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What is going on????? Not that I am surprised... just totally disgusted.


BREAKING NEWS

Updated: 2 hours, 30 minutes ago
EVANSVILLE, Ind. - Four soldiers from the U.S. Army's 101st Airborne Division will be court-martialed for the alleged rape of an Iraqi girl and the murder of her family, and two will face the death penalty, the military ordered Wednesday.
The charges against the Fort Campbell soldiers stem from rape and murder of 14-year-old Abeer Qassim al-Janabi in her family's home in Mahmoudiya, about 20 miles south of Baghdad — a case that sparked international outrage and added more fuel to claims of abuse by U.S. forces in Iraq.
The charges came as the military announced that a total of eight soldiers would be court-martialied, with the four others to be tried in a separate court martial on charges of murdering Iraqi prisoners in northern Iraq's northern Salahuddin province during a raid on a village.
In the rape and murder case, military authorities said they would seek the death penalty against Sgt. Paul E. Cortez and Pfc. Jesse V. Spielman.
Spc. James P. Barker and Pfc. Bryan L. Howard are also accused in the rape and murders but will not face the death penalty, the military said in a statement.
Former Pvt. Steven Green, who was discharged for a personality disorder and arrested in North Carolina, will be tried in federal court in Kentucky. Green has pleaded not guilty to one count of rape and four counts of murder.
Military prosecutors have said the five — all from the division's 502nd Infantry Regiment — planned the attack from a checkpoint near the family's home, changed their clothing to hide their identities and set the girl's body on fire to destroy evidence.
In the other case, Pfc. Corey R. Clagett, Spc. William B. Hunsaker, Staff Sgt. Raymond L. Girouard and Spc. Juston R. Graber are accused of murdering three Iraqi men taken from a house May 9 on a marshy island outside Samarra, about 60 miles north of Baghdad.
This breaking story will be updated.
Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

I'd like to see the link to this, especially since it's coming from my state. IIRC, Indiana didn't have the death penalty, or so I thought.

Those alleged crimes were committed over six months ago, and they were in the news. You say you're disgusted now that charges have finally been brought against the accused. I'm a little bit confused about what you're saying.

Courts-martial in Iraq murder cases - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com

It is just too much. Well, I missed all these details among millions other news since I don't watch much TV.
I am disgusted with the fact that such things possible at all. I heard about other stuff a lot, but this one I just found out about. Personally I get enraged when any crime is commited against children. American finest, no kidding.
The death penalty is too mild punishment for this in my book.

First the bloody habeus corpus, now instant "you kill them, we kill you back." Sorry, but I'm against the death penalty entirely, I don't think people should go unpunished, and I think it should be heavier than death, life in prison IMO would be much more effective and torturous than instant death.

But America is really starting to tick me off, some of the people, some of the government (well a lot of the government) and now some of the laws.

Military law is different from civilian law. Honestly, would you have it any other way?

Here is a link to an old news report:
Capital Charges Filed In Rape-Slaying Case

There's even an entry for it at fricking Wikipedia (I feel like using a lot of alliteration and assonance today):
Steven Dale Green - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Meh, I don't know how I'd have military law or civilian law. I'm still worked up over the Habeus corpus thing, so Politics are just not a good subject with me now. I should really just avoid these types of threads.

Wait, so this already happened?

Now I recall that I heard about this incident when it happened but all I knew about it was a "slaughter of a family" and not the rape of a girl. That is why I did not recognize it right away. Anyway, it is very sad that all we can say about this terrible event is "So what? Just an old news".
Very sad indeed.

Lady Dragonfly wrote:I am disgusted with the fact that such things possible at all. I heard about other stuff a lot, but this one I just found out about. Personally I get enraged when any crime is commited against children. American finest, no kidding.

You are aware that under American "management," the following humiliation and torture was performed at Abu Ghraib...?

a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;

f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

i. (S) Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

S = Starr Report
U = Army "internal use only" Report, leaked to the media.

These are only the practices that could be confirmed as occurring. There were certainly more, but they couldn't be proven.

If these things could be done to people being detained without trial, by US soldiers, including sodomizing prisoners, why should rape of a girl outside the prison surprise you? If a mindset views detainees in a foreign population as objects for torture, then the distance traveled to viewing a child for that purpose is not necessarily that great. Lack of appropriate supervision, a feeling of being in the middle of a group of people who regard you as hated occupiers, the tension of knowing you might be killed any minute if you step outside the Green Zone...the list could go on.

It's horrible, I agree. All of it. Every last bit of it.

And with the new Torture Law (Military Commissions Act) in place, Bush gets to decide what is actually torture, and what isn't, in every instance; and he can suspend habeas corpus, without any judicial involvement at all.

Sorry to say, but the world goes to hell alil more everyday...

@ Fable
Yes, I knew all of this. History repeats itself over and over. Deja vu...
Every time I hear something like that I feel ashamed and disgusted.
I also feel sorrow for every boy in uniform killed in this pointless war and I am familiar with psychology and psychiatry enough to apreciate what they are going through. But I start seeing red every time I hear a child is raped or murdered.
Sorry.

Fable, not to minimize the alledged "torture" at Abu Ghraib but most of those things you listed go on at a fraternity hazing.

Crimes happen in Iraq and they happen in the States. This is not the first time a girl was raped and her family murdered. Just because it happened in Iraq does not make it more heinous. The criminals involved will be punished to the fullest extent of the law. That's all we can ask for at this point.

Lady Dragonfly wrote:Anyway, it is very sad that all we can say about this terrible event is "So what? Just an old news".

Just to clarify things, that's not what I said. I'm still waiting for justice for a lot of things that have happened. They haven't lost any of their importance no matter how much time has passed.

Dowaco wrote:Fable, not to minimize the alledged "torture" at Abu Ghraib but most of those things you listed go on at a fraternity hazing.

Dowaco, tell me, how many Iraqi prisoners detained without trial in Abu Ghraib knew their humiliation was going to end in a day or a week, and that all would be fun and games in a proud campus frathouse after that? That's for the humiliation part, which you somehow neglected to mention as part of the list, above. For the rest--the genuine torture--are you claiming that somehow forced sodomization with a broom handle is a casual thing when committed by the armed representatives of the US government, on untried detainees? If not, just what is your point?

Crimes happen in Iraq and they happen in the States.

And the US has proudly stated that it doesn't endorse or permit the use of torture for more than a century. It also proudly stood as a sponsor to the Geneva Conventions. Just because you tow the line for every thing the Bush administration says, don't let it force you into rationalizing behavior that you should reasonably abhor as an American--as a citizen of a nation that stood against that kind of thing for so many years.

This is not the first time a girl was raped and her family murdered.

The last time atrocities were committed on America's watch was in another war, Vietnam--only there, we at least had the cover of an invitation from Nguyen Van Thieu, and torture wasn't involved. Somehow, killing people in a desparate war seems cleaner than torturing unconvicted prisoners in a land you invade, behind closed doors, for the fun of it. Not that either is a joy unbounded, but...

For the rest--the genuine torture--are you claiming that somehow forced sodomization with a broom handle is a casual thing when committed by the armed representatives of the US government, on untried detainees? If not, just what is your point?

My point was that cold water being poured on you does not rise to the level of murder and rape of a child. So if you want to blame the government for something then blame them for real atrocities, not for embaressing some prisoners. The point you made was trivialized by the laundry list of pranks when you would have been better off citing the heinous and depraved acts that took place. The administration has condemed the actions at Abu Ghraib and the individuals involved were punished.

My other point is that humans can be horrible to each other independent of the country the crimes are commited in. This story could just as easily have happened in Texas. Oh, wait, it did CNN.com - Texas executes man convicted of rape, murder of child - December 5, 2000
Using a rape that happened in Vietnam or Iraq to attack the administration is a deperate technique.

Dowaco wrote:Fable, not to minimize the alledged "torture" at Abu Ghraib but most of those things you listed go on at a fraternity hazing.

I see two things wrong with that comparison. First of all, it ignores the issue of consent. Frat boys presumably know what they're getting into and agree to participate. That makes their activities completely different from what happens to people who are imprisoned against their will, many of whom were completely innocent but picked up for "interrogation" because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time or because their captors didn't know who else to pick up so they incarcerated the first person they could find.

Second of all, American forces are supposed to be bringing law and order to Iraq. Don't you think there's something seriously wrong when people who are given the responsibility of maintaining law and order commit heinous crimes, including torture, rape, and murder? How can you compare that to what some dumb frat guys do?

Dowaco wrote:My point was that cold water being poured on you does not rise to the level of murder and rape of a child.

Please show me where I did imply that, above. I provided a list of all the humiliations and tortures committed at Abu Ghraib, and then specifically stated that these things were done to people detained without trial, by US soldiers. Of course they aren't equal in weight, but they do comprise a complete list, and more to the point, none of them should have been committed.

The administration has condemed the actions at Abu Ghraib and the individuals involved were punished.

So I take it you performed your own private investigation, summoning all the witnesses to your presence? It certainly seems that way, based on your authoritative pronouncement. Because no such non-political, non-governmental investigation was done here in the US, though it was repeatedly called for. Normally I laugh at comments about "coverup," but the stink of it really wafts out of this one. There's no good reason I can think of to avoid a non-governmental investigation. Can you?

My other point is that humans can be horrible to each other independent of the country the crimes are commited in. This story could just as easily have happened in Texas. Oh, wait, it did CNN.com - Texas executes man convicted of rape, murder of child - December 5, 2000
Using a rape that happened in Vietnam or Iraq to attack the administration is a deperate technique.

Are you just playing debating games? Because I can't see how a person of your intelligence can otherwise completely ignore what I posted. Or maybe I wasn't clear; perhaps not for the first time. So let me repeat, then continue:

And the US has proudly stated that it doesn't endorse or permit the use of torture for more than a century. It also proudly stood as a sponsor to the Geneva Conventions. Just because you tow the line for every thing the Bush administration says, don't let it force you into rationalizing behavior that you should reasonably abhor as an American--as a citizen of a nation that stood against that kind of thing for so many years.

This wasn't a matter of rape by an individual. This was a matter of repeated, systematic torture and humiliation in various forms committed by numerous military representatives of a government, in a nation they supposedly liberated, on detainees who hadn't been brought to trial. I hope we're both clear about that, now. Becuase while the actions of a private individual can be horrifying, these were people representing our nation who did a series of horrifying things, over an extended period of time. These things weren't done to extract useful infomation--and I freely admit, the idea of using torture for that purpose leaves me with mixed emotions. These things were simply done, apparently (judging from comments made in print) because the military officers involved got off on doing it.

As for the administration, I made a passing comment indicating that I could easily ttack on the grounds of the new Torture Law (Military Commissions Act), not Abu Ghraib. Barring a reasonable investigation, how could I know whom to blame ultimately for the latter?

I'm still waiting for your answer to this question: "For the rest--the genuine torture--are you claiming that somehow forced sodomization with a broom handle is a casual thing when committed by the armed representatives of the US government, on untried detainees?"

America's Finest...

Not many things that happen in this world every day can rattle me. I am no better than anyone who did not spend their life in a closet: I got used to stuff. The media helped increase my sensitivity threshold to the point of cynicism long time ago. However, there are still few things out there that can penetrate my thick skin when I am caught off guard, relaxing in a chair in my comfortable living room.
And I start thinking about my overstretched tolerance. And I feel uncomfortable.

When a Joe sells drugs from his basement, it is bad. But if that Joe happens to be a low-enforcement officer it is much worse.

When a Joe browses Internet to solicit sex with a minor, it is not good. If that Joe happens to be your friendly neighborhood Congressman, it is revolting.

When a child is raped by a gang of drunken bastards, it is horrible. If these bastards are dressed in the U.S. uniform and are “on the mission” to fight the Global Terrorism in the country they “liberated”, it is…

It is all cliché… to our tolerant minds. Let’s discuss the weather, shall we?

LD, I couldn't agree with you more. Our society as a whole is so horribly desensitized, it's gross. I actually did not hear about this specific case, don't know how I missed it, but I don't understand how our society isn't up in arms about cases like this and in Abu Ghraib. We're obsessed up with where Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt are going on vacation, yet the torture of humans in Guantanamo Bay goes by largely unnoticed. I don't get it.