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Everybody's favorite Dwarven axe wielder, Korgan, doesn't "do" anything that could be classified as evil. His personal quest includes a dose of revenge, but then, he comes out looking better than his former teammates, who did the dirty on him; not the other way around. He sticks by you the whole way. He has a wicked edge to his tongue and a temper that can be riled quickly, but in that, he's no worse than many others. So where are the actions, in your opinion, that make him evil? Or is this simply a case of having to take on faith what we're told--and an effort to create an evil fighter for those who want evil/neutral parties?

I have my opinions. I want to hear yours.

Well.... He likes killing. He had no problems with-- highlight

Spoiler

poisoning the druids and the grove

-- and he don't like it when you do good deeds and he wanted me to kill Valygar. He isn't very evil...more like Chaotic Neutral with evil tendencies. The only truly evil npc is Edwin...he likes being evil. Viconia is a victim of her upbringing and circumstance and she has the ability to change her ways.

I posted about this subject in a thread on Paladins recently.

I really don't perceive Korgan as especially evil, as Pellinore stated, CN with evil leanings would be a more accurate classification.

Yes, he encourages the PC to

Spoiler

kill Valygar

(highlight), but at the same time he states on a couple of occasions that he views murdering or hurting children in any way as vile..

What I really think this boils down to is that D&D rules (esp. 2 ed), tend to lack shades of grey. This is why I sometimes prefer playing characters in the neutral range, it gets away from the extremes and allows for a bit more flexibility.

I suppose that what we are also dealing with is, how do we define concepts like good and evil? That is never clearcut, in my view.

Um, because if he wasn't evil, there wouldn't be enough despicable NPCs in BG2 to form a vile party?

Personally, I loathe pretty much all the evil NPcs save for Korgan. The guy is self interested, sure, but good and nuetral characters can be like that, too. I suppose I don't view our diminutive dwarf as being selfish because he is motivated by gold and revenge - rarely will one find a Paladin in the service "just to do good". At the very least he seeks favor from his God, and not rarely is he overly prideful of his acheivements, wallowing in the glory. Everyone does things for a reason; if anything Korgan is just brutally honest, letting you know he has a price for sticking his neck out.

And in the case of the Cowled Wizards he has been hired to do a job, and he wants to carry it out. I think that if a bounty hunter like the nuetral Yoshimo was the one taking the commission then would he buy into Valygar's story and take a risk, or would be just be concerned with the assignment he was given? It's something to think about.

Here's the link to the thread Dragon Wench referred to: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn-9/paladins-and-evil-party-members-84512.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn-9/paladins-and-evil-party-members-84512.html[/url] I personally like Korgan a lot, so the more threads about him, the better. I would go so far as to say that i find him to be the most amusing npc in the game - he has made me laugh much more than Jan Jansen and much, much more than that deranged oaf Minsc...

As i said already, he's more CN than CE in my book too.. He is rough and tough, doesn't like whining, does like to solve matters the violent way but he's not your typical high-fantasy villain. The closest real life example i could relate to him would be a viking warrior - a brutal raider, that rarely gives mercy and insists on getting his fair cut of the loot. He would not even flinch when he raids a church for it's gold, but would say his prayers to Odin/Thor/Bragi with utmost piety. He would come back to his wife and children, after pillaging Britain for example, and do all the things a "normal" person would.

I personally see him as CN, too. He can act unselfishly--unlike, say, Edwin, who is very much a dissociative sociopath.

Incidentally, if you enjoy anything about Korgan, Sator, try this. It's a curious mating of what I'm told was a popular tv series called Buffy the Vampire Slayer (a great name, if ever there was one) and BG2. I can't speak to the accuracy of the former, but Korgan's accent and character is perfect:

Korgan’s opponent was bleeding heavily from a deep axe wound but still managed to raise high an ornate wand. A pillar of flame seared down to strike Korgan. The dwarf ignored it and struck again. “Ach, ye lang sleekit scunner,” he growled. Tendrils of evil-smelling smoke arose from Korgan’s face. “Ah’ll larn ye tae singe ma beard!”

I have never seen Buffy, me living in Bulgaria and all means that nobody would buy the rights to the TV series and air them. Our cable time is preoccupied with reality cr*p and Big Brother clones.. I could download the episodes if it's that good, but to be honest, I've only heard of Buffy because of Sarah Michelle Gellar Anyway the link is an entertaining read, thanks!

I don't see Korgan as Evil. On multiple occasions he stated how he hates slavery especially on children.

He's the product of the tough environment on Faerun. He seems extremely realistic; for example when he doesn't give a slave child a mere 100 gold because he says she'll be found robbed and murdered within a fortnight.

He is definitly very greedy and would do alot for gold, but he's not like Edwin for example who strikes me as evil. (I love him though because he can pull of rude/egoistic/funny with that eastern european accent of his masterfully)

Back on topic, I feel Korgan extremely hard to classify. Having him neutral or chaotic evil simply doesn't do him justice, Chaotic neutral hardly applies because he's not like Jan or Tiax. He goes about his appointed task with a *purpose* and *determination* those characters lack, for example he nags you to go find the book of Kaza whereas a CN char would just say whatever I can get it in an year or 2.

Classifing him as any other neutral just doesn't fit, neither does any good aligment. I would go with Neutral/Greedy (dwarf) but that just isn't there

dragon wench wrote:
I suppose that what we are also dealing with is, how do we define concepts like good and evil? That is never clearcut, in my view.

In my opinion, what makes an action good or evil is the motivation. Therefore you can have two characters who do identical things, one is good and the other evil. Thus in ToSC, you end up killing Saverok whatever your alignment.
The question is, are your actions motivated by kindness or not. If yes, then they are good, if not, then they are evil. That puts Korgan as evil, even if a majority of people are more so.

wise grimwald wrote:In my opinion, what makes an action good or evil is the motivation. Therefore you can have two characters who do identical things, one is good and the other evil. Thus in ToSC, you end up killing Saverok whatever your alignment.
The question is, are your actions motivated by kindness or not. If yes, then they are good, if not, then they are evil. That puts Korgan as evil, even if a majority of people are more so.

But then you have to show that Korgan's motivations are predominantly both selfish and harmful to others who are not evil, and there's no evidence for either in the game. Nothing is provided along these lines.

Exactly! Although we condemn greed as an evil trait, we have just seen Korgan act as a mercenary - he wants his payment and he wants to undertake more quests that would potentially bring in more gold. He does not, for example, try to rob the party as they are sleeping and run off in the night, as a truly evil greedy person would. We could even go so far as to say that, although he does not say it, he grows fond of the PC and the rest of the party. I mean, he stuck with them trough the most horrible trials, and has faced almost certain death bravely enough to call it more than mere greed.

I had quite a similar observation on Korgan. Among the team members he is quite rude and likes to insult them, and underlining his superiority. But on hearing of some quest, I don't remember which, he said something about "you better convince Shimmaeil (main char name), she's the leader here". I was quite suprised. And I liked his remark on giving the child 100 gp. It was realistic, and struck me as much wiser than Keldorn could ever manage. Odd, that.

The only moment I found him really disgusting was on talking to a prostitute (why did I start a conversation with a prostitute, by the way? :laugh: ), when she said dwarfs made her hot, he replied "Bah! I like when my girls struggle and spit me inna face" or something. I contemplated heavily killing him then, but instead I just set him without gear on a next fight and waited till he was near death to help. :mischief: Then I did not heal him. He, ekm... infuriated me.

I think that game makers figured that good people were nice, obedient and unselfish, and evil were rude, disobedient and greedy. These are, IMO, the most visible strategies of creating characters of both sides.

Sator wrote:We could even go so far as to say that, although he does not say it, he grows fond of the PC and the rest of the party. I mean, he stuck with them trough the most horrible trials, and has faced almost certain death bravely enough to call it more than mere greed.

He also never urges the party towards despicable actions, which in turn would show "evil" motivations of his. The worst he does is demonstrate irritability

Spoiler

when confronted by a group of former associates on the second floor of an inn

, and that's hardly a quality absent in the saintly.

"Bah! I like when my girls struggle and spit me inna face"

- i have yet to come across this specific line of Korgan's.. But, well just saying that doesn't make him a rapist. One could assume that the majority of women he meets are either harlots on the streets or serving girls at the tavern.. Neither strike me as the innocent type as far as the Forgotten Realms are concerned.

Personally i was sort of disgusted with him when Viccy reminded him how drunk he got last night and how he slept in his own vomit.. Silly dwarf! Overall, i guess we all agree that, though Korgan is no Prince Charming riding his white horse in shining full plate, he still is, more or less, one of the not-so-bad guys we could live with.. And could rely upon, more importantly.

well he does urge the player to side with Bodhi, but again he his motivation is that it costs 5000 cheaper (assuming you have not yet renegotiated with Gaelan Bayel)

I for one don't consider him a bad guy and like his no nonsense attitude

Sator wrote:- One could assume that the majority of women he meets are either harlots on the streets or serving girls at the tavern..

That's all right, then? :speech:

The thing is, there are no really evil deeds to be done in BG - we have been given examples on the most "evil" of Korgan's acts, and they're not very demonic, are they? He could do some really evil things, murder npc's instead of hearing their quests etc, but it would have no point. So he just grumbles.

I suspect a lot of all this has to do with the fact that BG2 is heavily weighted to playing "good."
This is probably why Edwin is the only truly "evil" NPC....
Though, honestly, I'm not so sure I even find Edwin all that bad, the humour of his comments sort of puts an overlay, or gloss, on the more "despicable" elements of his character

OK QuenGalad i admit i can't stop arguing to save my life.. No it does not make it ok, i am totally against rape (one of the very few things that can make me kill a man in cold blood). What i meant was that maybe the ol' boy was exaggerating a bit.. Anyway the discussion was about what we actually see him do - which is, pretty much nothing as evil as his alignment suggests.

This Thavian male is as red blooded as his cloak, Viconia, and has left many a concubine gasping, under his erotic onslaught... - :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Edwin the pimp..

LOL just for that I think I'll take viconia and Edwin together

I apologize for my overreacting. I'm sure You meant nothing wrong, Sator

And I totally agree with Dragon Wench, even Edvin the Evil is too funny to be evil. It's hard to create an evil character without exaggeration (double g or not? ) in some way - too cruel/rude/brutal/stupid sometimes... and, well, "what makes Korgan evil?" "- need of an evil character in the game."