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Personally, I love using them both. Which makes a more powerful archer, and why?

I voted Coran, from a strickly "archer" point of view. This can be mathematically proven...

Number Cruncher:

Kivan at 161xp: level 8 warrior
13 Base THAC0,
+2 bonus Missile THAC0 from Dex 17,
+1 bonus THAC0 from Bow Specialization.
This equals an Adjusted THAC0 of 7 with a bow.

Coran at 161xp: level 7 warrior multi-class
14 Base THAC0,
+3 bonus Missile THAC0 from Dex 20,
+3 bonus THAC0 from Bow Mastery.
This equals an Adjusted THAC0 of 5 with a bow.

Although, being a single-class warrior, Kivan would get increases in Base THAC0 just a little quicker throughout the game. But, Coran also gets a +3 damage bonus from Bow Mastery, whereas Kivan only gets a +2 damage bonus from Bow Specialization.

This is from a strickly "archer" point of view.

In terms of melee combat, I'd rather have Kivan's exceptional Strength (18/12, +1 THAC0 & +3 Damage Melee bonuses) over Coran's slight edge in AC bonus from higher Dexterity. And playing style would dictate if the greater Hit Points that Kivan would have (being a single-class warrior) is more useful than Coran's backstab. But in terms of group efforts, I'd rather have Coran's thieving abilities over Kivan's higher carrying capacity.

Thank God for GameBanshee. Where else could I go to mathematically prove anything?

Due to the strenght damage bonus of the game, Minsc beats them both with his 18/93 strenght. Equip him with the oh-so-easy-obtainable gauntlets of dextierity and you have an archer of true quality.

Thrifalas wrote:Due to the strenght damage bonus of the game, Minsc beats them both with his 18/93 strenght. Equip him with the oh-so-easy-obtainable gauntlets of dextierity and you have an archer of true quality.

I must respectfully disagree that Minsc's higher strength makes him a better archer. I always thought Strength bonuses didn't apply to Missile weapons. And those Gauntlets of 18 Dex don't give the same Missile THAC0 bonus that Coran's 20 Dex gives.

Anyways, archer mathematical data aside... Minsc IS the coolest, for sure. Go for the eyes, Boo!

Thrifalas wrote:Due to the strenght damage bonus of the game, Minsc beats them both with his 18/93 strenght. Equip him with the oh-so-easy-obtainable gauntlets of dextierity and you have an archer of true quality.

Strength bonuses are not applied to missile weapons. The only attribute that affects missile weapons is Dexterity.

In my very humble opinion, and I dont pretend to share the expertease of some of the people on this board, Kivan is the better choice for the archer of your party. This is mainly on account of the fact that you can pick him up much earlier in the game and thus mold him much more in your own image, making sure you improve him as an archer every step of the way. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, doesnt the fact that Coran has a touch of the old thief blood in him mean that he cant use the heavy sort of bows? Because, for my archer, I would think it imperitive that he could shoot with anything, but maybe I'm wrong on that assumption.

If you're focusing purely on ranged combat, then it's Coran. Though it's a close thing.
I play BGTutu in which Kivan is an Archer, allowing him Grandmastery in the longbow. However, I also use multiclass Grandmastery patch, so Coran would be able to get it too. In my view, they're both excellent archers, the two best in the game, with Kivan slightly below Coran in hit percentage (though Kivan always seems to get more kills...).
It really doesn't matter which you use. Just depends on your personal taste (i.e. which character you like more) and party balance. If you need an archer who can hold his own and is more than adequate in melee, pick Kivan. If you are lacking a thief or are a fan of backstabbing, pick Coran.

(Oh yeah...gauntlets of ogre power make Coran a very good melee too, but again it depends on your party. I usually take both Kivan and Coran, give Kivan the bracers of archery, Coran the gauntlets of ogre power, and that makes them both supremely powerful characters)

Spaceman wrote:In my very humble opinion, and I dont pretend to share the expertease of some of the people on this board, Kivan is the better choice for the archer of your party. This is mainly on account of the fact that you can pick him up much earlier in the game and thus mold him much more in your own image, making sure you improve him as an archer every step of the way. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, doesnt the fact that Coran has a touch of the old thief blood in him mean that he cant use the heavy sort of bows? Because, for my archer, I would think it imperitive that he could shoot with anything, but maybe I'm wrong on that assumption.

Regarding Kivan being readily available early on, that's a great point. Kivan is definitely worth more to the overall game of Baldur's Gate, because he can help you almost from day one, since you can go get him right away. Obtaining him at an earlier level allows for maximum Hit Point manipulation, making him MUCH better in overall combat, imho. Although, I seem to recall he comes with Bow Specialization (even if picked up asap), and since this is as high as rangers can go with a weapon, I'm not sure how he can be improved as an archer thereafter.

I think Coran (i.e. fighter/thieves) can use Long Bows, because he comes with one when you pick him up, iirc. And I think needing an 18 Strength to use a Composite Long Bow is a BGII thing. So, I *think* Coran can use any bow found in BG1. Anyone know for sure?

Again, just from the "Who's the more powerful archer?" standpoint, Coran has *slightly* better bonuses to Missile THAC0 & Damage. But if I had to pick someone for my group, and especially if I already had a thief, I'd go with Kivan. But Rhûn said it best:
It really doesn't matter which you use. Just depends on your personal taste (i.e. which character you like more) and party balance. If you need an archer who can hold his own and is more than adequate in melee, pick Kivan. If you are lacking a thief or are a fan of backstabbing, pick Coran.

CFM wrote: I think Coran (i.e. fighter/thieves) can use Long Bows, because he comes with one when you pick him up, iirc. And I think needing an 18 Strength to use a Composite Long Bow is a BGII thing. So, I *think* Coran can use any bow found in BG1. Anyone know for sure?

Coran can use any bow, and comes with an "illegal" 20 DEX and *** in Bow.

Never seen this Coran bloke in the five times through the game... unless he was the guy I killed near Gullykin, by the bridge (I think, so long since I actually WENT to Gullykin in a game...)...
But either way, Kivan is oh-so-much better due to him hating one of the badguys for killing his friends/family/whatever (well it has been several years since I've used Kivan as well... been using Ajantis...). From the role playing aspect I like playing the game from, Kivan is definitely better than anyone else.

DaemonJ wrote:Strength bonuses are not applied to missile weapons. The only attribute that affects missile weapons is Dexterity.

Just cause the manual says so doesn't mean it's true. Havn't you wondered why it's 20x easier to play through the game with all character equipped with bows than melee? Or why a 1d6 (or whatever) bow can hit for 10 damage?

A friend of mine pointed it out a while ago, that they forgot to implement the strenght bonus only on melee weapons. That, combined with the wonderful "2 attacks per round since you dont need to block" physics of DnD is why bows makes the games so much easier.

No, I have a hard time finding any official statement about it, but I'm pretty sure it's true. It explains the utter imbalance of bows in the game. I havn't had time (or find any need) to run tests about it, but I might the next time I install the game. Or anyone of you can if you feel up for it.

Untill the opposite is proven; yes. strenght matters.

Spaceman wrote:In my very humble opinion...Kivan is the better choice for the archer of your party. This is mainly on account of the fact that you can pick him up much earlier in the game and thus mold him much more in your own image, making sure you improve him as an archer every step of the way...

Unfortunately, no matter how much you try to develop Kivan's skill with a bow, he will never be better than Coran with a bow. It comes down to two simple things: 1) Coran has three proficiency points in Bows, and Kivan can never have more than two proficiency points in Bows, and 2) Coran has 20 Dexterity, which is higher than Kivan's could ever be no matter how many Tomes and items you use.

Incidentally, Khalid also makes a good archer. His Dexterity is 16, which isn't bad, and he can put at least two proficiency points in Bows. I can't remember the rules for BG1, so I'm not sure if Fighters can put three proficiency points in any weapon type, but Rangers and multi-class characters are limited to two proficiency points.

"Who's better in melee" or "who is the best overall warrior" are completely separate questions. The Gauntlets of Dexterity, the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and the various Tomes tend to even things out. (If an NPC warrior in my party has 18/xx Strength, I sometimes give him the Manual of Gainful Exercise so his Strength will be 19.) Coran's backstabbing is nothing to be sneezed at--for that matter, neither is Imoen's. It's debatable whether Kivan and Minsc should be wearing heavy plate armor since they're Rangers (remember Stealth?), but since they CAN wear it, most people play them as tanks instead of scouts. You wouldn't do that with Coran (his sneaking, backstabbing, and sniping are just too useful), so maybe we're talking about apples and oranges.

Thrifalas wrote:Just cause the manual says so doesn't mean it's true. Havn't you wondered why it's 20x easier to play through the game with all character equipped with bows than melee? Or why a 1d6 (or whatever) bow can hit for 10 damage?

A friend of mine pointed it out a while ago, that they forgot to implement the strenght bonus only on melee weapons. That, combined with the wonderful "2 attacks per round since you dont need to block" physics of DnD is why bows makes the games so much easier.

No, I have a hard time finding any official statement about it, but I'm pretty sure it's true. It explains the utter imbalance of bows in the game. I havn't had time (or find any need) to run tests about it, but I might the next time I install the game. Or anyone of you can if you feel up for it.

Until the opposite is proven; yes. strenght matters.

I don't have Baldur's Gate installed right now, so I can't test it either. But it would be very easy to test. Just create two Fighters in a multiplayer game, one with 18/xx Strength, one with 14 Strength, and both with one proficiency point in Bows and let them do some target practice with some non-magical bows and arrows. Record the damage ranges, and pretty soon (after less than 20 shots) it will be apparent whether a Strength bonus is in effect.

There isn't a Strength bonus that I'm aware of. I've had Imoen fire fifty shots with her Strength nine against something and never get more than 6 Damage, while my 18/00 Strength Fighter could fire the same amount of shots and still not get more than 6 Damage. Unless that's in normal Baldur's Gate, since I play Tales of the Sword Coast, then I'm not sure.
You more than 6 Damage hits could just be Critical Hits, which deal double/+1d6 Damage, I believe...

If this Coran really is as good as he's made out to be, then he's probably better, but since Kivan is far too cool...

It's debatable whether Kivan and Minsc should be wearing heavy plate armor since they're Rangers (remember Stealth?), but since they CAN wear it, most people play them as tanks instead of scouts. You wouldn't do that with Coran (his sneaking, backstabbing, and sniping are just too useful), so maybe we're talking about apples and oranges.

Yes, they should have Full Plate. My main Character is, right now, a Mage, so I need people who can take down Hobgoblins, Ogres and Gnolls with relative ease along with Branwen while Imoen, Dyhanheir and my Main stand back and take out enemy archers/mage casters at range or support my Fighters. But that's beside the point. Even if my main Character were a Fighter, I'd still give them Armour because they compliment my Character well as they tank their way through the enemy (While Branwen stays back with Dyhanheir and Imoen).

I just did an experiment to see if a strength bonus applies to arrows. The answer is no, there is no strength bonus, at least not when you use normal, unenchanted arrows. (Some arrows that were made incorrectly might get a Strength bonus by mistake, but I know of at least one that was corrected by the DudleyFix Pack.) This applies to TOTSC with the official patch installed. No Baldurdash Fix Pack and no mods.

My methodology was simple. I created a character who had 18/95 Strength and 14 Dexterity and one proficiency point in Bows, and I equipped him with a long bow. Just for good measure, I had him quaff a Potion of Fire Giant Strength, which gave him 22 Strength. That gave him a +10 damage bonus. So if there was a Strength bonus in effect, that means that each arrow should have done at least 11 points of damage, right? Well, he only did 2 points of damage on the first shot. That's all I needed to see--one shot. No Strength bonus was in effect.

While I was at it, I also checked how many proficiency points a single-class Fighter can have. A 1st Level Fighter starts with 4 proficiency points; you can put a maximum of 2 points in any weapon type. At 3rd Level, you get another proficiency point, and you can put 3 points in any weapon type. At 6th Level, you get another proficiency point, and you can put 4 points in any weapon type. It stays the same at 7th and 8th Level before you reach the 161,000 point experience cap. If you use an experience cap remover and reach 9th Level, you get another proficiency point, and you can put 5 points in any weapon type. I'm not saying you should put all of your extra proficiency points in Bows, but if you want the best archer, a Fighter with 4 (or more) proficiency points is the way to go.

I think a character with 19 Dexterity gets the same missile attack bonus as a character who has 20 Dexterity. So here's what I recommend if you want the best archer. Create an Elven Fighter with 19 Dexterity and put as many points in Bows as you can. I can't remember if the +1 bonus for longswords and longbows was implemented in BG1, but an enchanted longbow might be the way to go. He'll be better than Coran when he's 6th Level.

I think a character with 19 Dexterity gets the same missile attack bonus as a character who has 20 Dexterity. So here's what I recommend if you want the best archer. Create an Elven Fighter with 19 Dexterity and put as many points in Bows as you can. I can't remember if the +1 bonus for longswords and longbows was implemented in BG1, but an enchanted longbow might be the way to go. He'll be better than Coran when he's 6th Level.

Correct (Checked my old and battered Baldur's Gate manual).
So overall, a custom made Elf Bow-Fighter is superior to this Coran, who is in turn superior to the always brilliant Kivan (despite Kivan having better fluff).

Darmort wrote:Correct (Checked my old and battered Baldur's Gate manual).

Although I think the +1 to hit was implemented, don't use the manual as your source.

Darmort wrote:So overall, a custom made Elf Bow-Fighter is superior to this Coran, who is in turn superior to the always brilliant Kivan (despite Kivan having better fluff).

Yes, and you can reach **** in Bow in an unmodded game. That's very good and powerful, but the point of this thread is who the better archer is of the two NPCs. As a matter of fact, you can create a better version of just about any of the NPCs.

Thrifalas wrote:Just cause the manual says so doesn't mean it's true. Havn't you wondered why it's 20x easier to play through the game with all character equipped with bows than melee? Or why a 1d6 (or whatever) bow can hit for 10 damage?

Regardless of whether Imoen, Khalid, or any other character was shooting a bow, I have never done more than 6 points of damage unless it was an enchanted arrow. Even then any additional damage was the equal of the enchantment.

Thrifalas wrote:Untill the opposite is proven; yes. strenght matters.

You are certainly free to believe what you want.

Coran has better dexterity, better bow mastery, and can use all of the same items that Kivan can. As far as archery goes, Coran is definatly better.

Kivan. He gets the extra 1/2 an attack per round about half the game sooner. Without TotSC, Coran doens't get this extra attack at all, since he will be capped at level 6 fighter.

Discussing Thaco is meaningless. Kivan hits more often because he shoots more often (that's why he gets more kills, as was mentioned in a previous post). It's like having a permanent half-haste.

I play Tutu however, so Kivan just blows Coran completely out of the water, since Kivan gets BG2's archer kit.