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I've been thinking of playing IWD2 again. I want opinions on what a strong party is in normal mode only. With heavy level squatting I have been able to get 20 levels (on humans etc) on just normal.

I think its an interesting topic since HOF is almost a totally different game and on this site at least most of the best thought is about creating a level 30 HOF party (silverdragon, UPP, JUPP).

Since I'm starting this thread I will offer my thoughts but bare with me as I haven't played in awhile.

Observations:
Rogue is handy skill man but I never found backstab that good
Caster classes are crippled by mixins since they only barely reach 9th spells
Caster buffing to melee might be an option?
Melee is doable before HOF without super AC or buffs
Don't know if monk, paladin (pure), or bard (pure) are any good
Druid is ok I think
Sorceror rocks!
Party should have at least 1 cleric (i think)
Needs at least 2 tanks
ECL races should be chosen with caution as limited to normal mode xp

So based on that which may or may not be general consensus heres what I think:

one good party would be to use the UPP (works in normal) but I'll try and offer a alternative but still have sorceror.

Shield Dwarf Barbarian X *Dwarf to get better mind saves
Shield Dwarf Cleric (Tempus) X
Human Sorceror X

sounding like the UPP so I'll try to change up on my last 3

Human Rogue4/Bard5/DruidX *backup tank [(MI)/animal], skill, song, high intelligence because druid can tank physical stats then shift to animal fight
(Hard to build probably some weak levels but lots of roles filled)
PS Level squat at Rogue 4/Bard 5 for a LONG time sing sing mule mule
Then jack up Druid for some casting and animal + MI

Drow female Paladin2/Ranger1/Monk1/Cleric of Ilmater X
Backup Cleric, wield Cera Sumat, high saves with evasion, some tanking

Race? Wizard X
Arcane skills and magic

This party will have 1 main tank, 1 main cleric who can fight, 1 backup cleric with fighting ability, 2 arcane casters in back, a rogue/singer/decoy/mule/later druid

Claudius

I've found that if you just want to do normal mode, a lot of multi classing isn't really needed. For example, a sorcerer can just stay a sorcerer until level 18. Sure you lose the benifits of a level 2 paladin, but if you can keep your sorcerer away from the center of action, then those two levels (or the magic resistance of a drow for that matter) aren't really needed.

ECL races can be very good, even in normal mode since they bring down the party average level, making the whole party gain more experience. This is especially good if you use less than a six member party.

Anyhow, for me, the most effective party I used had 4 members.
Deep Gnome: Monk(1)/Rogue(2)/Illusionist(x)
Female Drow: Priestess of Bane(x)
Male Drow: Rogue(2)/Wizard(x)
Human: Sorcerer

The gnome was decoy, the priestess really only commanded enemies, the other two would hurl spells of mass destruction at the gnome. Since the gnome always had mirror image, the spells rarely damaged him.

Fighters, at least for me, are completely unneccessary. Even by the end of normal mode, your mages do more damage than any fighter and with massive buffs, they can take more punishment than any fighter. Also, a priest with haste can do as much melee damage as a fighter, and at higher levels, I haven't seen any character miss a shot. So no matter what you play, having more than 4 levels of fighter (weapon specialization) doesn't really make your party stronger. For me, even 4 levels is too much.

Also, and again, this is just my opinion, bard and druid are very fun classes to play. The bard has a couple of songs that make the rest of the party very tough to deal with, and they make a good buffer/debuffer. Unless you're working on the ultimate armor class, however, a sorcerer is better than a bard. The druid has more opportunities to do damage thanks to firestorm spells and shapeshifting, and the druid summons are much more varied than animate-dead-animate-dead of a priest. Which made my most fun party this:

Male Drow: Thief(2)/Wizard(x)
Female Drow: Priest of something (I can't remember what, I think she was Lathander)
Human: Druid
Male Drow: Bard
Human: Sorcerer
Human: Sorcerer

The damage output for this party is unreal, and even into HoF mode, the bard was able to play tank/decoy with his variety of defensive spells.

Both your parties look quite good. On the first one I was curious why the deep gnome gets 1 level of monk (or alternatively rogue2 but I figured thats for skills)? Is it for monk items or abilities? With only 4 players they would be truly powerful casters.

As far as fighters I guess I haven't seen total the comparison but I found a fighter good when you couldn't get a summon out in time. I suppose you could use your bard or decoy at those times. Also in general with improved critical and a 2 handed weapon fighters can deal a lot of damage to kill fast. So casters rule but fighters quite impressive I think.

On your second party again I've never played with all casters. I really like spells but I would be tempted to make at least 1 warrior too.

I'm still in my traditional stasis as I can't decide what my party should be!

claudius

In regards to a normal party, there are a few JUPP related things that can be used in normal mode:
1) Pre-plan your party! Even down to what items they wear/use!
2) Use races with spell resistance (Drow or Deep Gnome),
3) Casters are the most powerful classes,
4) Fewer characters means less need to "cheat". My last 4-character party completed the game at an average party level of 19.25 (see below),

A few of my own points regarding "powergaming" parties:
1) You don't have to pick only Drow or Deep Gnome - consider the multi-class XP penalty!
2) Don't pick a fighter class - just pick a cleric or druid instead.
3) If a fighter class IS used, add wizard levels for spells like Blur and Mirror Image.
4) Diviner is usually the best school for multi-classes (other casters can handle the conjuration).
5) 1 monk level for high AC builds.
6) As for WIS based high AC builds: Watcher of Helm vs Dreadmaster of Bane?

Here was my last party that completed normal mode (and now currently in HoF). Not the most powerful party - in fact some people will think "why?" for some of the "weak" choices I made!
Drow Watcher of Helm 11/Diviner 7
Dual wielding high AC decoy and healer. Could reach AC in high 40s by end of the game (with a shield and Blur, Mirror Image and Blink buffs). Aim in HoF: Monk 1/Watcher of Helm 17/Diviner 12; cast Tensor's Transformation - could eventually reach AC of 72-75.
Shield Dwarf Fighter 4/Stormlord of Talos 8/Conjurer 8
Main tank. All spells are self-cast only, touch spells and lightning spells. Aim in HoF: Fighter 6/Stormlord of Talos 12/Conjurer 12; cast Tensor's Transformation - could eventually cause around 45-60 damage per strike with a "vanilla" +5 greataxe (and 2 luck items/spell), excluding criticals.
Tiefling Rogue 1/Bard 9/Druid 9
JUPP character I thought I would try out. Aim in HoF: Rogue 2/Bard 14/Druid 14 - Barkskin and War Chant of the Sith.
Human Fighter 2/Sorcerer 18
Spellcaster and archer. Fighter levels were for the 2 extra feats. No lightning spells. Aim in HoF: Rogue 1/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 27; Rogue level for "Swing From the Masts".

As you can see though, my party is VERY magic heavy, but I actually had few attacking spells (most were buffs). If I had planned my party not to carry on into HoF, then perhaps the class levels would have been different, e.g. getting at least 11 Bard levels, or ignoring Stormlord of Talos levels to get TT.

The monk level on the deep gnome is because I started with his wisdom and dex maxed out. With wisdom AC bonusses, nothing can hit that character for a long time apart from the occasional critical hit. Even then, the character can mirror image (DG bonus) once per rest period. The rogue levels were intended for certain items which also add generic armor class. I had more than one because one just isn't enough for the thief skills, but more than two adds an experience penalty. It's basically a massively scaled down version of the JUPP decoy gnome, so also plan on taking the skill "expertise" before the end of the game.

The first time I played a bard in ID2, I played a fighter(4)/bard(x). I also had a normal fighter in the party. By the end of the game, the bard was doing as much melee damage as the fighter. And with spells like blur and mirror image, nothing touched him either. I eventually had the fighter just sit back and shoot arrows at whatever mages were against me (in HoF mode) while the bard waded into the monster soup.

Since it's quite easy to get a level 30 party after about a third of normal mode with proper level-squatting the level 30 guides work quite well as answer to your heading.

I never got 30 levels the whole normal game when playing with 6 party members. The most I got was 20. And I used a level squatting table rationally designed to keep party average just below a number divisible by 6 and to keep characters "parked" at levels of peak power for each build/progression.

How did you get 30 in 1/3 of the game kmonster? 5 level 1 monk mules and 1 character?

claudius

You can get XP very fast and easily by wandering around in Fell Wood.
You don't have to level squat before or afterwards, no mules are needed. Just don't level up there and you can reach level 30 in nearly no time.

This doesn't work if your party level is too high at this point because of level-squatting however.

**** POTENTIAL SPOILER ****

Kmonster,

I think I've figured out what you mean. I found a "loop" where I just keep going north and I get a new Restless Dead to kill every other pocket.

But it sure did get monotonous after a while.

At only 337 xps per RD, I think I'd die of boredom before reaching 30th level. :laugh: But I did pick up several thousand extra xp's per PC before getting bored. Thanks for the tip.

(Reaching 30th level isn't important to me. I just want my spellcasters to be able to cast 9th level spells before the game ends. So I'll be happy to reach 20th level or so.)

Oh I see, kmonster. Usually I level some people after the ice temple (cause if I don't then they'll be sky high when I finally do level). I guess I could get by those wolves with a low level party somehow and then kill skeletons. Must take a lot of kills! That must make that chapter pretty easy with level 30 party once you level up!

claudius

I updated my party with the idea that casters are better than melee...

I didn't take 30 levels (normal mode) into account because I don't want to level up for hours on skeletons or use mules or things. But thats a good idea I didn't think of that.

Char 1) Pal1Monk1ClericX all Ilmater female Drow. Dropped the ranger and Pal2 because I didn't think immunity to fear and dual wield were worth it. Saves, a melee char with Cera sumat and using save bonus on evasion are worth it.

Char 2) Monk1DruidX Deep Gnome. Also low ac and trying out druid.

Char 3) Bard X Human caster with songs

Char 4) Rogue1 WizardX Drow. Resident Rogue and arcane caster.

Char 5) Sorceror X. could add Pal at anytime but in back so not much saves.

Char 6) ? Sorceror Y???

Well I'm in Targos now and I have opted for a good yet not ultimate party. Its not entirely role playing and not entirely optimized. But much better than the Hand of Fury party that the game comes pre-loaded which is what I beat the game with several years ago.

Heres the party:

1) Human Leader - Galliana - Monk1Pal1 ->Monk1Pal2Ranger1PainbearerX

str14Dex13Con14Int3Wis18Ch14

skills: Concentration

2) Shield Dwarf Healer and Warrior - Dunflin - BattlegaurdX

str18Dex16Con20Int3Wis18Ch1

skills: Concentration

3) Moon Elf Archer and Druid - Harond - Druid X

str10Dex20Con10Int10Wis18Ch8

skills: Concentration, Animal Empathy

4) Human Bard - Marid - Bard X

str12Dex12Con14Int10Wis10Ch18

skills: Concentration, Bluff, Diplomacy

5) Tiefling skill man - Aerlin - Rogue X/ Diviner Y

str10Dex14Con16Int20Wis10Ch8

skills: Disable Device, Open Locks, Search, Pick Pockets, Spellcraft, Arcane, Alchemy, Intimidate, Concentration

6) Wild Elf Sorceress - Ye'Shae - Sorceror X

str10Dex12Con14Int12Wis10Ch18

skills: Concentration, Spellcraft

claudius

Your party is very similar to the party I played my first game with (character2 has even the same stats), cha1 being a fighter/paladin and cha5 a rogue/mage were the only differences besides slightly different stats and races.
Although I didn't level-squat I needed only one reload caused by combat and a few story-driven ones, so you could even try a "no reload" attempt with your knowledge.


I'd take 10 spellcraft for your druid, so he can take the "scion of storms" feat when he reaches level 9. 20 percent extra damage with "call lightning" and "static charge" help a lot, especially if you want to do the battle squares without reload. Concentration isn't that important and I don't even know if "animal empathy" has any benefits.

That's a very good party with a lot of potential for different new strategies. The only thing I would suggest is to regularly buff up your character #1 with strength and agility spells, then he can also be a killing machine.