GameBanshee Forums

Hi everyone. In the face of all the recent discussions regarding a bug-fixes-only patch here and elsewhere I thought the whole issue over and I think it is possible to include something like this in my next unofficial patch. This would be just another folder I would call BASIC which you would need to extract on top of the usual patch to do about the following and more similar stuff eventually:

+ No bonus xp for freeing Ash, killing Bruno, leaving Zhao alive,
getting Imalia's magazine or skipping the tutorial.
+ No humanity changes connected to dealings with Copper, Imalia,
Ash, Wong Ho, Hannah, Jeannette and Tourette.
+ Books are available again from Trip (but the duplicates will
stay in the other levels to ease double usage).
+ Occult items and blood are available again from Tseng (with
Galdjum instead of Fae Charm because of the Isaac bug).
+ CD quest restored to Nosferatu and second Imalia quest removed.
+ Larry quest condition restored and Jeanette encounter removed.
+ All weapon names and firing stats restored to original.
+ All restored occult items removed from the game.
+ No crossbows available from Slater and Tseng.
+ No body armor available from Mercurio.
+ Restored conditions for Christopher.
+ Restored conditions for Johansen.
+ Ox gives just money as a reward.
+ Venus gives original money cut.

Would anyone be interested in a patch like that? Or shouldn't I bother because I won't include alternative map versions to not blow the patch size out of any proportion which means the following more fundamental things would still apply:

+ All illogical spawning and respawning is removed.
+ Almost all enemies will drop their weapons on death.
+ Some illogical placed weapons have been moved or swapped.
+ Unused dialogue lines, models and encounters have been restored.

How about the restored new occult items? They could be easily removed but was anyone actually annoyed by them?

Doesn't sound to bad in my opinion. I would give it a try. There are allways purists out there. While II like mods and new stuff too, sometimes it's just nice to play it the old way again.

Wesp, if you want to make the BASIC folder for those that prefer the original, then by all means do.

I on the other hand, will continue to look forward to your "adapted and improved" patches which I feel add more colour and flavour to the game. I appreciate all your work and always feel the game plays better...or at least more fun for me, when I add your patches.

I may tweak them a little (to suit my own taste), but without your patches at all, the game would suffer [imho].

I suspect that the ardent purists still won't be satisfied by what you're proposing, Wesp. The respawning issue alone would probably be a deal-breaker for many people.

Personally, I like the majority of your changes, and I'd rather use the full patch than the BASIC version you're envisioning. But I'm guessing that each player who's dissatisfied with the patch has his own idea of where you've crossed the line, so unless the BASIC patch really is pared down to absolute bare essentials, people will probably still clamor for a bug-fix-only patch.

Would it be possible to include a list of files for each component in the readme, so the user could delete the files for components he doesn't want? That would allow for the patch to be customized to each player's taste, without a huge amount of extra work for you.

ellipsis jones wrote:The respawning issue alone would probably be a deal-breaker for many people.

Well, on the RPG Codex forum some people that were very critical to my patch changes didn't mind that issue being corrected .

But I'm guessing that each player who's dissatisfied with the patch has his own idea of where you've crossed the line

That's what I fear may happen but I guess offering them one version for free will quell the demand for unauthorized versions out of my patches a bit.

Would it be possible to include a list of files for each component in the readme, so the user could delete the files for components he doesn't want?

That won't be feasible because by deleting some files completely all the normal bug fixes would be gone as well. This is especially true for the dialogues and the levels themselves.

Personally, I'd rather a patch/mod stayed as close to the original game as possible. That is, no new quests or adjustments to the existing quests and their rewards.

My exceptions would be:

(1) Restoring lines of audio that are broken...like an NPC that doesn't access the Noss/Malk response in the game folder.

(2) That the Obfuscate ring be made available to the Malk or Noss, possibly when they reach Gary's Warren or get their Havens like the Tremere and the Thaumaturgy item; my reason is that the ring looked like a completely finished item that got left out for some reason (compared to the lockpicking and hacking occult items that look like scratch work).

(3) Certain models that were missing in the final product could replace others. Replace, not added. For example, one of the loitering models in the hospital lobby or street (that we still see elsewhere) could be replaced by a model that was left out. I heard of a female Sabbat model that was left out; she could replace one of the three doomed Sabbat who face the Sherriff early in the game, leaving the original game virtually intact save for a superficial change.

Or, for the heck of it, you can throw in a few more boy and girl Sabbat to raise the difficulty of the Hotel.

But you really can't please everyone so you're better off just doing what you feel is right. I know I can't program worth spit so modding is your baby. You can listen to the critics but I don't think you have to apologize for your work.

I think it's a nice collection of changes, and one that will help keep VP:TM alive in the way BG2 has been maintained by some of its most devoted and technically expert fans over the years. Kudos to you for wishing to take it this way.

Technically a "purist"

While I suppose that technically, I'm a purist, I still think it's a good idea on one single basis:

I don't *have* to do it.

If it works good for others, that's cool. If they like it, that's good. If they don't, they can just stop using it. Don't let anything get in the way of your creativity. You are a gift to the community. You don't have to answer to us.

Bat22 wrote: (2) That the Obfuscate ring be made available to the Malk or Noss, possibly when they reach Gary's Warren or get their Havens like the Tremere and the Thaumaturgy item; my reason is that the ring looked like a completely finished item that got left out for some reason (compared to the lockpicking and hacking occult items that look like scratch work).

You are right but in my opinion I should either leave all of them in or all of them out. But I will switch the lockpicking item with the passive durations item of Mr. Ox so that each special haven will have a occult item prolonging some disciplines in 3.6.

(3) Certain models that were missing in the final product could replace others. Replace, not added.

I never added new models, they always replaced old ones: Guard at Giovanni's, Dogs at Giovanni's, Sabbat Girl at Hallowbrook, Dancer at Confession, Scrubs at Hospital, Female Hunter at Society (okay that one was already in there, only not visible ever if you didn't break the Masquerade enough ).

Jhereg wrote:Don't let anything get in the way of your creativity. You are a gift to the community. You don't have to answer to us.

But I don't mind to if it's not too much work and more people would be happy. After all without community feedback there never would have been as many patches in the first place! As for 3.6 the basic version is already finished, I just don't know if I should remove the SWAT rifle which Dan restored in his first patch 0.1 already. What do you think? Technically it wasn't in the released game...

Wesp5 wrote:But I don't mind to if it's not too much work and more people would be happy. After all without community feedback there never would have been as many patches in the first place! As for 3.6 the basic version is already finished, I just don't know if I should remove the SWAT rifle which Dan restored in his first patch 0.1 already. What do you think? Technically it wasn't in the released game...

Your attitude to player input is excellent, and personally, I have no problem with keeping it in. But would it be possible to code it in such a fashion as to make it optional for the player? A compilation of changes, any of which could be accepted or rejected via a series of text messages? As opposed to fixes, which would be implemented without user interaction.

Regardless, just keep doing to the voodoo you do so well. Your decisions for what to tackle have been good thus far.

I think its a great idea - I love the bug fixes and gameplay changes (such as getting rid of illogical spawning and moving illogically placed weapons) made by your patches, the only things I am not to keen on with your patches are the changes to XP and where weapons can be bought, books are found etc. But these are not big issues really, and I think your basic version will help satisfy many peoples' desire for a patch that just fixes the bugs and doesn't change too many other things.

I'd just like to say, no matter what you choose to do, your patches have helped many players enjoy the game more than previously and I'm certain both the time and effort you have put into them, and the patches themselves, are greatly appreciated by the majority of the Bloodlines community (including myself).

fable wrote:But would it be possible to code it in such a fashion as to make it optional for the player? A compilation of changes, any of which could be accepted or rejected via a series of text messages?

I wouldn't know how to do this and as some of these concern the same files it wouldn't be easy in the first place.

I've deleted several posts--one, because it was a minor flame, off-topic, and a self-serving attempt to take over another modder's thread. The others were removed because they quoted and responded to it. The person who started this has received an infraction, and a warning.

Please let me know if this sort of thing happens again, by using the ! button to the upper right of a post. It sends out a notice to me to look into a matter.

And fair warning in general: this is Wesp's thread. Others have had their own threads to post about their mods, and I helped prevent modders interfering, there. But it's the height of hypocrisy to turn around, after having problems with this kind of behavior, and do it to in turn to somebody else. Further attempts to do so will result in a temporary ban.

Back on topic, it was suggested on RPG Codex to move the Ra blade into Andrei's lair as this is a weapon of a Sabbat cult in the WoD and it wouldn't be far from it's original place then. What do you think?

I'd still wonder why it's in the Hallowbrook and nobody's using it. If it belongs to Andrei, why doesn't he wield it? Is his warform that much more powerful? Does he view the blade only as an heirloom or a ceremonial item? There are probably ways to justify it.

Having it in the Fu Syndicate could make sense, too - perhaps they captured and experimented on its previous owner. Although you'd think that someone powerful enough to wield the Ra blade would be able to deal with the Fu team.

Either solution has its drawbacks, but I think both are preferable to finding it lying around upstairs in the hotel like a discarded pair of socks.

Wesp5 wrote:Back on topic, it was suggested on RPG Codex to move the Ra blade into Andrei's lair as this is a weapon of a Sabbat cult in the WoD and it wouldn't be far from it's original place then. What do you think?

I feel placing it in his lair would be disappointing as the blade is helpful in weeding out some of the Sabbat on the way to victory. Even though the blade was originally positioned in Hallowbrook, you received it on the first floor you entered, very soon after the first hallway, so you had it the rest of your quest. If anything, I would recommend returning it to it's original position.

The recent change to the Fu Syndicate (I felt) was a little oddly placed.