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Here's KUPP (v3). You'll notice a few minor changes on one character, and then a complete overhaul on the other three:

Character 1: Deep Gnome Male, CN
STR 16 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 18 WIS 5 CHA 1
Bbn3/Rog3/Ftr4/Ill20

He's my decoy, a decent tank, thief, backup arcane spellcaster, and loremaster. All stat increases will go to DEX. He'll be using a shield for a better AC, will hold the Xvimian Fang Dagger when casting offensive spells, and will wear the Drakkas Chain armor. His increased speed from the Barbarian class will help him be the first character targetted by the enemies, and is useful for a scout. Skills include Alchemy, Search, Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Open Locks, Pick Pockets, Knowledge: Arcana.

Character 2: Aasimar Female, LG
STR 8 DEX 16 CON 18 INT 12 WIS 6 CHA 20
Sorc27/Pal3

This is my main spellchucker. All stat increases go into CHA. Skills are Concentration and Spellcraft (up to 9 only for the elemental feats). Paladin levels won't be taken until late in the game. She'll be firing a Crossbow for the early levels.

Character 3: Drow Female, CN
STR 18 DEX 18 CON 16 INT 5 WIS 18 CHA 5
Cleric (Tempus)18/Druid 12

This character is my secondary tank, and a heckuva Divine spellcaster. All stat increases go towards STR (maybe some WIS late). Her only skill is Concentration. Come HoF, she won't go near combat, but will still hurl axes into the fray when not casting spells. The Druid levels are taken later, because they're mostly for Barkskin for my decoy.

Character 4: Drow Female NE
STR 8 DEX 8 CON 14 INT 16 WIS 18 CHA 16
Bard 11/Cleric (Bane) 19

This is my diplomat. I figured Bane was the perfect Cleric deity for a diplomat, with it's bonuses to the conversation skills. My stat increases will all go to WIS. This character will concentrate on all of the dialogue skills.


I really appreciated all of the help with my last attempt at a party. Any and all advice for this one is welcome!

Looks like a good party with everyone having a main class!

I tried a drow Bard/Cleric and found it hard to allocate stats but sounds like you even managed to have some intelligence to open up for diplomacy skills. One piece of advice is to start with Bard1 for skills/song then go cleric untill you unlock high level spells. If you split between Cleric and bard you will be stuck with a character of only limited contribution ie no key high level spells. You only need to go to cleric 15 or 16 actually since cleric 17 just gives you a nice domain spell maybe or just gate and MS 9. Then level up bard to 3,5,11 each all at once. I never found 7, 9 songs useful but maybe thats just me. Bane sounds like the right choice.

In summation a tank, 2 clerics, and a sorceror should be just the ticket!

claudius

Char 1 - This looks better. I'd be a little concerned about 5 Wis, because the character will be depending a lot on innate magic resistance to make up for fairly horrendous Will saves until the Ill class gets going, and will not get MR increases from either of the Monk or Paladin classes. Take Iron Will. Despite this character being conceptualized as a decoy, you may want to put some of those level-up points into Str. A deep gnome illusionist with evasion will be plenty good at avoiding damage without a couple of extra AC points.

Char 2 - Why 3 levels of paladin as opposed to just 2? Aura of Courage and Divine Grace (or whatever the Cha bonus to saves is called) is all you really need from the Pally class. Again, Wis is an issue, so make sure you burn a feat on Iron Will, the earlier the better. Paladin levels shouldn't be taken too late, e.g. HoF - as paladins gain a stat increase from a certain quest... twice.

Char 3 - You know my thoughts already on having two divine casters in the same character. That said, Tempus clerics lose less than some other deities with this kind of character - generally duration, not damage - so it's a better choice.

Char 4 - I'd be inclined to boost Cha with two points from Con for better dialogue skills and bardic spellcasting. With Dex 8 (!) you aren't going to want this one anywhere near combat anyway. Make sure you take GSF: Enchantment, as it'll help with both classes. This character should make an excellent support character, so much so that I'd recommend adding more characters to better take advantage of it.

I wouldn't call it ultimate (IMO ultimate is 6 characters, not 4 ), but it has few flaws and should be quite strong.

Thanks everybody!

Aerich, I conceptualized 3 Paladin levels because there's more of a benefit to Pal 3 over Pal 2 as opposed to Sorc 28 over Sorc 27. I might just go 1 or 2, since I really don't want to lose focus of the main power of this character.

As for the real power being in 4, I agree. I will (eventually) add two more, if I feel like it. I really do feel comfortable with these four though, and I've always preferred a smaller party.

I disagree with claudius about character4. The bard songs are extremely powerful, so I'd take the bard1-cleric1-bard5 order.
Cleric 17 yields the very powerful domain spell mass dominate.

I wouldn't bother much about wolf's clothing, eagle's splendor is a level 2 spell which yields 2-5 cha for hours.

Increasing "Bluff" needs 1 bard skill point but 2 cleric skill points, so increase it it only at bard level ups.
16 int isn't neccessary, there are only 3 diplomatic skills and it doesn't matter if you are 10 or 20 ranks higher than neccessary, I'd only raise wis at level up.
Even character 2 can take you through the game as diplomat without spending additional skillpoints.
Taking the "mercantile background" feat with character 2 will help more than all dialogue options you get for maxed out diplomatic skills with character 4.

Thanks kman.

I thought "mercantile background" just helped with money when buying and selling stuff. I planned on having my diplomat talk to NPCs, but have my Sorc/Pally (with the higher CHA) do all the shopping.

I know "Eagle's Splendour" is an awesome spell, but I figure I may as well use the wolf threads for when those spells run out. At least the cap, there aren't many useful helmets I'm told.

I edited the initial thread to reflect lowering the diplomats INT to 14 and increasing CHA to 16. I guess I'll just make 1 wolf hat, and have my Sorc/Pally wear it.

I can see why you disagree kmonster. Bard5cleric1 is better than bard1cleric5. However then things change. Bard5Cleric7 is not as good as Bard1Cleric11.

Thats just my opinion. I don't think it really matters as normal is pretty easy and you can get a lot of levels out of normal and reach a strong power by HOF.

Just don't take Bard11Cleric9 instead of Bard5Cleric15 which would be a clear loss as then you have 2 weak casting classes and albeit the best bard singing possible...What do you think? I'd rather have the Cleric 15 than war chant which is only superior to tymoras melody in some situations.

What do you think on my third paragraph kmonster? I believe you have played this game and given advice more than me!!

claudius

PS all this is in light of my prohibition on stacking multiple songs...if I wanted to cheat I could on/off level one bard song till I'm doing +1000 to hit and damage for 3 rounds.

My goal is to go Bard 11/Cleric1, then Cleric all the way.

I have another Cleric in the party, but no other Bard.

Many of these levels will be squatted.

Two clerics is nice, though, especially when one of them is a Dreadmaster. With only four characters I'd say it's necessary for all characters to have a significant effect in heavy fights - and with only one tank, I'd say a bard's songs are not significant enough.

Re the Pally/Sorc, it's probably advisable to take the pally levels somewhere in the mid-game (e.g. before starting Dragon's Eye). As you won't be able to take pally levels except all in a row, taking three levels instead of two will slow down the sorc's development.

I thought you could only take mercantile background with pure humans, not human sub-races. I could be wrong, I never use the feat.

PC1: why DG?! just for the AC bonus? I would prefer Drow, especially with this party and not using Weimar!

...with this party, you will need a good tank in the early game and DG and especially without weimar is just to slow for this!


PC2: would take the 2 Pal levels first! Ok, you will get high level spells slower, but on the other hand you get an excellent tank in the early game!

and +5 on all saves right away from the start is just to good!

just cast MI, blink, blur than put on the best armor and shield and no one can stop him/her until mid-game! (btw.: a golem killer par excellence!)


PC3&4: I would strongly recommend to keep things seperated! Clerics are good but not that good! And not on this level. Have one that goes to L25 (illmater build so that you can add pal and monk levels at each point) and the other one with L15 to L17 - btw. the bard-druid is really fun to play!

And if you really want to start with 4, take the druid/bard from the beginning and add the support cleric later!

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@Klorox: "mercantile background" only helps to save money, but the dialogue skills don't do more. You just might get a few extra GP and XP, worth far less than the money you'll save with "mercantile background".

@Claudius: Like Klorox said, he already has another cleric.
Don't underestimate bard songs. 1 round of singing the level 5 songs yields enourmous saving throw bonusses (for some characters it's more than 6 wisdom bonus) and about +2 average bonus damage to any physical attack any allied creature starts during 3 rounds, so it can yield far more than 40 extra damage. It's similar with the other songs.
I also think that a bard11/cleric9 yields a superior back-up character than bard5/cleric15.

About your 3rd paragraph: Personal preferences. I personally think that 2 characters of the same class are boring, no matter how overpowered this class is. If I'd play this game again I'd take 1 fighter/paladin, 1 cleric, 1 druid, 1 bard, 1 rogue/transmuter and 1 sorc.

I'm flirting with tweaking this party, ever so slightly.

I plan on changing characters 2 and 4 a bit.

Character 2:

Aasimar Pal 1 or 2/SorcX
STR 8 DEX 10 CON 18 INT 18 WIS 6 CHA 20
I figure I can make this character my loremaster and cover all of the dialogue skills. She'll now be the diplomat of the group.

Character 4:

Female Drow Bard 12/Dreadmistress of Bane 18
STR 10 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 5 WIS 16 CHA 15
Now this character just maximizes the Concentration skill. These changes make the character much more effective in combat. She'll be a deadshot with a crossbow (planning on using Dragus Bolter later on), which is a sweet missile weapon. She'll just refresh singing every three rounds, and then either fire away or cast a spell.

Since most Clerical and Bard spells are centered towards buffing rather than offensive force (like the Sorcerer spells), I thought this would balance the party out a bit more offensively. Character 2 can blast with spells while Character 4 can fire away with a weapon. With the old lineup, I think I might run into a few situations where Character 4 is useless except for singing. This lineup allows Character 1 to free up one skill, which will only make his other skills stronger. Since Character 1 gets so many feats, I think I'll still have him focus on Alchemy for Envenom Weapon later on.

I'm not sure that I like those tweaks.

I agree with Pal2 instead of Pal3, and if you're going to take 1 Pally level you might as well take two for Aura of Courage, especially as there's some weak will saves among your party.

I really don't like taking points out of Dex for Int, though. 18 Int isn't necessary to get all the skill points that you need. You could skip Alchemy altogether as you said Char 1 will do that. This character will have decent adjusted skills in all the talking skills already, so you don't have to put a point to those at every level-up. You want Concentration and Spellcraft (must-haves) with Knowledge Arcana, and you can get away with bumping the talking skills at every other level. 18 Int is too much. 14 is preferable (with Spellcraft only up to a modified 10 ranks, Concentration taken at every level-up, and KA taken where you have room), and 16 is the upper limit. Bumping Cha at every opportunity and buffed with Eagle's Splendor, you won't need that many points in the talking skills. You still want a few extra points in Dex for ranged attacks and a bit more AC.

On Char 4, I don't like the stat alterations. Why take points out of both prime stats for a split-spellcaster character and put them into Dex? It will make any offensive spells this character casts less effective. Yes, it's a buffer, but as a spellcaster it also shines as an enchantment-spell specialist, and taking points from Wis and Cha hurts the effectiveness of both classes in that respect. You also lose bonus spells. A simple hard-to-save-against Hold Person on things mobbing your tank-decoy makes the game easier that being a bit better with a missile weapon. In terms of level distribution, if you must take Bard, only take it up to lvl 11. A lvl 19 cleric compared to a lvl 18 cleric gets one extra spell at each of spell lvls 5, 7, and 9. Bard 12 compared to bard 11 gets one extra lvl 4 spell, and that's it.

Envenom Weapon isn't that great - it's only useable once per day and allows a Fortitude save, so it'll be nearly useless in HoF. Char 1 won't get that many feats, it's only a lot in comparison with the rest of your non-human, non-fighter crowd. I don't think specialist wizards get the extra feat every 5 wizard levels that pure wizards have. Char 1 would be most effective as a decoy with Expertise, Dodge, Lightning Reflexes (for better Evasion) and Iron Will. To make it better as a damage dealer, take Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Critical, and weapon specialization. More marginal feats include Dirty Fighting (useful for low damage characters in normal mode, somewhat useful if it hits in HoF) and Arterial Strike, and I'd group Envenom Weapon with these two as things to take later on if at all.

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General: forget wasting stat for INT to increase skills on builds that don't need INT! Just take the bard druid build for this! You will improve your whole party with doing this, especially as you can remodel PC3 and PC4 after doing this!

And don't even think about ranged weapons in HOF! As you need at least 3 melee capable tanks to protect your lower AC builds!


PC1: I agree with Aerich, and btw. it was never my intention to build a pure decoy at least not with my PC1 build!!! This one is also a great damage dealer and a good back-up caster (so I would never take a specilization for this one!) so I would strongly recommend for the fighter feats! And take a drow to get rid off the spec and give him some protection against will-based spells (as you party is definetly dead in a minute if this one ever gets charmed!)


PC2: forget about INT, this one is not just a great caster it's also one of your best tanks when you don't need him/her for casting! (Killed all Golems on her own!!!) and will certainly wield cera sumat (MR!), so max. CHA, min. INT and keep STR, CON, WIS, DEX on a more or less equal level! Take the 2 Pal level at once and give her later 3 monk levels for evasion (reflex saves!!!) and speed!


PC3&4: Just rebuild these to something usefull!

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PC1 (Deep Gnome decoy): It is my intention to build a good decoy. He's got dodge, expertise, ect. He's also a formidable backup spellcaster. It's possible I'll add an additional Barb level (4) just for another Rage, but I'll see how much I actually use it.

PC2 (Aasimar Sorc/Pal): I'll take Aerich's advice and start her INT at 14. This is a good balance of skills, and allows me to raise her DEX to 12, which should help in some fights.

PC3 (Drow Cleric of Tempus/Druid): This character is a tank. The Druid levels are for the decoy in HoF.

PC4 (Drow Cleric of Bane/Bard): This is my archer in regular mode. In HoF, she's a singer/backup character. I'll take Aerich's advice and have her go level 19/11. I'm also switching her stats for a starting 18 WIS (and 8 STR).

SD: I don't understand why you don't think characters 3 & 4 are useful. They're my healers and buffers. Could you please elaborate?

I wouldn't add another Barb level just for the piddling benefit of another Rage. You're going to buff the decoy/damage soak at every turn, so Bull's Strength or Champion's Strength should always be one of those buffs. I'd rather another level of Illusionist for spells, or perhaps even another level of fighter if you'd get another feat out of it.

I think's SD's criticisms of characters 3 & 4 is that some of those classes are far more powerful in builds that do not require such intensive level-splitting. Generally speaking, a cleric-based character is strongest when taken primarily (e.g. 20+ levels) as a cleric, with only minor mix-ins, often as a 4/3/3 to maximize save increases and possible class benefits. 11 or 12 levels of another class aren't exactly minor.

To some degree, I share those criticisms. I'm very fond of druids, and to take druid levels without having it as the major class of a character just feels wrong. As for the Banite, it is a powerful spellcaster that IMO could suffer from excessive bard levels. However, I believe both of those characters as originally set up can be effective. Char 3 should be a two-spells-and-attack type of meleer in normal mode while Char 1 holds the line, and I'd recommend trying to get all the cleric levels before going for druid. Char 4 IMO should be used primarily as a caster (say Bard1/Cleric 16 by the end of the game), with it's strength in cursing or paralyzing the enemy. I do know, though, that you want to take the bard levels first. As I've said before, I'm not sold on bard songs as all that effective in HoF (e.g. not enough to spend every third round singing). To get the most mileage out of a bard, you really need more characters to benefit from its buffs and singing.

This party could really increase its effectiveness with another tank and another bomber. Adding those characters at a later date isn't necessarily optimal, because you've structured Chars 3 & 4 to take duties that Chars 5 & 6 would take if part of the party from the beginning.

Alright Aerich, let me see if I understand. I've read what you've typed, but are you also kinda saying that intense spellcasting classes don't multiclass well (aside from dipping) because you don't get the full benefits until very late into the game?

I'm considering revamping this thing one more time, but I really need to get it down tonight/early tomorrow. I'm going to have an opportunity to get a lot of gaming in tomorrow, and that only happens about 1/month in my busy schedule.

I might need to go to 6 characters, but even if I do, I'd like to start with only 4 (or even 3!), as the early quick level-ups on critical characters makes a big difference IMHO.

Yes. A lvl 16 wizard will whip a lvl 8/8 wiz/cleric, for example.

I guess I'm mostly saying that a significant spellcasting class (wizard/specialist, sorceror, cleric, druid) IMO is most effective playing the normal game as almost "pure"; exceptions are the Pally2/Sorc, because the benefits are so good, and the Rogue2/Wizard, because you need rogue skills and there's issues with getting scrolls early enough with pure arcane casters anyway. I also make an exception for a casting class taking a level of fighter, ranger, or barbarian for the obvious benefits (e.g. fighter1/cleric for a tank or barbarian1/druid for a speedier caster that can rage while shapeshifted).

Splitting evenly or even up to 70-30 between two casting classes doesn't work very well except for characters that are focused primarily on support (e.g. the bard/druid or bard/cleric mix). I'd say only one of those max per party. With rare exceptions, major casting classes do need to max out their potential (e.g. multiple lvl 9 spells with the accompanying spells of lower level), as anything else you can mix in isn't going to be as effective as adding more high level spell slots. This consideration wanes when you already have several high level slots, thus allowing mix-ins without harming the spellcasting potential of the class. Five or so levels of wizard or one level of a spellcasting class that allows for use of particular items is about the only low-level casting class addition that pays dividends.

Gotchya. I'm really hoping I can work out something that'll work.

I'd love to have a decent enough party for both normal and HoF modes!

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First: you can beat HOF with all parties you already had, even if it will be harder with v.2 then with v.1.

But we are talking about UPP - from this point of view both parties are far away from "ultimate". Btw. I always avoided to call my party concept "ultimate".... ;-)


For PC1: just don't understand why you choose DG for this as it give much more disadvantages then a Drow!

For PC3&4: 18 to 20 are the worst levels for a cleric in HOF, as L) spells are completly useless! Take one primary caster: Illmater 25 - Pal (Ill) 2 - Monk (Ill) 3 with maxed WIS and a backup cleric: Bane (15-17) low WIS (9-12) and add mix-ins (like my PC2) to get an excellent tank (and decoy)

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