Are spellcasters necessary?

Oscuro_Sol · Post by **Oscuro_Sol** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:46 pm

I've only been playing the game for a bit, but I've never really found a huge use for mages.

I've really only used Aerie, though. She's helpful when I'm in a lot of trouble, but in small fights she's moderately useless.

I never use mages for my main character, they just bug me too much and have too little HP.

Do you REALLY need them?

Aqua-chan · Post by **Aqua-chan** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:38 pm

Absolutely. Battles with Irenecus typically require me to have at least two spellcasters - one to constantly Breach his spell protections and the other to slam him with offensive magic.

Don't get me started on how easy magic can make fights with large groups/dragons significantly less difficult.

Onkel Bob · Post by **Onkel Bob** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:51 pm

I have very little use for clerics but mages form the main part of my most effective parties. I like to prevent damage instead of healing and to deal damage to all enemies in one go with spells rather than just to one enemy with a weapon. Not that I don't use tanks though. It's just that my prefered tanks may differ from other people's. The two best tanks in the game in my opinion, for example, is Haer'Dalis and Jaheira; in that order.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:08 pm

Not at all.

There is required use for a class.

You can quite literally solo the game with every single class and not need any other class.

Oscuro_Sol · Post by **Oscuro_Sol** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:21 pm

Then who would you suggest for a mage?

I'm not sure I want Aerie again, since I'm starting another game and I want to switch up NPCs... But I'm definitely having Minsc, Anomen, and maybe Yoshimo and Jaheira.

Aqua-chan · Post by **Aqua-chan** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:58 pm

You've already got Yoshimo, and since you're going with a large party I wouldn't recommend the multiclassed Jan Jansen unless you're up for two rogues. Seems you're aiming for a good aligned party, so maybe not Edwin. Aside from him I find that Nalia is the quickest of mages to become really powerful (when equipped with the right goods) because she's single classed.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:07 pm

No class is absolutely necessary. Having a spread of classes makes winning easier, and also (in my opinion) more fun, since you have my strategic options at your disposal to win a battle. But it's entirely up to you whether you include spellcasters in a party, or not.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:06 pm

Just keep your current party, and get your mage when you save Imoen.

BTW, I have a similar playing style as you (at least I think I do): I like guys who can fight, and don't really dig the magic users. This changes when I learned the game though. Now I favor a Sorcerer protagonist, and pick up a lot of NPCs who know how to fight (Haer'Dalis is good in a fight, and a decent backup Mage, Anomen casts but can fight, Keldorn is great, Jaheira is a great tank and spellcaster also).

QuenGalad · Post by **QuenGalad** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:22 am

Onkel Bob wrote:I have very little use for clerics but mages form the main part of my most effective parties. I like to prevent damage instead of healing and to deal damage to all enemies in one go with spells

Well, I remember being quite astonished when I realised most of my offensive spells were cast by my cleric (Anomen, to be precise). This of course means the higher level spells, altough holy smite is great, too. When you get the cleric HLAs, they can be more offensive than mages! Leave dispelling to wizards, and unleash the storm of your vengeance!

Also I'm sure some magic-immune monsters (planar sphere golems, for one) were defeated by storm of fire (or whatever it's called in english, I don't know?)

Clerics can be offensive casters, but no-one can do the dispel-contingency trick instead of your wizard.

Jedi_Sauraus · Post by **Jedi_Sauraus** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:44 am

Mages are a must and let noone tell your otherwise. while it's true that any class can solo, and therefore technicly you don't need access to arcane spells, playing without a mage is an exercise in frustration. Any battle you can think of will go alot easier if you have access to things like greater malisson, emotion, (improved) haste, slow, breach, dispel, remove magic, strategic (skull trap, fireball) and "non strategic" (Abu Dazim's) nukes, summons, I could go on all day...

Once you learn to use the spells, a good arcane caster is the most unstoppable thing in the game. Just think about it, who do you have the most trouble with a group of tanks?? laughable. or is it a whole lot tougher if they have mage support ie; casting fear or confusion making your team chaotic and unpredictalbe

edit: as for who your mage should be take whomever you want

if you want to roleplay Imoen, Nalia can be a good choice as well. Edwin is best and I would recommend him because he's powerfull and entertaining but unfortunatly evil. Jan and Aerie are multi's and therefore you won't get level 9 spells for quite a while. IMHO both can make good support mages but neither would be my primary mage of choice.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:45 am

It really depends on your playing style and personal preferences. As stated, the game can be beaten with any number of different party combinations.

However, having casters definitely makes some battles *much* easier. Certain bosses are extremely vulnerable to a series of lower resistance spells followed by a slew of magic missiles.
Though, I like a caster-heavy party in BG2, so I'm biased

Have you just tried mages, or have you also tried sorcerers? Not to reopen that debate here, but some people do prefer the latter. You may find them more to your liking since you can select the best spells available and cast them numerous times per day.

Jedi_Sauraus · Post by **Jedi_Sauraus** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:13 pm

With regard to the Sorceror vs Mage, I would go with a Conjurer Mage due to his versitility and the fact that he has almost the same amount of casts/day as a sorceror. some fights require spells that normally would'nt find their way into a spellbook. Also with a Sorceror you really need to know the in's and out's of every spell in the game and know which are most benificial against the greatest amount of hard encounters.

Another thing to consider about mages in general is that even if direct magical offense isn't your style, you can use them to buff up your tanks or create disposable meat shields

Tate · Post by **Tate** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:58 pm

It's not neccessary to have a mage in the party, but having one definitely makes things easier.

As for who you should pick, I'm partial to either Edwin or Jan. Edwin can conflict with some others in your party (Minsc), and eventually they will fight, so that might not be what you want, but installing the Ease of Use mod fixes that. Jan is definitely fun to play, but his casting abilities don't even come close to Edwin's.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:43 am

The most versatile solo characters are the ones who can cast summoning spells and/or area effect spells. I have never soloed the game, but if I ever did, I wouldn't play a Fighter or a Fighter kit. I just can't imagine trying to fight a dragon without using Breach or Dispel Magic. I suppose a Fighter can blunder his way through Shadows of Amn with an awful lot of reloads, but I shudder to think what Throne of Bhaal would be like with a solo Fighter. Surely, there is a place for magic in any game.

That brings me to my next point. Mages, Sorcerers, and Clerics are not the only spellcasters in the game. To me, that's obvious, but I have the impression that many players don't use all of the spellpower that is available to them. For example, Rangers and Inquisitors have extremely useful spells. If I were interested in soloing, I wouldn't mind soloing an Inquisitor or a Cleric/Ranger. The innate Bhaalspawn abilities also come in handy.

I think we all take magic for granted. Even characters who can't cast any spells can use magic items, so even a Fighter can use the power of magic. For example, a monster that is protected by Stoneskin can't be hit as long as the skins are in effect, but the Silver Sword can still chop off their heads and kill them instantly. Crom Faeyr can kill golems in one hit. The Mace of Disruption can kill undead creatures in one hit. Not only that, such items can boost your character's Strength or provide protection from level drain. Even if you don't use any spells, you can use potions or items to protect your characters from damage, increase their number of attacks, and increase their stats.

The point is, you end up using a lot of magic in a game like this. My final point is that once you realize how much magic can help your party, you might be motivated to see what sort of benefits spells can offer you. Jedi_Sauraus made some great suggestions, and dragon wench echoes my own sentiments with her suggestion of using Lower Resistance in combination with a barrage of Magic Missiles. Magic has many wonderful uses. You can dispel your enemies' protection spells with Breach or the Inquisitor's Dispel Magic. You can get rid of their clones and decoys and prevent them from backstabbing you by using True Seeing or True Sight. You can kill their summoned pets and kill lower level monsters by using the Death spell. You can severely weaken enemy parties by using Doom, Greater Malison, Glitterdust, Emotion, Hold Monster, Chaos, etc. You can buff up your own characters with Armor of Faith, Draw Upon Holy Might, Righteous Magic, Haste, and all sorts of protection spells. And the offensive spells are just too powerful to pass up.

It's not easy to learn how to use spells, especially since there are so many to choose from. But if you concentrate on a few to begin with and get used to using them on a regular basis, pretty soon you won't be playing without them.

Ian Kognitow · Post by **Ian Kognitow** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:33 am

Besides whatever ease that magic using might bring, I prefer to think of it more as a loss of fun and strategic challenge: otherwise the game actually does just become a matter of finding Minsc 'a bigger sword' and pointing him in the right direction.

And while the game can indeed be soloed by fighter characters, I doubt that it can really be done without a lot of exploits, if not full blown cheese - there would at least be large parts of the game that would not be possible. For instance, yes, you can step outside a door while some enemy mage's protection wear off, after which you can go back inside and bop him on the head with a mace. I would at least like to imagine though that any enemy worth the trouble of a game that takes days worth of gaming hours to complete is smart enough to know that he can walk through a door too.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:44 pm

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:Mages are a must and let noone tell your otherwise. while it's true that any class can solo, and therefore technicly you don't need access to arcane spells, playing without a mage is an exercise in frustration. Any battle you can think of will go alot easier if you have access to things like greater malisson, emotion, (improved) haste, slow, breach, dispel, remove magic, strategic (skull trap, fireball) and "non strategic" (Abu Dazim's) nukes, summons, I could go on all day...
<snip>

Mages are not a must, and to claim so is pointless.
Mages makes some encounters easier indeed, but they are very far from being a must in the game. With the amount of high (over)powered weapons and equipment in the game, it is very plausible to avoid using mages alltogether.

Please don't use opinion as fact.

Pe Ell · Post by **Pe Ell** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:28 am

I'll echo the general sentiment and say that it's up to everyone to choose if they want to use mages or not. They can make the experience easier and more fun but you don't absolutely must have them. The example I tend to use is when I went through the game with 6 rangers, 3 pure class and 3 archers. That was a hack an' slash feast! :laugh:

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:13 am

I recently did some quests very cleric-heavy and mage-light - I had Jaheira, Anomen and Viconia with Yoshimo, HaerD and the PC, who was a mage dualled from a fighter. I have been having NPCs come and go and keep my team at cerne's old house in waukeen's promenade.

the clerics/druid were all happy to weigh in with weapons - as was my fighter/mage. I had dualled at level 9 fighter and for roleplay I have him fight with pixie-prick (+3) and celestial fury (also +3) as he is **** in daggers and *** in dual weapon - I use wands and area effects quite often but when it comes to an interesting fight, I target enemies in melee with magic missile and then, buffed with spirit armour, wade in with my 5/2 attacks - one of which by CF often stuns my particular melee opponent.
at the same time as I am MM-ing one of the enemy - usually their spellcaster, especially if they have mirror-imaged - jaheira usually starts a serious battle with insect plague and the clerics with holy smite.
sometimes that opening gambit creates so much shock and awe that some of the enemy run before a blade is drawn.
depending on the type of enemy - I sometimes send in summoned creatures/undead - eg spider spawn as the enemy will usually concentrate their attacks on who attacks them first, not on our most powerful caster.
once melee is joined - the priorities change - it is better to concentrate on defeating powerful enemies and so I will normally use summoned creatures to keep some enem engaged whilst my crack assault troops concentrate their fire on one powerful enemy - or perhaps in two groups on two enemy. bringing down the enemy 'big-hitters' reduced the chances of a party member being slashed to ribbons - some NPCs do not have the HP to withstand more than a handful of successful hits, so I try to avoid one-on-ones between poor HP characters and the enemy big hitters - it is better to have an >80HP with a good AC to toe to toe them whilst the others chip in with demage from the side and heal the duellist.
I also try to have mass heal available and jaheira's woodland being summons up a dryad with that available too. sanctuary should be kept available but usually the clerics can cast decent amounts of healing to get them through. summoning undead to swell the ranks and can create a buffer to allow the clerics the chance to cast uninterrupted.
a team of Jaheira with Viconia and Anomen is not unbalanced PROVIDING they are given the right equipment - girdle of strength, maulers arm, suitable armour (and shields) - with an average of AC -5 and each with 17+ str using +2 to +4 weapons a gang of cleric-types can do as well as a team of fighters. the to hit ac1 is worse, but they can make up for it.
I probably wouldn't play the whole game with all 3 but for a campaign or two it is worth seeing how to get the best from such a specialist team.
clerics CAN rock.