Sorcerers vs wizards

[rbeverjr]

Accepting that the Wild Mage is the most powerful arcane class, I am wondering which does the general player population like most these days: a wizard, specialist wizard (other than wild mage), or the sorcerer. Comparing the wizard with the sorcerer, each has its advantages. The wizard can select the best spells for different periods of the game. For instance, some of the spells are great early in SoA, but are useless in ToB. The wizard can build a group of spells in memory for use in a particular battle – some of these spells may not be useful enough in general to make the sorcerer’s list. The wizard typically has a much higher intelligence than the sorcerer, which is useful in identifying the loot without casting spells of Identify. The wizard does not have to depend on having a scroll case full of scrolls for the special occasion (like Freedom and Stone to Flesh). And finally the wizard will gain a decent amount of XP for the group simply by scribing spells in his spell book. The Sorcerer does not have to depend on finding the scroll to learn a spell. The sorcerer can cast any spell he knows up to a certain number of times per day for each spell level. This is convenient, but can be especially useful for the level 9/HLA spells. Because the sorcerer doesn’t seem to need any particular stat, you can spread the points around as you desire, while the wizard needs intelligence. The sorcerer sometimes can cast more spells each day than the wizard, but less than Edwin. So, this is how I see it. Both are nice, but which one do you typically use and why?

[Jedi_Sauraus]

Well, I'm a big fan of sorcerers . It's not really fair to take Edwin into account when comparing these two classes his amulet is overpowered, giving him the ability to cast as a sorcerer would but with out the disadvantage of limited picks.

Now, let me explain why I think sorcerers are better. If you've got a good working knowldge of arcane spells you don't really need many spells, and furthermore you can specialize a sorcerer to cast diffrent types of arcane magic. you can have specialize in nuking, debuffing, disabling, summoning or some combination of the above. The way I play only 2 to 4 spells per level are essential.

1: magic missle, spook
2: Melf's arrow and mirror image
3: skull trap, slow, haste, Melf's meteors.
4: greater malison, emotion, stone skin,
5: breach, lower resistance, shadow door, feeblemind
6: Imp. Haste, PfMW, True sight, Pierce magic
7: Mordenkeinens sword, mass invisibility, project Image, ruby ray
8: Abudazim's spell trigger
9: Timestop, chain contingency and shape change

the above spells are only the essential ones. sorcerer gets a few more picks than needed to get the above which is just icing on the cake. He never needs to rememorize spells or waste time manageing his spellbook

[Klorox]

Well, I'm a big fan of sorcerers . It's not really fair to take Edwin into account when comparing these two classes his amulet is overpowered, giving him the ability to cast as a sorcerer would but with out the disadvantage of limited picks.

I don't understand how his amulet allows Edwin to cast spells like a sorcerer.

BTW, the sorcerer is the most powerful class in BG2, IMO.

[fable]

I don't understand how his amulet allows Edwin to cast spells like a sorcerer.

Edwin's amulet allows him to cast 2 extra spells for every level of spells he knows. That's all it does. It does not allow him to choose from a pool of unmemorized spells at casting time, as a sorc can.

[Crenshinibon]

I agree with your original statement. I do think that the Wild Mage is the most powerful class in the game.

However, as we're not counting that class, I'll have to go with the sorcerer for the same reasons that Jedi said.

Even when I put those restrictions upon myself in the no reloads Wild Mage game, the battles were fairly easy. You use certain spells for the majority of the game, so, as a sorcerer, if you pick them, you're all set. There is no need to rememorizes those spells and besides, if for some reason you need to cast a spell that you don't have, you can suck it up and buy a scroll.

[dragon wench]

If you are looking for pure power, the sorc is the way to go. Beyond what has already been said, at least 45% of the arcane spells in the game are either entirely useless or close to it. A sorc can therefore select quality over quantity, so the "restrictions" on the number of spells in his/her mage book really does not matter at all.

[VonDondu]

I disagree that 45% of the arcane spells are entirely useless. I think it's 43%. (Just kidding. I'm curious: how did you pick a number like 45?)

But seriously, there are many, many spells that are useful and actually quite desirable. A Sorcerer can only choose a few of them, and I always end up wanting more.

Consider the following chart, and then start arguing about my spell selections. I have a lot of trouble choosing them myself. That should prove that the limitation on spell selections is quite a bother before you reach TOB-levels.

17th Level Sorcerer (2,625,000 xp)
---------
(5) Level 1 Spells (6 times/day) Burning Hands, Chromatic Orb, Magic Missile, Shield, Spook
(5) Level 2 spells (6 times/day) Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Resist Fear, Melf's Acid Arrow, Blur
(4) Level 3 Spells (6 times/day) Melf's Minute Meteors, Slow, Skull Trap, Remove Magic
(4) Level 4 Spells (6 times/day) Stoneskin, Emotion, Greater Malison, Secret Word
(4) Level 5 Spells (6 times/day) Breach, Lower Resistance, Spell Immunity, Animate Dead
(3) Level 6 Spells (6 times/day) True Sight, Improved Haste, Death Spell
(3) Level 7 Spells (6 times/day) Project Image, Mordenkainen's Sword, Ruby Ray of Reversal
(2) Level 8 Spells (4 times/day) Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Spell Trigger

Sure, a Sorcerer is very powerful, but doesn't a list like that cramp your style? In a way, playing a Sorcerer improves your chance of becoming proficient with spells (the small number of them you have in your spellbook, that is), but sometimes I'd rather just play a Specialist Mage.

[dragon wench]

@Von Dondu,
OK, that was wholly unscientific, and as much a figure of speech as anything. There are a lot of useless spells out there though:
*Know Alignment: Who cares? If they attack you return the favour. Besides higher level NPCs can shrug it off pretty easily
*Colour Spray: doesn't work on higher level enemies
*Summon Familiar: use a scroll
*Infravision: You are bound to have at least one person in your party who can see in the dark. Besides, the game never gets that pitch anyway
*Chill Touch, Ghoul Touch and Shocking Grasp: You really don't want your mage/sorc getting that close to the enemy do you?
*Invisibility: wait for Improved Invisibility, or if you can't wait, use an invisibility ring or one of the many invisibility potions you can find
*Clairvoyance: Even if you haven't already played the game, really not all that useful. Just use a character to scout out an area if you really must know what's ahead
*Monster Summoning one to three: There are many better summons out there
*Farsight: see Clairvoyance
*Enchanted Weapon: Possibly useful in the earlier stages of the game, but of pretty limited value



Those are for starters, I don't have the time right now to go through the entire list of spells. However, I do fully acknowledge that this is very subjective, so I probably overstated the case in my previous post

[VonDondu]

Really, the only quibble I have (aside from my teasing about your percentage) is that none of those spells is "entirely useless". I'm sure that a panel of experts could find some use for most of them.

A long time ago when I played BG1, I found that wearing two fire opal rings gave Minsc an interesting glow that was very pretty in the dark. I guess it must have been some sort of anomaly because I haven't been able to reproduce it. Fire opal rings are unenchanted and they have no practical purpose, but every time I play BG1 I still wear two fire opal rings to see what will happen.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I actually find clairvoyance usefull to save me alot of time exploring. It's a convienience spell and it wouldn't be one of my picks but in any case a sorcerer can just buy a scroll and use it from a projected image.

To clarify what I said about Edwin, at the end of ToB he could cast 7 level 9 spells per day and between 8-10 of the other levels. he has more casts per day than a sorceror with out being limited by a low selection which is pretty crazy. The downside of course is not being able to use amulet of power, which means it takes him slightly longer to unload spells during TS + improved alcracity and he has no convienient source of negative plane protection. All in all I think Edwin was meant to teach people how to use a mage in BGII. With the # of casts per day that he has, people can quickly learn what is usefull without always resting.

[rbeverjr]

From these posts, posts by experts like UserUnfriendly and XyX, and my own experience, I would have to say that sorcerers have a slight edge over the usual mage (maybe not wild mage) - particularly at very high levels where they know all the spells that they can know. However, the real power of the wizard comes from multi- or dual-classing. I've edited Edwin into a dual-class monster back in the days when I was experimenting with overpowered characters.

[Klorox]

Really, the only quibble I have (aside from my teasing about your percentage) is that none of those spells is "entirely useless". I'm sure that a panel of experts could find some use for most of them.

"Infravision" is entirely useless for an elven sorcerer.

[MasterDarkNinja]

I really perfer Sorcerers to mages, it's so much nicer to not have to bother with memorizing spells. When you play as a wizard you have to make tough decisions of which spells to memorize for the day, and have the annoyance of having to find someplace safe to rest if you're out of the 'right' spells. I also find it really annoying when I get level drained early on and have to repick some spells to memorize but then forget to before I have my party rest. There are some tough choices to make when you pick what spells to learn, but when I was playing as a solo sorcerer there were usually no more then 1 spell for each spell level I never got that I kind of wanted. (Well I'll admit by 'soloing as a sorcerer' I mean in Icewind Dale 2, not BG2, but the games and spells are pretty similar).

I agree that a lot of spells in the game are useless. I mean detect evil, who cares? You can't just kill anyone who's evil for the crime of being evil (unless you don't mind the guards coming after you for attacking innocent citzens), and there's only like one quest in the entire game where you need it, and if you're doing that quest then someone in your party can already cast it like 15 times a day.

[Crenshinibon]

Now, I don't think we should talk about this as "all spells from BGII" but as all spells from the Baldur's Gate Saga. I think I've used every spell in the game at least a dozen of times, be it in the first one alone to gain insight on what would happen or for the sake of roleplaying.

Also, I have to disagree with the previous post. Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate are not similar at all. Only in the graphics. Many of the spells and abilities have changed to suit the 3E rules.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I agree with Crenshinibon, those two games are completely diffrent. I've only gone through Icewind Dale 2 twice and I can tell you the arcane casters there are extremely weak compared to their second edition counterparts. If you solo'ed ID2 as a sorcerer I'm amazed. Their are absolutly no cheese spells in that game and most spells are meant for support. without vecna, contingencies, spell triggers, projected images and time stop, mages just ain't what they used to be. Even the only usefull undead summons got nerfed due to patching. Another thing I hate about that game is that exp scales down with level. with a 4 man party I recieved no expierience at all starting right after the balloon crash lasting all the way untill I finished the monk's monestary. I wish they had some kind of mod to make everything have a set exp value in order make it more user freindly for soloing, or parties with less than 6 people.

[Lark]

From these posts, posts by experts like UserUnfriendly and XyX, and my own experience, I would have to say that sorcerers have a slight edge over the usual mage

Slight?

The sorcerer doesn't only get to cast more spells per day, he gets to choose them (from a limited list) as he casts them. Sure, the mage can choose his spellbook from a larger list according to the situation as he memorizes them. But that requires that he exactly knows what spells he will need in exactly what number. But what if something unforeseen happens? In this case the mage has to "depend on having a scroll case full of scrolls for the special occasion" just as the Sorcerer. Unless you prefer the 'quickoad-change spellbook-rest-quicksave-routine' every time something goes wrong. Not having to reload the same battle over and over again, needlessly, because my opponent happens to make his save against my only feeblemind, again, means more immersion hence more enjoyment for me.

While it is possible to change your spellbook during the game, this will not happen to a big degree once you have aquired the spells you need (at least not in my game), since not all spells are equal, many of them are less useful, than others or downright useless, no need to ever pick them. You write: 'The wizard can select the best spells for different periods of the game. For instance, some of the spells are great early in SoA, but are useless in ToB.' Why would that be an advantage over picking spells that remain useful for the whole game? While there may be spells that are useful in SoA but useful in ToB (Would you like to give some examples?), I don't know of any spells that are useful in ToB but useless in SoA.

While the mage may be more flexible in spell memorization, he lacks flexibility in using his memorized spells. The sorcerer will almost always have a broader choice of spells at any moment even if the mage memorizes a different spell in every spellslot. The sorcerer will have (being of sufficient level) always have the choice between 5 level 9 spells and all his High Level Spells. A flexibility that the mage can't beat. It becomes even more obvious if the sorcerer uses clones: Cast Project Image, let the Image cast Timestop, Greater Alacrity and 4 Dragon's Breaths, cast the next Image and let it cast 6 Wishes in a row. Impossible for a mage, doable with a Sorcerer.

Why scribe all those scrolls for XP, why not keep them for your Projected Images? Or, if you prefer the XP, why not let a companion scribe the scrolls, hire one for the purpose if need be, and if you play solo, did you ever encounter any XP problems? Not having to 'waste' scrolls, especially rare and useful ones, for scribing them into your spellbook is an advantage. I'd choose a timestop scroll over 9000 XP any time. And imagine casting timestop in chapter 3 - possible for a (probably solo) sorcerer, not possible for a mage.

From these posts, posts by experts like UserUnfriendly and XyX, and my own experience, I would have to say that sorcerers have the edge over the usual mage, not only a slight, but a huge one.

[The ability to dualclass is of course a mighty one, but this would lead from the discussion of 'sorcerers vs. mages' to the 'sorcerers vs. kensai->mages' discussion, which is, like the discussion of 'sorcerers vs. cleric/mages' and 'sorcerers vs. wild mages' another can of worms.]


Best regards,
Lark

[edit: typos]

[rbeverjr]

My background is predominantly pen-and-paper, from first edition DnD. Currently, wizards have an overwhelming advantage in version 3.5 RPGA. For a number of reasons, but one of them being that there are many good spells available in DnD. So, perhaps this colors my viewpoint some.

As Lark and others have mentioned, there are relatively few very desirable spells in BG2. Consequently, the versatility of the sorcerer does come to the forefront. Still, although spells that are useful in ToB are also useful in SoA, the converse is not necessarily true.

The reason I chose to use "slight" was my personal experience using Keldorn (True Sight) and Edwin. This wizard generally has the right spell for the job when I play him. There are plenty of hints in the game to help you know which spells to memorize before major encounters. I sometimes dual class him too.

I never practice the quicksave-reload cheese, and I very seldom die.

In the end, I would pick a wizard or sorcerer over any other class anyway - if I was interested in just powergaming. (And the wildmage or sorcerer would have top billing.)