Bards
- Cheeseknife
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Bards
I don't see their appeal. You get a mediocre wizard, who really is never going to get into the realms of high-level spells, and certainly cannot act as a substitute for a regular wizard.
Sure, you can give them a sword and let them fight or whatever, but then he's just a weak fighter. They're never going to be the ones dealing out the serious damage, and they're quite weak, you've got to constantly watch out and protect him so he doesn't get smacked up too much.
Their bard songs... I've never experimented hugely with them, but is bonuses you get really worth having a party member out of the fight to provide the buff, when every other buff just keeps on trucking after the caster is done casting it?
Maybe I'm biased, or misinformed, and maybe this post will evoke heated response from hundreds of people with a secret and fierce loyalty to bards, but I just don't see why you'd want one, whether Haer'Dalis or as a protagonist.
Sure, you can give them a sword and let them fight or whatever, but then he's just a weak fighter. They're never going to be the ones dealing out the serious damage, and they're quite weak, you've got to constantly watch out and protect him so he doesn't get smacked up too much.
Their bard songs... I've never experimented hugely with them, but is bonuses you get really worth having a party member out of the fight to provide the buff, when every other buff just keeps on trucking after the caster is done casting it?
Maybe I'm biased, or misinformed, and maybe this post will evoke heated response from hundreds of people with a secret and fierce loyalty to bards, but I just don't see why you'd want one, whether Haer'Dalis or as a protagonist.
I agree completely with you, I've tried Bards and they just don't seem to work with my style of play. However, they do appear to work well for a lot of other players so I guess it just depends on how your party is constructed, and how you use them.
I too would be interested in how people choose to play them and why - maybe my next playthrough I might be tempted to give a bard another chance
I too would be interested in how people choose to play them and why - maybe my next playthrough I might be tempted to give a bard another chance
Hmm. I'd say that, if the game is possible to be finished solo, the doubts about "having a party member out of the fight" and such aren't really important, don't you think?... I usually get three "stable" NPC's, who are with me for good, and the other two are picked to add some ambiance to the game. They sometimes change, and sometimes they stay. Depends. I like to choose my party members in a way I imagine would be a suitable one: it's easy to imagine Mazzy would like journeys with Keldorn, and Edwin would gladly see Viconia around ... you get the picture
So, I pick bards for roleplaying reasons. I't natural, IMO, that when you have a party accomplishing great deeds, and earning much money , some bard would follow them, sooner or later. Write songs about the courageous female halfling, the noble, aging paladin, whose duty "does not end with his death", and about the epic fight of a beautiful bhaalspawn to find peace, stabilization, and love
But then again, I'm a hopeless roleplayer... :laugh:
So, I pick bards for roleplaying reasons. I't natural, IMO, that when you have a party accomplishing great deeds, and earning much money , some bard would follow them, sooner or later. Write songs about the courageous female halfling, the noble, aging paladin, whose duty "does not end with his death", and about the epic fight of a beautiful bhaalspawn to find peace, stabilization, and love
But then again, I'm a hopeless roleplayer... :laugh:
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Bards in general are a lot better in smaller parties, or even solo, where they play as a poor-man's Fighter/Mage.
Blades have some great abilities, and when you get HLA's are really amazing (UAI and WW). All Bards get to pick the Trap-related HLAs, which are all really good.
They have an AWESOME (IMO the best) stronghold. It's a lot of fun.
Blades have some great abilities, and when you get HLA's are really amazing (UAI and WW). All Bards get to pick the Trap-related HLAs, which are all really good.
They have an AWESOME (IMO the best) stronghold. It's a lot of fun.
"A life is not important, except in the impact it has on other lives."
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Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
-- Jackie Robinson
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
I like the idea of bards, but more so if you get to choose their skills yourself, even if it costs you more skill points. Bards came in pretty useful in IWD2, as their spells served me pretty well.
In BG2, you do have a point. I once played a bard and got to ToB. She was a Skald, I think. But it's a little lame keeping a character away from a fight just so they could sing. That's why they invented Lingering Song, but still... She had pretty high stats and I used her in melee combat, but in spite of her being equipped with all the armor-class-boosting items that could fit together, I've had a couple of situations of only her being killed... and then that ugly hand turns into dust again...
In BG2, you do have a point. I once played a bard and got to ToB. She was a Skald, I think. But it's a little lame keeping a character away from a fight just so they could sing. That's why they invented Lingering Song, but still... She had pretty high stats and I used her in melee combat, but in spite of her being equipped with all the armor-class-boosting items that could fit together, I've had a couple of situations of only her being killed... and then that ugly hand turns into dust again...
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- Crenshinibon
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Well, I'm a bard player and I do have to say that a bard can best a fighter in any. The only thing a mage has over the bard is the spells that are over level six. The bard does have an extended spell duration though. Sure, bards can't sneak or backstab, but they can still lay the HLA traps which can bring an end to any mage. Even with the loss of the high level spells, almost all of them can be read through scrolls with UAI. A fighter's GWW is not really an advantage as the bard can simulate almost the same thing with Improved Haste while at the same time using Defensive Stance. I have to say that a fighter type is no match for a bard (Blade rather) as that class is the ultimate tank. And that's even without exploiting the song bug. XD
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
- RPG Guy (sorta)
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When I played with Haer Dalis I couldn't get over his horrible saves and hit point count. He's a good dual-wielder but (holy hell!) buffing him so he could survive those tuff combat situations was a pain, especially in ToB.
By chapter 9, I was routinely keeping him in the back with his Improved Bard Song going, which rocks I have to admit. A little trap setting here and there, the occasional spell, but mostly I just got slightly lazy with him towards the end.
I doubt I'd play the class again unless as a solo effort for the challenge.
By chapter 9, I was routinely keeping him in the back with his Improved Bard Song going, which rocks I have to admit. A little trap setting here and there, the occasional spell, but mostly I just got slightly lazy with him towards the end.
I doubt I'd play the class again unless as a solo effort for the challenge.
- Crenshinibon
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I soloed a Blade before and it was no challenge at all. It was easier than soloing with a fighter or a monk.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
Only is completely buffed, and these run out.Crenshinibon wrote:Well, I'm a bard player and I do have to say that a bard can best a fighter in any.
Ummm, okay. Those are the best spells!Crenshinibon wrote:The only thing a mage has over the bard is the spells that are over level six.
"A life is not important, except in the impact it has on other lives."
-- Jackie Robinson
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
-- Jackie Robinson
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
- Crenshinibon
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Those run out in some forty rounds or more. It's unfair to compare the bard to a fighter unbuffed, just like it is unfair to compare an unarmed fighter to an unarmed mage. The loss of spells is nothing big as they can be cast through scrolls. The spells are long lasting and the fighter's supplies of Hardiness and Greater Whirlwinds would quickly come to an end while the bard would still in near tip top shape. Sure, the damage output wouldn't be as high but it would be fast, and that would add more damage.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
I love playing bards, but more for role playing reasons than anything else. Early in the game, bards are good because they gain levels faster than almost anybody, but the THACO of a fighter completely buries that of a bard. On the other hand, a properly buffed bard is really hard to damage.
On the same token, the mage can out-cast a bard any day of the week with the same amount of experience.
What you really should compare is the bard vs. the fighter/mage. In that case, the bard has an advantage earlier in the game, but in the long run, the fighter/mage can hit better and cast better than the bard, putting the power gamer advantage purely in the multi-class corner.
But HLA traps are really great to have if you don't have a high level thief (I usually don't).
On the same token, the mage can out-cast a bard any day of the week with the same amount of experience.
What you really should compare is the bard vs. the fighter/mage. In that case, the bard has an advantage earlier in the game, but in the long run, the fighter/mage can hit better and cast better than the bard, putting the power gamer advantage purely in the multi-class corner.
But HLA traps are really great to have if you don't have a high level thief (I usually don't).
- Crenshinibon
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A properly buffed bard can best any fighter and mages can be easily disposed off by drinking just one potion.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
- RPG Guy (sorta)
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- Crenshinibon
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I was referring to the Potion of Magic Blocking, but the potions of Magic Protection and Magic Shielding shouldn't be ignored either. I do realize that it says that the potion protects the user from spells of fifth level and lower but that's not true. It actually protects the user from all spells.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
What makes Bards (and especially Blades) so good is that they can combine many talents. You have to be a bit creative and thoughtful with spells though. A Bard buffed with all kind of defensive spells (mirror image, stoneskin, blur) can be a mean opponent. And if he gets hurt he can move away from the frontlines and be useful in other ways: Bard song, casting spells, using ranged weapons.
I remember my Blade being responsible for most of the kills, and that was with a party that included Keldorn.
Fighter/mages are powerful too though.
I remember my Blade being responsible for most of the kills, and that was with a party that included Keldorn.
Fighter/mages are powerful too though.
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- RPG Guy (sorta)
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Dude, I played the game twice and never saw or heard of the first one. The second two (if I recall correctly) only appear in ToB.Crenshinibon wrote:I was referring to the Potion of Magic Blocking, but the potions of Magic Protection and Magic Shielding shouldn't be ignored either.
And I doubt none of those will save your bard from the 12 planatars I sick on him.
But I won't argue with an expert.
- Crenshinibon
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Actually you can find them quite early in SoA. Check page three of the potions section for their locations.
Also, if we're doing this with bugs, I'm sure the bard would still win, using his/her own arsenal. No, the potions would protect from the spells alone. Summons are a different story. I'd prefer to discuss this without bugs because otherwise it comes down to who knows the most and the worst.
Also, if we're doing this with bugs, I'm sure the bard would still win, using his/her own arsenal. No, the potions would protect from the spells alone. Summons are a different story. I'd prefer to discuss this without bugs because otherwise it comes down to who knows the most and the worst.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
If you are powergaming, there are better alternatives than a Bard. For example, you can run a party with powerful specialized characters instead of a party that includes a "jack-of-all-trades-but-master-of-none".
On the other hand, if you are roleplaying and want to play a Bard, then there is literally no substitute. Bards are sort of like Druids to me in that respect. A powergamer might choose a Druid because of the availability of a few special skills or abilities that are not available to other classes, but the best reason for playing a Druid is that you want to play one. Same with Bards.
Mages, Fighters, and Thieves are a lot of fun to play, but when it comes to roleplaying, they are blank slates. Aside from their generalized skills, they don't give you a lot of cues about who they are or what sort of background they have. And chances are, when it comes to a game like this, most people don't think much about their characters' backgrounds, which is why the story provided by the designers (child of Bhaal raised by monks in fortified library) is not only sufficient but also compelling, and there's nothing more to add. But when you play a Bard (or a Druid), you can make many assumptions about his or her background based on what you know about the rich traditions of Bards (or Druids). So automatically, you are thinking about character traits and not just abilities. If his or her abilities do not satisfy you, or if you do not care much about character traits, then you are better off with a powergaming character.
I know I've said this a hundred times before, but I once played with a party of troubadours, and it was one of the best roleplaying experiences I've ever had. I was doing a lot more than thinking about ways to kill monsters and gain experience; I was thinking about WHY they did the things they did and how they fit in with the world around them. For example, why would a character participate in a guild war, above and beyond the player's need to progress to the next chapter in the game? I gave a great deal of thought to questions like that, and it made the game world come alive, despite the inherent shallowness and self-contradictory nature of the main plot. (I realized just how shallow and self-contradictory it is BECAUSE I thought about it instead of merely taking it for granted and saying, "Okay, whatever, where do I find some monsters and treasure?")
My party of troubadours was carefully constructed. I started with the idea of an all-bard party, but I also let the story inform my choices. For example, I had to include Imoen because she has a significant relationship with the main character. And there wasn't any reason why I couldn't hand her a tambourine. My characters also had a natural interest in the playhouse (and as a player, I had an interest in the stronghold quest), and it was only natural to include Haer'Dalis, whose script involves a subplot with Aerie, who also has a background as a performer from her days in the circus. So I had a party consisting of a two Blades, a Skald, a Jester, Imoen, and Aerie, which was pretty cool. The absence of a strong melee character early in the game proved to be very frustrating, especially before they all acquired Stoneskin. (When you have several spellcasters in your party, it's not easy to find enough spell scrolls for all of them.) Yes, I had to do a lot of micromanaging to keep them buffed and ready for battle. But it was a lot of fun to experiment with creative strategies and little-used abilities such as bard songs. It was one of my most memorable adventures.
On the other hand, if you are roleplaying and want to play a Bard, then there is literally no substitute. Bards are sort of like Druids to me in that respect. A powergamer might choose a Druid because of the availability of a few special skills or abilities that are not available to other classes, but the best reason for playing a Druid is that you want to play one. Same with Bards.
Mages, Fighters, and Thieves are a lot of fun to play, but when it comes to roleplaying, they are blank slates. Aside from their generalized skills, they don't give you a lot of cues about who they are or what sort of background they have. And chances are, when it comes to a game like this, most people don't think much about their characters' backgrounds, which is why the story provided by the designers (child of Bhaal raised by monks in fortified library) is not only sufficient but also compelling, and there's nothing more to add. But when you play a Bard (or a Druid), you can make many assumptions about his or her background based on what you know about the rich traditions of Bards (or Druids). So automatically, you are thinking about character traits and not just abilities. If his or her abilities do not satisfy you, or if you do not care much about character traits, then you are better off with a powergaming character.
I know I've said this a hundred times before, but I once played with a party of troubadours, and it was one of the best roleplaying experiences I've ever had. I was doing a lot more than thinking about ways to kill monsters and gain experience; I was thinking about WHY they did the things they did and how they fit in with the world around them. For example, why would a character participate in a guild war, above and beyond the player's need to progress to the next chapter in the game? I gave a great deal of thought to questions like that, and it made the game world come alive, despite the inherent shallowness and self-contradictory nature of the main plot. (I realized just how shallow and self-contradictory it is BECAUSE I thought about it instead of merely taking it for granted and saying, "Okay, whatever, where do I find some monsters and treasure?")
My party of troubadours was carefully constructed. I started with the idea of an all-bard party, but I also let the story inform my choices. For example, I had to include Imoen because she has a significant relationship with the main character. And there wasn't any reason why I couldn't hand her a tambourine. My characters also had a natural interest in the playhouse (and as a player, I had an interest in the stronghold quest), and it was only natural to include Haer'Dalis, whose script involves a subplot with Aerie, who also has a background as a performer from her days in the circus. So I had a party consisting of a two Blades, a Skald, a Jester, Imoen, and Aerie, which was pretty cool. The absence of a strong melee character early in the game proved to be very frustrating, especially before they all acquired Stoneskin. (When you have several spellcasters in your party, it's not easy to find enough spell scrolls for all of them.) Yes, I had to do a lot of micromanaging to keep them buffed and ready for battle. But it was a lot of fun to experiment with creative strategies and little-used abilities such as bard songs. It was one of my most memorable adventures.
- fable
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