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Human, Fighter/Thief (lvl7/lvl8 dual classed), Neutral Good (+1 rep)

Attributes:
Base atts (if I can go through multiple times):
18/00 str, 18 dex, X con, 18 int, 3 wiz, X cha
(x is high of a number as possible, with any whatever re-roll stats you are happy with)
(I choose these stats because it makes it faster to get all of the books)

Atts after books (if I can go through multiple times): 25/25/25/25/25/25

Base atts (if I can't go through multiple times):
18/00 str, 18 dex, 18 dex, 3 int, 3 wiz, 18 cha


Proficiencies:
Fighter start -- Long sword **, Bow **
Fighter lvl 7 -- Long sword ****, Bow **
Theif start -- Short sword *, Missles *
Thief lvl 3 -- Short sword *, Missles *
(Wait until level 8 to lvl up)
Fighter/Theif end -- Long sword ***** (!!!), Bow *** (!!), Short sword *, Missles *

Gear:
Normal stuff:
Sword/Shield -- Drizzt's defender, Large Shield +2
Bow -- Composite Long Bow +1
Full Plate Mail
Balduran's Helm
Balduran's Cloak (or Cloak of Displacement or Algernon's Cloak, when needed)
Golden Girdle (or Girdle of Piercing or Girdle of Bluntness, when needed)
Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise
Boots of Speed


Rings/Amulet (if I can go through twice):
Amulet of Protection +1
The Claw of Kazgaroth
The Claw of Kazgaroth

Rings/Amulet (if I can't go through twice):
Ring of Protection +2
Ring of Fire Resistance
(No amulet needed)
(I use Ring of Fire Resistance instead of The Claw of Kazgaroth because the -2 con hurts alot more at 18 con than at 25)



What do you guys think about this character build?

LordTerror wrote:Proficiencies:
Fighter start -- Long sword **, Bow **
Fighter lvl 7 -- Long sword ****, Bow **

What is the advantage in having four proficiency points in Large Swords? Why not put a third proficiency point in Bows where it will make a difference?

LordTerror wrote:Theif start -- Short sword *, Missles *
Thief lvl 3 -- Short sword *, Missles *
(Wait until level 8 to lvl up)
Fighter/Theif end -- Long sword ***** (!!!), Bow *** (!!), Short sword *, Missles *

Unfortunately, BG1 (unlike BG2) does not let a dual-classed Fighter/Thief add extra proficiency points to weapon types that already have a proficiency point assigned to them. I just tried it recently after I installed BG1, TOTSC, the official patch, and Baldurdash and I was disappointed.

Aside from that, a question springs to mind: how are you going to play a character that stays at 3rd Level until you have enough experience for 8th Level? (I think that's called "level squatting" or something like that.) I don't object to munchkinism, but I just don't see how it's practical unless you have a party that does all the fighting for your main character (who shares the experience but doesn't do any of the work).

Your build isn't possible in BG1.

VonDondu wrote:What is the advantage in having four proficiency points in Large Swords? Why not put a third proficiency point in Bows where it will make a difference?

Because I was aiming for Grand Mastery in sword (see below) and because I use bow so rarely. In the end (when you have 19 or 25 strength with the Defender), sword is much more effective than a bow in most cases.

VonDondu wrote:Unfortunately, BG1 (unlike BG2) does not let a dual-classed Fighter/Thief add extra proficiency points to weapon types that already have a proficiency point assigned to them. I just tried it recently after I installed BG1, TOTSC, the official patch, and Baldurdash and I was disappointed.

Thanks, I didn't know about that. I just assumed it was the same as BG2.

VonDondu wrote:Aside from that, a question springs to mind: how are you going to play a character that stays at 3rd Level until you have enough experience for 8th Level?

A theif with 18/00 str, 18 dex and good gear is rather easy to level. A group is optional.

kmonster wrote:Your build isn't possible in BG1.

Yea, VonDondu pointed out a problem with the proficiencies, but do you see something else that is wrong?

I don't see why you couldn't create a 7th Level Fighter dualled to an 8th Level Thief with starting stats 18/00, 18, 18, 3, 3, 18 in BG1. It's permissable under the TOTSC experience cap (64,000 + 70,000). However, I don't agree that it's the "perfect" character. For one thing, I think you need Intelligence 9 to read scrolls and use wands, and a perfect Fighter/Thief should be able to use all available items. It isn't hard to reroll a little while longer to get enough points for Intelligence 9.

You also need to consider hit points. I don't think there's any difficulty setting that lets you automatically get maximum hit points, so you have to reload practically every time you level up. If you stay at 3rd Level and wait until you have enough experience for 8th Level, it will be practically impossible to get maximum hit points.

I would prefer a 6th Level Fighter dualled to a 9th Level Thief. Losing a Fighter level will only cost you one point on your THAC0. I'm not sure about their saving throws, but a 6th Fighter/9th Thief with Constitution 18 can have 2 more hit points than a 7th Fighter/8th Thief because of the extra Thief hit die. If you use only one Manual of Bodily Health (Constitution 19), the 9th Level character can have 1 more hit point than the 8th Level character. The biggest benefit in having a 9th Level Thief is the 5x backstab multiplier (versus 4x), which to me outweighs everything else.

Regarding proficiency points, what I meant to ask was, what does four proficiency points (or five, for that matter) give you that you don't get with three proficiency points? I don't think you get any extra damage or any extra attacks. By constrast, going from two points to three points makes a significant difference. That's why I would rather put three points in Bows. Even if you don't use bows all that much, a "perfect" character should be the best he can be at everything, in my opinion.

Vonny: BG1 uses the GM the way it was intended, and I think ***** adds an extra full attack, and a huge bonus in damage.

For some reason, BG1 won't allow a 5th star in any proficiency though.

Offtopic: I just got the best roll I've ever had on the 5th or 6th roll: 100 (not a Fighter, so no exceptional STR).

Klorox wrote:VOfftopic: I just got the best roll I've ever had on the 5th or 6th roll: 100 (not a Fighter, so no exceptional STR).

Hehe, I rolled that as well once. That's something you're not dissmissing.

Turns out I'm terrible at math. I "only" rolled a 95.

Klorox wrote:Vonny: BG1 uses the GM the way it was intended, and I think ***** adds an extra full attack, and a huge bonus in damage.

For some reason, BG1 won't allow a 5th star in any proficiency though.

I don't know why you had a problem with that. The game engine lets a 3rd Level Fighter put a fifth proficiency point in a weapon if he starts with four points in that weapon. (I know that's cheating, but it proves a point.) The only limitation occurs at character creation. You start with four proficiency points, and you can't put more than two points in any weapon type. That sets the stage for everything else. You get an extra proficiency point at 3rd Level, 6th Level, and 9th Level. If you do the math, that means you can have three proficiency points in a weapon at 3rd level (no more points are available to add more), four proficiency points in the same weapon at 6th level (no more points are available to add more), and five proficiency points in the same weapon at 9th level (which isn't possible without using an experience cap remover).

Here's what I know about proficiency points. Two points gives you a +1 THAC0 bonus and an extra half attack. Three points gives you a +3 THAC0 bonus (the number of attacks stays the same). Four points doesn't give you anything I can see (maybe more damage?). Five points gives you an extra attack. With a +3 THAC0 bonus and an extra half attack, three points seems to be the sweet spot. I don't know about damage and speed factor bonuses, which are the only other differences I can think of.

LordTerror wrote:A theif with 18/00 str, 18 dex and good gear is rather easy to level. A group is optional.

I don't know about that. I've been playing with a 5th Level human Fighter (getting ready to dual to Thief), a 5th Level Elven Fighter, and Imoen (5th Level Thief dualled to a Conjurer, with Thief class currently inactive) and they still can't take on a party of ogres and ogrillons, and it takes two of them to kill a flesh golem. I haven't been to Nashkel yet, but they have already covered a lot of ground. I've cleared out various areas such as Beregost Temple (lots of experience from the wolves), Ulcaster School, and the areas west of Beregost (flesh golems, ogres, and sirines). The reward money for Bassilus let me buy full plate armor from Taerom, and they've got two Rings of Protection +1, an Amulet of Protection +1, platemail and large shield, a +1 bastard sword, a +1 two-handed sword, a +1 sling, a composite longbow, a +1 composite longbow, one ordinary helm and a Helm of Defense, and Boots of Stealth. (I can't afford anything else.) I know where to get Varscona and Rashad's Talon, but I haven't been there yet. I found the Manual of Bodily Health, and I can get the Tome of Leadeship and Influence at the Gnoll Stronghold, but the other tomes aren't available until Chapter Five or Chapter Six. I don't see how a 3rd Level Thief can kill all those things by himself even with 90 hit points, Shadow Thief Armor, and a +2 longsword. I'm wary of ankhegs and basilisks (they're not easy to hit with THAC0 17). You'll need a lot of healing potions and you'll probably have to reload a lot. Do you think you can kill Drizzt to get Defender?

By the way, I said earlier that an 8th Level Fighter gets an extra half attack per round, but it actually takes effect at 7th Level. (The next extra half attack is granted at 13th level.) This means that a 7th Level Fighter dualled to an 8th Level Thief gets more attacks per round than a 6th Level Fighter dualled to a 9th Level Thief (that is, half an attack). But a 9th Level Thief gets a 5x backstab multiplier and more thieving points, and his saving throws are better: 11/10/10/13/11 versus 10/12/11/12/13. Given the way I play (backstabbing the monsters, expecially the big ones), I still think a 6th Level Fighter dualled to a 9th Level Thief has the edge.

VonDondu wrote:I don't see why you couldn't create a 7th Level Fighter dualled to an 8th Level Thief with starting stats 18/00, 18, 18, 3, 3, 18 in BG1. It's permissable under the TOTSC experience cap (64,000 + 70,000). However, I don't agree that it's the "perfect" character. For one thing, I think you need Intelligence 9 to read scrolls and use wands, and a perfect Fighter/Thief should be able to use all available items. It isn't hard to reroll a little while longer to get enough points for Intelligence 9.

Yea, you can get 9 Intelligence if you re-roll enough. Didn't know Int had a use, so I never bothered re-rolling to get more.

VonDondu wrote:You also need to consider hit points. I don't think there's any difficulty setting that lets you automatically get maximum hit points, so you have to reload practically every time you level up. If you stay at 3rd Level and wait until you have enough experience for 8th Level, it will be practically impossible to get maximum hit points.

You only get hit points when your dual classed level is higher than your first classed level. This means that a 7/8 fighter/theif will get 7 fighter levels and 1 theif level (HP wise). In fact, this combination has the second most possible hit points in the game. The first is a pure fighter, which has 4 hp more ....

(8 lvl * 10 hp/lvl) - ((7 lvl * 10 hp/lvl) + (1 lvl * 6 hp/lvl)) = 4 hp

VonDondu wrote:I would prefer a 6th Level Fighter dualled to a 9th Level Thief. Losing a Fighter level will only cost you one point on your THAC0. I'm not sure about their saving throws, but a 6th Fighter/9th Thief with Constitution 18 can have 2 more hit points than a 7th Fighter/8th Thief because of the extra Thief hit die. If you use only one Manual of Bodily Health (Constitution 19), the 9th Level character can have 1 more hit point than the 8th Level character. The biggest benefit in having a 9th Level Thief is the 5x backstab multiplier (versus 4x), which to me outweighs everything else.

A lvl 6/9 fighter/thief has 4 less hp than a 7/8 fighter/thief:

((7 lvl * 10 hp/lvl) + (1 lvl * 6 hp/lvl)) - ((6 lvl * 10 hp/lvl) + (2 lvl * 6 hp/lvl)) = 4 hp

The most important reason to get lvl 7 is the +1/2 attack/round, though. For a sword, this is a net damage (per time) increase of 33%.

Let's do a some math:
19 str = +8 dmg
Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise = +2 dmg
Defender bonus = +3 dmg
*** Proficiency = +3 dmg
Average damage = (1+8)/2 + 8 + 2 + 2 + 3 = 20.5
33% increase in average damage = .33 * 19.5 = 6.83 or about 7


So...if you did 7 more damage with each hit, would you consider it worth going from 6 to 7?

Also, one other small bonus of getting level 7 is the +1 thac0.

VonDondu wrote:Regarding proficiency points, what I meant to ask was, what does four proficiency points (or five, for that matter) give you that you don't get with three proficiency points? I don't think you get any extra damage or any extra attacks. By constrast, going from two points to three points makes a significant difference. That's why I would rather put three points in Bows. Even if you don't use bows all that much, a "perfect" character should be the best he can be at everything, in my opinion.

Going from *** to **** only gives +1 damage, but is worth it for me.

Let's do a compairison between sword and bow:

BOW:
str/dex = +0 dmg
Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise = +2 dmg
+1 Composite bow = +2 dmg
*** Proficiency = +3 dmg
Average bow damage (per hit) = (1+6)/2 + 2 + 2 + 3 = 10.5
Average bow damage (per round) = 3 * 10.5 = 31.5

SWORD:
19 str = +8 dmg
*** Proficiency = +3 dmg
Defender = +3 dmg
Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise = +2 dmg
Average sword damage (per hit) = (1+8)/2 + 8 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 20.5
Average sword damage (per round) = 2 * 19.5 = 41

(Note: "Per round" damage is assuming ALL attacks hit, which is not the case).

So, sword does more damage but there are other things to take into account:

Pros of sword:
-Better thac0 (with this setup and with most 18/00++ str fighters).
-Doesn't require ammo.
-Allows your strongest character to be in front, while your party is safe in the back.
-By far the best back-stabbing weapon (higher damage than daggers and clubs).
-Even better thac0/dmg at 25 str...bow doesn't get these bonuses.
-A bonus to AC ranging from 1 (Shield) to 5 (Defender and +2 Large Shield).

Pros of bow:
-Ranged weapon.
-Can change ammo to get an advantage at the expense of money.

(Note: Pros of sword/bow are based upon the usage for this build. Obviously bow is much better in compairison if you have low strength).

I go for **** in sword because I use bow so rarely. If you play this character for a while, I think you would tend to agree with my decision. You are right though, there is a huge difference between ** and ***. Changing to *** in both sword and bow would be ok if you liked using bow. I guess that part is still preference.

VonDondu wrote:Here's what I know about proficiency points. Two points gives you a +1 THAC0 bonus and an extra half attack. Three points gives you a +3 THAC0 bonus (the number of attacks stays the same). Four points doesn't give you anything I can see (maybe more damage?). Five points gives you an extra attack. With a +3 THAC0 bonus and an extra half attack, three points seems to be the sweet spot. I don't know about damage and speed factor bonuses, which are the only other differences I can think of.

The full table is on page 93 of your manual.

VonDondu wrote:I don't know about that. I've been playing with a 5th Level human Fighter (getting ready to dual to Thief), a 5th Level Elven Fighter, and Imoen (5th Level Thief dualled to a Conjurer, with Thief class currently inactive) and they still can't take on a party of ogres and ogrillons, and it takes two of them to kill a flesh golem. I haven't been to Nashkel yet, but they have already covered a lot of ground. I've cleared out various areas such as Beregost Temple (lots of experience from the wolves), Ulcaster School, and the areas west of Beregost (flesh golems, ogres, and sirines). The reward money for Bassilus let me buy full plate armor from Taerom, and they've got two Rings of Protection +1, an Amulet of Protection +1, platemail and large shield, a +1 bastard sword, a +1 two-handed sword, a +1 sling, a composite longbow, a +1 composite longbow, one ordinary helm and a Helm of Defense, and Boots of Stealth. (I can't afford anything else.) I know where to get Varscona and Rashad's Talon, but I haven't been there yet. I found the Manual of Bodily Health, and I can get the Tome of Leadeship and Influence at the Gnoll Stronghold, but the other tomes aren't available until Chapter Five or Chapter Six. I don't see how a 3rd Level Thief can kill all those things by himself even with 90 hit points, Shadow Thief Armor, and a +2 longsword. I'm wary of ankhegs and basilisks (they're not easy to hit with THAC0 17). You'll need a lot of healing potions and you'll probably have to reload a lot.

-17 thac0 is low, are you sure you have 18/00 str?
-Why are you using a long sword on a theif? Do you even have proficieny in it?
-Get the Dagger of Venom or Defender (depending on your proficieny)
-Get Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise
-Use back-stab on hard monsters

PS: What are Varscona and Rashad's Talon? Mod items?

VonDondu wrote:Do you think you can kill Drizzt to get Defender?

Yes, there are two easy ways:

1) Get lots of thac0 bonuses, boots of speed, a bow, potion of power, potion of speed, and lots (60-100) of good arrows (+2 reccomended). Use the potions and gear, attack Drizzt with bow and arrows. When he gets close, run away and attack from a range. Keep doing this until he dies.

2) Get a wand of monster summoning and lots of mages and clerics. Have all characters equip ranged weapons. Prepare alot of minions, haste spells, chant spells, and some other area of effect enchantments. Cast all of the minions, cast some area of effect spells. Attack drizzt. Keep replacing minions and enchantments. Use idle characters to attack with their ranged weapons. Keep doing this until he dies.

VonDondu wrote:By the way, I said earlier that an 8th Level Fighter gets an extra half attack per round, but it actually takes effect at 7th Level. (The next extra half attack is granted at 13th level.) This means that a 7th Level Fighter dualled to an 8th Level Thief gets more attacks per round than a 6th Level Fighter dualled to a 9th Level Thief (that is, half an attack). But a 9th Level Thief gets a 5x backstab multiplier and more thieving points, and his saving throws are better: 11/10/10/13/11 versus 10/12/11/12/13. Given the way I play (backstabbing the monsters, expecially the big ones), I still think a 6th Level Fighter dualled to a 9th Level Thief has the edge.

I doubt you will need to do much back-stabbing once you have completed this build.

LordTerror wrote:You only get hit points when your dual classed level is higher than your first classed level. This means that a 7/8 fighter/theif will get 7 fighter levels and 1 theif level (HP wise). In fact, this combination has the second most possible hit points in the game. The first is a pure fighter, which has 4 hp more ....

(8 lvl * 10 hp/lvl) - ((7 lvl * 10 hp/lvl) + (1 lvl * 6 hp/lvl)) = 4 hp

A lvl 6/9 fighter/thief has 4 less hp than a 7/8 fighter/thief:

((7 lvl * 10 hp/lvl) + (1 lvl * 6 hp/lvl)) - ((6 lvl * 10 hp/lvl) + (2 lvl * 6 hp/lvl)) = 4 hp

That's not quite right. There is also a Constitution bonus. A character with 18 Constitution gets +4 hit points for every Fighter level and +2 hit points for every Thief level. So a 6th Level Fighter/9th Level Thief would have (6x14) + (3x8) = 108 hit points maximum. A 7th Level Fighter/8th Level Thief would have (7x14) + (1x8) = 106 hit points maximum. One Manual of Bodily Health (19 Constitution) would change that to (6x15) + (3x8) = 114 hit points maximum and (7x15) + (1x8) = 113 hit points maximum. (In case you're wondering, the Constitution modifier is different in BG2, but this is the way it works in BG1.)

LordTerror wrote:PS: What are Varscona and Rashad's Talon? Mod items?

They're standard items. Varscona is the +2 longsword you get from Greywolf, and Rashad's Talon is the +2 scimitar you find on the roof of Durlag's Tower. They're two of the best swords in the game. Only Drizzt's swords and Durlag's +3 two-handed sword are better.

As for your other tips, I thought you intended to play a solo character rather than using a party. But I guess that's neither here nor there. The thing about using swords in melee is that your opponents have a chance to hit you. If you're trying to fight two ogre berserkers and two ogrillons, they can collectively dish out damage a lot faster than you can. So can Drizzt. So my point was that you can't beat them in a fair fight. Having several characters who can do two or three attacks per round with ranged weapons before the monsters ever reach you keeps the odds in your favor and makes a good argument for using ranged weapons.

Since this character is only designed for BG I anyway. Why not save yourself all the hassle of Dual classing and just go with an Elf Multi fighter thief and take advantage of the plus one to hit with long sword and long bow. You will also have full use of your abilities the whole game. If you had 9 int you could use wands and solo. Plus you would have 2 extra proficiencies for maby the dagger of venom, also the silver dagger(+4,lanthroscopes)

Use a dwarf instead. Regeneration, far better saving throws and more HP. Gnome isn't bad either.

VonDondu wrote:That's not quite right. There is also a Constitution bonus. A character with 18 Constitution gets +4 hit points for every Fighter level and +2 hit points for every Thief level. So a 6th Level Fighter/9th Level Thief would have (6x14) + (3x8) = 108 hit points maximum. A 7th Level Fighter/8th Level Thief would have (7x14) + (1x8) = 106 hit points maximum. One Manual of Bodily Health (19 Constitution) would change that to (6x15) + (3x8) = 114 hit points maximum and (7x15) + (1x8) = 113 hit points maximum. (In case you're wondering, the Constitution modifier is different in BG2, but this is the way it works in BG1.)

Oops, you are right.

VonDondu wrote:They're standard items. Varscona is the +2 longsword you get from Greywolf, and Rashad's Talon is the +2 scimitar you find on the roof of Durlag's Tower. They're two of the best swords in the game. Only Drizzt's swords and Durlag's +3 two-handed sword are better.

Ahh, "Longsword +2" and "Scrimitar +2"... I didn't know they had names.

VonDondu wrote:As for your other tips, I thought you intended to play a solo character rather than using a party. But I guess that's neither here nor there.

Er, I intended this character the be built using a party, yes.
Once it is complete, though, it is able to solo anything in the game with ease (with the exception of Sarevok and Drizzt, which take some strategy to defeat solo).

VonDondu wrote:The thing about using swords in melee is that your opponents have a chance to hit you.

The chances are 1 in 20 (only critical hits can actually hit you) for most monsters due the the incredibly low AC of this build.

When playing solo, you won't beable to kill every monster at a range -- you only get a few "free" shots. After they engage you, you will have a huge disadvantage in combat compared to sword.

When playing in a team, having one "tank" (this build) run up and attack while your party uses ranged weapons is a VERY effective strategy.

VonDondu wrote:If you're trying to fight two ogre berserkers and two ogrillons, they can collectively dish out damage a lot faster than you can.

LOL, no. They explode when they get hit. None will beable to hit you except when they inflict a critical hit. Even then, you have a helmet so they don't do alot of damage, anyway.

VonDondu wrote:So can Drizzt. So my point was that you can't beat them in a fair fight.

Yes, but no character can defeat Drizzt in a fair fight. (Assuming my speed boots + speed potion + bow method is not considered fair ).

VonDondu wrote:Having several characters who can do two or three attacks per round with ranged weapons before the monsters ever reach you keeps the odds in your favor and makes a good argument for using ranged weapons.

Yes, it's a great combination for a party. (Pure ranged or all but 1 ranged).

This build easily can defeat that whole party by himself, though. I have tested it by letting my main character get Dire Charmed.

Jordoo wrote:Since this character is only designed for BG I anyway. Why not save yourself all the hassle of Dual classing and just go with an Elf Multi fighter thief and take advantage of the plus one to hit with long sword and long bow. You will also have full use of your abilities the whole game. If you had 9 int you could use wands and solo. Plus you would have 2 extra proficiencies for maby the dagger of venom, also the silver dagger(+4,lanthroscopes)

Pros of Elf Multi-class:
...+1 thac0 on Long Sword and Bow ... (See cons)
...Have abilities for the whole game ... (This is a very nice bonus for creating the character, but I care about the end result and not how easy it is to get there).
...+1 dex compared to human ... (18->19 dex only helps bow and not AC...19->20 doesn't help at all).
...Can use the proficiency elsewere ... (Once this build is complete, only Long Sword will be very effective)

Cons of Elf Multi-class:
...Cannot have *** therefore lowering both Long Sword and Bow by 2 thac0 and 1 dmg (net change of -1 thac0/dmg)...Net change of -1thac0/-2dmg if you use **** on Long Sword
...Less overall hitpoints than dual class
...-1 con compared to human and both 17->18 and 18->19 have effects for fighter

Overall, Elf multi-classing is probably much easier to create, but is less powerful in the end.

kmonster wrote:Use a dwarf instead. Regeneration, far better saving throws and more HP. Gnome isn't bad either.

Mutli-classed characters have less hitpoints than dual classed characters. The increase in constitution doesn't overcome this fact. Also, by the end of the game you will have +1 con and +1 dex. The dwarf will go from 17 to 18 (increases AC) and the human will go from 18 to 19 (doesn't increase AC) so AC wise, dwarf is just the same. A human will go from 18 to 19 con (increases HP) and the dwarf will go from 19 to 20 con (doesn't increase HP) so HP wise dwarf is just the same (before the multi-class issue).

Regeneration and saving throws are nice bonuses, but dual class has +2 thac0, +2 dmg, and more HP which are more important.

Edit: Oops, the elf bonus is +1 thac0, not +1thac0/dmg. Fixed.

LordTerror wrote:A human will go from 18 to 19 con (increases HP) and the dwarf will go from 19 to 20 con (doesn't increase HP) so HP wise dwarf is just the same (before the multi-class issue).

Regeneration and saving throws are nice bonuses, but dual class has +2 thac0, +2 dmg, and more HP which are more important.

A 20 CON is +6 HP/level, one more than a 19 CON.

A multiclassed Fighter/Thief with a 20 CON at maximum TotSC level will have 99 HP.
A dualclassed Fighter 7>Thief8 with a 19 CON will have 113 HP, which is significant.

But remember, that multiclassed Dwarf will regenerate, which is impossible for any other character in BG1, will have much better saving throws (therefore will take less damage in the first place), and will have abilities from both classes the whole time. And when you import to BG2, he'll be a lot better when you import to BG2 (access to both HLA pools, will have more Attacks per Round after reaching level 13 as a Fighter).

Neither character is a bad one, and you really can't go wrong though.

Klorox wrote:A 20 CON is +6 HP/level, one more than a 19 CON.

According to the BG1, ToSC, and SoA manuals, it's +5 HP/level. (ToB manual doesn't have the table included).

Klorox wrote:But remember, that multiclassed Dwarf will regenerate, which is impossible for any other character in BG1,

Actually, any character that has 19 or more constitution can regenerate. Humans can get 19 constitution early in the game, as the constitution book is easy to get.

Klorox wrote:will have much better saving throws (therefore will take less damage in the first place),

Yes, the saving throws are nice. Mages aren't really much of a problem though. This build hits 95% of the time (only critical misses actually miss vs. mages), does 20+ average damage per hit, and has boots of speed to get next to the mages quickly. Most mages die before they can even cast one spell.

Klorox wrote:and will have abilities from both classes the whole time.

Ya, this build isn't meant to be the perfect character to create, it's meant to be the perfect character once it is finished.

Klorox wrote:And when you import to BG2, he'll be a lot better when you import to BG2 (access to both HLA pools, will have more Attacks per Round after reaching level 13 as a Fighter).

Yea, this character isn't meant to be exported to BG2. A multi-class character isn't very good in BG2 because it can't use kits, though. You would be better off using a pure fighter for BG1, switching to Kensai in BG2 and dual classing (at level 24) to theif (level squatting from level 3 to 25 to get the best possible proficiencies). You could then get UAI which would nullify all of the Kensai's downsides (except the disability to use ranged weapons) thus giving you a "free" 8 thac0, 8 dmg, 6 speed factor, and 2 AC bonuses.

Klorox wrote:Neither character is a bad one, and you really can't go wrong though.

Yep, multi-class characters are useful in BG1, and Dwarf is one of the better ones for a Fighter/Theif.

1) I greatly disagree with you on the multiclassers in BG2 issue. Kits pale in comparison with what you get from a multiclasser.

2)How does a human with a 19 CON regenerate?

EDIT: BTW, you were right about only +5 HP/level from a 20 CON. At 20, regeneration is gained, and all 1's rolled for level-ups are considered 2's.

I like your character build if you have a group. Definately becomes very powerful. But if solo there is that problem of having no spell casting other than your inate abilities that you gain which are minimal. If you go with 9 int at least you can use scrolls and wands if you have tutu. Still many better builds or multi's to solo. Fighter/mage, cleric/ranger, cleric/illusionist, cleric/theif, almost any multi or dual with a cleric or mage will have an easier time especially in a game with 161,00 experiance cap. Unless of course you want to cheese through with Algernons cloak then you could solo easily with any character.

Don't get me wrong I like the build but to call it perfect, NO. I like many other builds and multi's better than yours and none of them are perfect either. The whole idea is to make it different each time and learn new tacticks based on your characters strengths or your teams strengths. A truely perfect character is no fun at all, since all stats would be 25 and they would be able to use every item and cast every spell. But would never do that since they could just spank everybody without tacking damage.

Klorox wrote:1) I greatly disagree with you on the multiclassers in BG2 issue. Kits pale in comparison with what you get from a multiclasser.

2)How does a human with a 19 CON regenerate?

EDIT: BTW, you were right about only +5 HP/level from a 20 CON. At 20, regeneration is gained, and all 1's rolled for level-ups are considered 2's.

1) Well, I disagree with you, but that is a bit off-topic.

2) Hm, you might be right... it might be 20 CON not 19. I will have to test that soon.

Jordoo wrote:I like your character build if you have a group. Definately becomes very powerful. But if solo there is that problem of having no spell casting other than your inate abilities that you gain which are minimal.

I disagree. You don't need any spells with this build. Once created, this character can solo any part of the game without using potions, reloading, or using any cheese. You would have to see it to believe it.

Jordoo wrote:Still many better builds or multi's to solo. Fighter/mage, cleric/ranger, cleric/illusionist, cleric/theif, almost any multi or dual with a cleric or mage will have an easier time especially in a game with 161,00 experiance cap.

I have tried soloing with all of those characters. None are even close to this build.

Edit: Actually, I have never tried cleric/illusionist, but I have tried cleric/mage and cleric/conjuror.

Once created you have already maxed out in experiance. I am talking about from start to finish. Your character doesn't just appear a dualed level 7 fighter level 8 theif. The character has to get there and its harder earlier on without spells, once you are at full power like I said good character. Still not perfect. None of them are. Cleric/ranger can do everything your character can due except backstab. Plus has access to all druid and cleric spells. Can summon an army of skelotons and pre buff as well as cast something as simple as doom whick makes a huge differance. Might not deal out as much damage with each hit but does plenty and has spells. Also would you get a strength modifier to damage with slings. Plus your racial enemy bonus. Yet this character is not perfect.