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OK, I realise this is something of a heavy topic in a game forum...sorry
But, possibly inspired by some of the fanfic I've read recently, I was thinking a bit about the charges of racism often levied against various factions in Vvardenfell.
Now... when it comes to the fact that slavery is practiced on the island, I think those accusations are entirely justified.
However.... what about the rest of the population? Remember, even if the Imperials are a stabilizing force, they are still colonisers. Surely a little hostility is understandable, particularly on the part of the Ashlanders.

Thoughts?

dragon wench wrote:OK, I realise this is something of a heavy topic in a game forum...sorry
But, possibly inspired by some of the fanfic I've read recently, I was thinking a bit about the charges of racism often levied against various factions in Vvardenfell.
Now... when it comes to the fact that slavery is practiced on the island, I think those accusations are entirely justified.
However.... what about the rest of the population? Remember, even if the Imperials are a stabilizing force, they are still colonisers. Surely a little hostility is understandable, particularly on the part of the Ashlanders.

Thoughts?

I can remember the surprise I had when the first time I played through, I had joined house Hiaalu and could not believe that they had a slave plantation.
Because of the slavery issue, I have never played as an Imperial, and have made a point of each successive game of freeing as many slaves as possible.

One of the things that irks me is when people refer to me by my race, makes me want to educate them with a blunt instrument. Almost as bad as when they refer to my Dark Elf characters as 'Outlander', it's bad enough when another DE says it, but when it's an Impy I really want to thump the git.

I've often toyed with the idea of making a mod that allows the PC to lead a revolt against the Impies and drive them out of Vardenfell, after all that's what the prophecies say the Nerevarine (sp?) is going to do. One of the things that disappointed me about both Oluhan and Juniper's Twin Lamps is that they didn't finish the job.

OK, it took me some time to realize what Impi could mean in your slang, because my previous knowledge says that Impi is a Zulu warrior, and in a second I was referring in my mind to Red guards, which are very close to Blacks in our world!

Nevermind, once I have realized that you talk about Imperials, I got to agree with it!

Actually, beside Imperials, somehow I feel that Altmers are a major cause of negative political relations and therefore historical events in Vvardenfell!

But that somehow goes deep inside of the main quest storyline!

You know Vivec and Almalexia!!!(I just enjoy the bloodbath every time I come to that point, my characters are usually avoiding the violence as answer, but historical judgment is inevitable when I play it)

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The very major issue of the game exposed in this thread is what makes her incredibly valuable IMHO. There is no game that offers so much political confrontation that's so good in describing human history on a symbolic level!

Well put, K.
by the way, welcome to the forums.
and like the screen name..old movie buff perhaps?

I think one of the worst things in the game is how the "beast" races cannot wear helms or boots...........

BlueSky wrote:Well put, K.
by the way, welcome to the forums.
and like the screen name..old movie buff perhaps?

Thank you for the welcome, no fishy sticks around!

Yeah, old movies, but new movies too!

AmpaSand wrote:I think one of the worst things in the game is how the "beast" races cannot wear helms or boots...........

That's common sense not racism.

I remember when I found the slave market in Suran for the first time. I was shocked. I'd encountered slaves in caverns and I thought they were slaves illegally. All my Characters in the game free any slaves they come across and deal harshly with the owners. Also what Galraen said about the outlander thing, that annoys me to.

It annoyed me how static the slaves were. They didn't do anything at all - if you freed them, they didn't go and join a faction and start a resistance. If you bought your own slaves, you couldn't give them equipment or give them decent orders.

As for racism, has anyone played LGNPCP for Ald Velothi? I think the thing with them calling you an outlander is that you don't come from vvardenfel, so your accent is different or something.

I also hate that when you start (this was my argonian character) walking through balmora i heard someone say filthy lizard so i tried to kill them. opps.

I feel that the whole racism thing adds to the reality of the game world. The game atmosphere is more grim because of it. I remember playing a khajit for a short time when i just bought MW and in the back of my mind I always wondered if my char, if he'd made a mistake, could end up as somebody's slave.

@Galraen; such a mod would certainly get my attention

Ok, the topic is two months old and I'll probably be glassed for this..

I never really had the whole "crusader for freedom," mentality. I think it's wholly realistic for a nation at the rough level of Vvardenfell (sp, I know) to have slaves - in essence, the place is a feudal theocracy run by local strongarms who have just recently been put under Imperial rule.

But, as I see it, the Empire seems to be more along the lines of, much like the Roman Empire, "Pay us taxes and you can do whatever on Earth you want."

Honestly, if you look at the government system of the whole Province, it's basically a corrupt, rampantly authoritarian, theocratic dictatorship with little to no conception of human (or whatever =P) rights, a relatively basic "survival of the fittest" idea of who should rule. It's generally run by the council, who also employ their own individual army of soldiers and inquisitors (Ordinators) who operate independently of any checks and balances to (violently) suppress any heretical or non-orthodox views of the church.

The areas NOT under the total command of the Tribunal (e.g., Balmora, those Telvanni tower-cities) are under the basic autonomous control of local warlords and strongmen, with little to no oversight coming from any central authority. There seems to be NO formal or informal civil service operating these towns, Whatever administration there is, is rampantly corrupt and is generally either easily bought or disposable.

Not to mention, whatever relative organization IS present happens to come from the war between the houses, or a structure necessary simply to keep court infighting at a minimum - which generally fails miserably.

Law centers around the most basic of violations (i.e., don't kill someone, don't steal), and is looked out for, enforced, and JUDGED by law officers! This basically means that the entire land of Vvardenfell has neglected any sort of law code implimented by standard courts of law.

So, let's go over this. Vvardenfell is: A nation -AT BEST- governed by a repressive, militaristic, ultra-conservative religious body ready and willing to use physical force to retain their power and repress conflicting views. And just a little worse, a nation without any central government, held very loosely together by a common mythological system and culture, governed by the threat of force and without any overriding or checking authority by local strongmen.

In either case, it's a system that's devoid of courts of law, of any established legal system or precedent other than "don't steal from bretheren," etc., and follows clan law that's been absent in organized civil systems for god-knows-how-long - namely, "trial by ordeal." Also, it's a system that allows guards to at will enforce the law and summarily execute criminals.

Judging by this, I'd say racism and slavery is the LEAST of one's concerns in entering Vvardenfell. If one wanted to take the entire "freedom from slavery" ticket, it would be far more effective (and sensible) to personally hunt down and slaughter each and every one of the Ordinators.

This is why I generally had little problem with slavery in the game.

As for "racism," I don't necessarily see it as such. Barring the fact that I can't truly call Vvardenfell a nation (for such reasons as I've already stated, i.e., the absence of any decent government or civil law), I would append to it more a tone of "nationalism," or "chauvinism," than pure racism. Not to mention, I don't think it can be called "racism" as such, because often the insults are levied against someone/thing of an actual species.

I see "racism" as more along the lines of discriminating against one of the same species, but with a different appearance solely because of that appearance. I wouldn't call someone saying, "Dirty lizard" a racist (unless "lizard" was an epithet for some race), because they're insulting something of a different species. A bit of a quibble, but I don't see it as racism.

Speciesism maybe? =P But then again, we're all guilty of that - everyone here going to tell me they don't have a special dislike for bugs, or spiders, or whatever? I know I'd FREAK if I saw a huge spider in my shower.

A few notes to people in the thread:

Greg: A slave "rebellion," or "resistance," is generally a very rare thing. The few times it did happen, or was planned in say, American history, they were quickly put down and the participents killed. Or, the leaders were squealed on, like what happened with Denmark Vesey. Likewise in Roman history - the reason we hear about Spartacus is because it's absolutely phenomenal that a slave rebellion actually survived that long.

Consider it: you have military strength, discipline, and the entire apparatus of an organized state backing this one army, at the very least given some of the most difficult military training and discipline in the known world, and on the other hand you have a group of rabble haphazardly armed. Who would you put your money on?

I'd sincerely hope the organized military. And, in about 99% of those circumstances, you'd be right.

Also, think about it. If some guy just came along and said, "you're free," would YOU, honestly, just run off? Where would you go, in an entire nation wrapped in slavery? How would you survive? This is how slavery has lasted so long - it's so engrained into the social system that the slaves eventually go, "Well, I've really nowhere else to go, so I mind as well stay."

Considering that the slaves ASK to be freed and then do nothing, it is kind of annoying.

Take into account that you can either pay the fine or elect to go to jail, and judging by the "bad people" quest (centring on a corrupt judge), I would say that you can elect to be tried in court or pay the fine.

Greg. wrote:Considering that the slaves ASK to be freed and then do nothing, it is kind of annoying.

Take into account that you can either pay the fine or elect to go to jail, and judging by the "bad people" quest (centring on a corrupt judge), I would say that you can elect to be tried in court or pay the fine.

True as for the slaves, I'll admit. Not very surprising that they don't move though, considering they have amazing trouble trying to follow you across a field. e.e

I suppose the judge as well could be correct; however, it doesn't negate the fact that we see little to no other evidence of any sort of organized, civil administration. Further, we see no evidence of any law court or any judge in game. It could just be that they drag you in front of a guard captain or some other similar figure and have them sentence you, and based on the already expansive powers of what are basically law-enforcing military soldiers, I don't think this is too far of an assumption.