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I'm thinking of playing a paladin (either that of a fighter/thief) and so far the class is appealing, except for the one pitfall: no evil party members would be allowable if you hardcore roleplay it. but then i got to thinking: why?

first off, the allignment system is misleading. there are shades of gray in SoA, and Viconia and Korgan are certainly examples of this. Viconia is an example of predjudice and ignorance clouding judgement of character, and i think at least a few paladins would look past her race and judge her by her actions (or in the romance's case, try to change her), and Korgan, while pushing it, isn't as indiscriminately psychotic as his allignemnt suggests. Edwin seems to be the only real evil NPC.

so i think it isn't bad roleplaying to go with evil party members. Korgan can be pushing it as I said, but out of neccesity and need of his fighting skillz, i think a paladin would be able to travel with him.

what are you people's thoughts on this subject?

*Spoiler Warning*

I personally had a blast with ol' Korgan even though i RPed a Chaotic Good char.. To me his only real Evil trait is that his egoism/greed are the determinative force behind his character and reaction to the world. But i think he's more Chaotic Neutral than Evil. Your paladin might get angry at Korgan when he teases Aerie for example, but remember, Jaheira does it too when she's struck by grief.

Korgan reacts to the world as a seasoned solider who has spilled a lot of blood (his own included) should - a but on the rough side and not very compassionate. But i remember a line of his that really made me glad i have him - something along the lines of (not a quote, this is what i remember) "Aye I've killed men, fairly or not, but anyone who hurts a child will get me axe in his gut"

And i'm addicted to Viccy, so my oppinion is biased. She just CAN'T be evil, i love her! :laugh:

If you really are 'hardcore roleplaying', then the question is moot really. A Paladin being role-played strictly wouldn't even be able to complete the main quest. Unless you are using the Saerileth mod, there's no way a truely role played Paladin can get to the Asylum. Something Black Isle seem to have overlooked. If you want to play a Paladin then I'd recommend downloading the saerileth mod Saerileth Mod.

Spoiler (highlight to read):

Spoiler

Unfortunately in the un-modded game you can only get to the asylum by working for one of two evil organisations, either the shadow thieves, or a vampire cult, obviously neither are acceptable to a Paladin.

As to working with evil characters, then if you really are roleplaying a Paladin, then they are not viable. Anyone who thinks Viconia isn't evil obviously has never had any conversations with her. Ditto Korgan.

galraen wrote:Anyone who thinks Viconia isn't evil obviously has never had any conversations with her. Ditto Korgan.

Spoilers:


I agree with you on Korgan but Viconia has at least the potential to become better. Unlike Korgan or Edwin, she's a victim of circumstance - think of her upbringing and what happened to her when she left the Underdark - she didn't get a chance to be less evil until she met Charname.
For what it's worth, I've always felt that Viconia, especially, is very good candidate for a good aligned party, even if your pc is a Paladin. After all, you get to try and get a powerful evil npc to change her ways. Same goes for Sarevok.
The whole alignment system in BG is very silly IMHO. In the BG series, lawful good seems a lot like blind hatred and bigotry.

Coot wrote:Spoilers:


I agree with you on Korgan but Viconia has at least the potential to become better. Unlike Korgan or Edwin, she's a victim of circumstance - think of her upbringing and what happened to her when she left the Underdark - she didn't get a chance to be less evil until she met Charname.
For what it's worth, I've always felt that Viconia, especially, is very good candidate for a good aligned party, even if your pc is a Paladin. After all, you get to try and get a powerful evil npc to change her ways. Same goes for Sarevok.
The whole alignment system in BG is very silly IMHO. In the BG series, lawful good seems a lot like blind hatred and bigotry.

With regard to non paladin good characters I agree with you regarding Viconia, one of my favourite runs through the game included my PC's quest to save her soul. Paladins generally aren't in the soul saving business though, intolerant bigots pretty well sums them up IMHO.:laugh: They are usually the enforcement arm of the 'church', retribution is their goal, reclaimation is the priests responsibility.

If there was a LG priest accompanying they party, then he/she would effectively be the Paladin's superior (even if lower in level) and could override the Paladins inclinations to dispatch all evil on sight I suppose.

If there was a LG priest accompanying they party, then he/she would effectively be the Paladin's superior (even if lower in level)

....
Only if they were of the same faith . As with any 'law enforcement' personnel, I believe Paladins are like any other...you have good cops and you have bad cops. A paladin of Ilmater would seek to end all suffering by removing the cause of said suffering whilst a paladin of Torm would be your "crusader" type paladin. A paladin of Lathander would be your best candidate for an Undead Slayer... A paladin would, like a priest, seek to further his/her god's goals whatever those goals may be....usually at the point of a sword but paladins are wise warriors and would seek a peaceful solution first if possible.

Sator wrote:
Korgan reacts to the world as a seasoned solider who has spilled a lot of blood (his own included) should - a but on the rough side and not very compassionate. But i remember a line of his that really made me glad i have him - something along the lines of (not a quote, this is what i remember) "Aye I've killed men, fairly or not, but anyone who hurts a child will get me axe in his gut"

This is very much typical of Korgan, he acts strongly toward situations where children have been hurt.
I think, what it boils down to, as has been mentioned, are shades of grey. Where are we drawing the lines between "evil" and "good?"
In the real world, people are not absolutely one way or the other, not usually. And while, the alignment system in the game is a bit silly, I do think this is reflected in the personalities of both Korgan and Viconia.

Getting back to Korgan, his attitude towards children reminds me a great deal of the "code of honour" that exists in gaols.... child molestors do not generally have a pleasant time of it...
Those cons are sort of like Korgan. They've killed, they've stolen or what have you.. but they often strongly believe in protecting the innocent. In terms of alignment, what does this make them?

Like you, I think Korgan is closer to chaotic neutral. It's an alignmment I personally like, because it allows for all shades of grey.

To go somewhat off topic, (as if we haven't already done so ), has anyone ever known a Paladin or Ranger to be actually stripped of her/his Paladin/Rangerhood in any computer D&D game?

galraen wrote:To go somewhat off topic, (as if we haven't already done so ), has anyone ever known a Paladin or Ranger to be actually stripped of her/his Paladin/Rangerhood in any computer D&D game?

There's the fallen paladins in Athkatla in SoA.
I tried to roleplay a fallen paladin in BG1 but it was predictably boring.

@DW: I very much like Viconia, Yoshimo and others because of the 'shades of grey' thing. I don't see how Korgan fits in there though. His anger at those who hurt childeren may give him a little more depth, but IMHO it's no more than a little. I don't see him as chaotic neutral, I think he really is chaotic evil. A dangerous sociopath who can explode into undirected, uncontrolled violence at any time. He's Wolverine gone bad. And unlike Viccy or Sarevok or even Yoshimo he doesn't, at any time, change for the better.
He doesn't have to, of course. I love him the way he is

Paladins were pretty much moulded from the Knights Templar, Knights Hospitaller and Teutonic Knights...ultra religious warriors with a cause. I think a wonderful example of a paladin in the movies is 'Silas' from the DaVinci Code. He may be a fallen paladin but he is definately a warrior of God doing what in his mind is the work of God but he is definately not Lawful Good. I have never agreed with the alignment restrictions on paladins...their alignment should depend on their deity's alignment. I also believe that they should be able to allow evil npcs into the party if it helps to promote the greater good. They may not like it but are smart enough to realise that it is the best way to get the job done
.........................................................and they can just say 10 hail marys later and be forgiven

I somehow doubt an D&D paladin would willingly mutilate himself on a regular basis well perhaps a Paladin of Illimater (spelling??) it's hard to give Silas a D&D class, he's a religious fanatic, a Paladin is not.

Thanks for the replies, bros.

I'm having a major problem deciding between a Paladin and a dualed fighter/thief to run through the saga...Both classes are very appealing to me, and while on one hand I love Viconia and Korgy, playing as a Paladin is very intriguing, too. Any idea which class posseses better RP/Fun value?

If you are considering a dualed fighter/thief and are interested in roleplay, might I suggest a bard instead?

For a long time I shied away from bards, but then I tried one out, and really enjoyed it, it was some of the most fun I've ever had in BG2. The bard stronghold is, IMO, one of the best as well.

beckettss wrote:I'm thinking of playing a paladin (either that of a fighter/thief) and so far the class is appealing, except for the one pitfall: no evil party members would be allowable if you hardcore roleplay it. but then i got to thinking: why?

first off, the allignment system is misleading. there are shades of gray in SoA, and Viconia and Korgan are certainly examples of this. Viconia is an example of predjudice and ignorance clouding judgement of character, and i think at least a few paladins would look past her race and judge her by her actions (or in the romance's case, try to change her), and Korgan, while pushing it, isn't as indiscriminately psychotic as his allignemnt suggests. Edwin seems to be the only real evil NPC.

so i think it isn't bad roleplaying to go with evil party members. Korgan can be pushing it as I said, but out of neccesity and need of his fighting skillz, i think a paladin would be able to travel with him.

what are you people's thoughts on this subject?

Have you thought of using the Helm of Opposite Alignment, then you can make those evil characters good?

We all know the Helm of Opposite Alignment switches the wearers alignment but how would it actually work?

How would you RP someone whose alignment has been switched.

I'd imagine someone who had murdered and pillaged their way across Faerun might question why they suddenly feel the need to hug and kiss everybody and oddly enough right after putting on this fancy new helmet.

And the Helm is Cursed too so even if you didn't notice your actions changing towards good you might notice that you can't get your helmet off your head.

It is a handy helm to have though!

Why on earth shouldn't a paladin associate with evil characters? Jesus Christ was villified for being a friend of sinners, but you cannot get any more lawful or good than him. The Salvation Army are lawful and good, but they spend their time with Drug Addicts and Prostitutes. The same goes for most truly lawful and good people. It is the hypocrites who don't.

Hmmm... I'm not looking to start a religious discussion but I'm not sure I'd consider Jesus lawful good... nevermind that the whole concept is silly...

Edit: Not Jesus, alignment.

As Onkel Bob has pointed out JC definitely wasn't lawful, bit difficult to consider a person who was leading a rebellion as being lawful. Even if one concedes he was lawful that still doesn't have any bearing on Paladins. Paladins are the militant wing of whichever religion they're a member of. Their task is to seek out and destroy evil wherever they find it, not consort with it. Proselytising and conversion is the role of the priesthood/missionaries.

Paladins aren't only the militant wing of the church they belong to. A paladin's primary relationship is with his deity directly, instructions from his Order or Church come second to this.

A paladin need not be a member of an Order or a Church. Evil comes in many forms and combating it is not necessarily best done with the blunt end of your warhammer. Most decent paladins would recognise the opportunity to redeem an evil party member or in the case of the irredeemable the opportunity to give that person up to the law in the nearest town.

This is where the person roleplaying the paladin has to decide which type of opportunity he has before him. Success or failure does not make the paladins decision right or wrong, it is simply a fact that life in the realms can lead to pretty much any outcome. You win some you lose some.

Rabain wrote:Paladins aren't only the militant wing of the church they belong to. A paladin's primary relationship is with his deity directly, instructions from his Order or Church come second to this.

A paladin need not be a member of an Order or a Church. Evil comes in many forms and combating it is not necessarily best done with the blunt end of your warhammer. Most decent paladins would recognise the opportunity to redeem an evil party member or in the case of the irredeemable the opportunity to give that person up to the law in the nearest town.

This is where the person roleplaying the paladin has to decide which type of opportunity he has before him. Success or failure does not make the paladins decision right or wrong, it is simply a fact that life in the realms can lead to pretty much any outcome. You win some you lose some.

I agree. Thus in TOSC when Mulhaney asks for mercy, a Paladin would give it and would only kill him when he proves devious. Similarly when Davaercorn's helper asks for mercy, a Paladin would give it, as he would when the mage Tranzig asks for mercy.