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Okies I am certain this question has probably been asked before. I am new to this forum and im not to good at navigating these things. Plus I know it will probably add some interesting conversation considering all the differing perspectives on the world of VTM. That is unless there is truly a definitive answer. Of course it doesent matter since some of you might also have different opinions and interpretations.

Maybe I missed something playing the game. But id really like to know which Antediluvian you think was inside the Ankaran sarcophagus.

Anyone who follows the story's knows it couldn't have been Ravnos for example since he was in india during the week of nightmares. We also know that Tzimisce is underneath new york. I have heard players from the days of live action and table top argue over whether lasombra or tremere are even in fact still alive in the modern nights and whether there own clans hide the fact so they don't lose there standing.

There are many different theories and philosphies. I have heard one person claim that he believed Saulot was inside the Sarcophagus. (For those who dont know Saulot was the salubri Antediluvian who got devoured by tremere thereby making tremere a clan.) However there is storyline that suggests Saulot might somehow still exist somewhere.

Every famous vampire has an alias. So who is supposed to be in the box?=P

Its possible that there wasn't even an antidiluvian in the sarcophagos at all - it could have been a hoax right from the start, designed to cause chaos, or bring down the Camarilla, or any number of reasons. In my opinion this is the case with many things in the game such as the actual contents of the box before the bomb was planted, who planted the bomb, who was the real influence behind the events that took place... and so on. Of course there are plenty of theories about all of this, but the game never answers these questions in a way that one of these theories can be proven 100% and beyond all doubt - one of the things I love about the game

more questions than answers

we have discussed the back-story and interpreted the game in a number of threads - there are certain hard facts, but even though a number of us share our interpretation of those facts, we do not agree.

I would suggest that the majority of those who expressed an opinion thought that the box did NOT contain an antediluvian and was a set-up.
the exact mechanics of the set-up and who was involved is the subject of debate.
the leading contenders are Jack, Gary and Caine.

Jack appears to have been involved in the bomb-plot, Gary always knows more than he lets on and Caine...well, what is THAT all about?

the plot is involved and corners were cut to get it released - perhaps the developers hadn't even decided - it IS just a story.

most people see the game as independent of the PnP game and don't import 'evidence' from the PnP game/books. as with films, game developers don't always stick with the milieu.

Didn't we all see? -MAJOR SPOILER-

This post talks about the ENDGAME, so if you haven't finished the game yet, either being a loner or aligning with the Anarchs, DO NOT read this.



Didn't we all see Jack sitting with Messerah or however you spell his name? An Acient Assyrian? Of course he's a Vampire, maybe Assamite? Or even Setitte? From that Region, I'm really not sure. or maybe he's not an anti but a 4th or 5th acient vamp of some kind?
I kind of wonder about the ending... Who do you guys think the cabbie is? It looks as if he's after diablerizing Messerah or whatever, it's a scary ending, or maybe he's just out there to chill with Jack? But it sure doesn't look that way. What are you guys' opinions on this and what clan do you guys think Messerah is?

Thats what this threads about.

Well I opened this thread because I know that there didn't seem to be a definitive answer regarding who or what was in the Ankaran sarcophagus. I wanted to hear opinions and theories behind who was behind it and perhaps through the theories and through peoples knowledge behind what's speculation and whats fact in VTM we might figure out at the very least a good guess.

Besides it is always fun to try even if we come up empty handed. Sometimes the answer can also stare you in the face in white wolf lore whether by accident or purposely. In one of the stories I read for VTM there was a twist at the end some people didn't get. One of the characters who for all intensive purposes appeared not so old turned out at the end to be either an awakened Antediluvian checking on his clan or at the very least a methusulah. Remember what I said in the opening of this thread about vampires having aliases.

How many names did Ravnos have. I heard about five or six. It seems that some antediluvians have woken up at different times throughout history and have gotten back into vampire politics. One of them could have very well been a king at one point. The story does indicate the king that they think lives in the box was mortal and yet he lived a life longer then any mortal could. He might very well have been older then that. Just because they knew him by one name doesent mean he couldn't have been an ante or meth. May seem like a stretch but there seem to be facts that support this idea.

Outcast wrote:Well I opened this thread because I know that there didn't seem to be a definitive answer regarding who or what was in the Ankaran sarcophagus. I wanted to hear opinions and theories behind who was behind it and perhaps through the theories and through peoples knowledge behind what's speculation and whats fact in VTM we might figure out at the very least a good guess.

I think looking at the Solo or Anarch ending cutscenes and remembering the infos from Beckett and Johansen makes it clear that Tesserach was in the box and that he was just a normal human. More details of the plan will be audible in the next unofficial patch 3.6 where I restored an unused line of Jack after his usual "Hey, it happened just like you said. They never even knew what hit 'em." namely "Threw that sarcophagus out there and they just tore each other up tryin' to get to it." I think that was the plan by him and Cabbie.

Messerah

Spoilers-

Messerah can't be just a normal human. Johansen says that he would have to be 250 years old during his rule. And the Lamasu thing, and the drinking blood thing, he's definately a vampire. Of what sort we don't know. And we also don't know who the cabbie is.... Do you guys think that the CABBIE is the antideluvian? I mean, Beckett and Strauss do sense something powerful in the air.... So either one is very powerful. No word if they're one of the antis though .....

Lukeatus wrote:Spoilers-

Messerah can't be just a normal human. Johansen says that he would have to be 250 years old during his rule. And the Lamasu thing, and the drinking blood thing, he's definately a vampire. Of what sort we don't know. And we also don't know who the cabbie is.... Do you guys think that the CABBIE is the antideluvian? I mean, Beckett and Strauss do sense something powerful in the air.... So either one is very powerful. No word if they're one of the antis though .....

That was my view on the ending - the guy in the box was a vampire but not a antideluvian, that was something that was just rumoured in order to trick LaCroix into opening the box. Or possibly that the guy in the box was a ghoul (who is now long dead and mummified) and the blood he was drinking was in fact vampire blood. I also feel that the cabbie is a powerful vampire, possibly the one behind the whole thing and working with Jack and possibly Gary to cause chaos in LA and bring down LaCroix.

spolierish

if you watch the ending - you see Jack sitting there with a mummy. he makes the remark 'you don't talk much do you?' in the way that people joke about the dead. IMO he has taken the mummy from the sarcophagus and thinks it a laugh to have it sitting there 'watching' the destruction of the tower.

notice that the tower is still in the process of construction - remember the Biblical Tower of Babel ? LaX's tower is symbolic of his rule/ambition - it is not yet complete, so now is the time to destroy it.

I have watched the ending a few times and there is no suggestion that the mummy is animated. from what is said, the mummy King may well have been a ghoul - long life but not unending. it shows that the sarcophagus was not empty when it was discovered, but as you only see jack, the PC and the cabbie at the end - there is no confirmation that Gary is fully involved. Beckett is an enigma - he appears to know about the bomb and warns the PC not to open the box. the PC feels that Beckett is 'not quite himself' at the meeting in the street and that made me wonder if it was Ming playing games again.
Pisha also senses a massacre due to take place - what does she know?

there IS no antediluvian in the box - but who knows about the cabbie ? - there are suggestions that he is Caine and I do not know the background mythology well enough to speculate. the dialogue in the cab and his association with Jack make him crucial.

pandora's box.

If any of the ancients could hold it together and act with a reasonable mind when they awaken it would probably be caine. His aura if you ever look at it and his guidance toward the endings seem to indicate a vamp pulling the strings. What was sensed could have been him. Elder vampires were also known for being able to hide there power from the eyes of others. A person who could read auras might see what an elder wants them to so he could indeed remain hidden and enigmatic.

I do find it somewhat hard to believe that it was just a simple bomb in the box. Its elaborate story is leading up to the final nights where the antedeluvians awaken. I know its a game but with the way VTM stories go it seems odd if not improbable that theres not more behind the scenes at the end. Yes the Anarchs wanted there terf back. Yes that might be a way to get it by offing the prince knowing full well that while normally he would never dirty his own hands in a possible confrontation that he would choose to open the box himself to greet the ante in the hopes it would take his side in gratitude for waking it up.

But there was something sensed in the city a power that the elders noticed. It also seemed that the character you play as seemed to have the chosen one sydrome where he was destined for something.

I suppose the last point of reason. Your a vampire. If your one with auspex and could forsee danger. If the box did not contain a supernatural being that sent an explosive rage of flames at you. Why didn't you know? If it was a mere trap, a bomb surely you could have seen it coming. Jack wouldnt have made an assasination attempt at the prince that could be so easily foiled. Unless it was somehow supernatural in nature. At least thats my opinion.

So far I see a lot of valid points on both sides of this.

Identity of the Cabbie

Huge Spoiler ......

Guys, if you look at the directories of the game, and look for the conversation files.....

There's a directory named "Caine" .... Guess what? The speech of the Cabbie during the game is found... Hmmm... Hint?

Yes it is possible that the cabbie could be caine himself but if that is truly the case then the idea is even more in question.

The father of all vampires awakens. Goes to L.A an poses as a benign cab driver that gets you around the city when your job in the general area is done. He seems to decide when you've fullfilled whatever task was in mind for you and then wait for you to leave the area and move on elsewhere.

At the end he really seems to be the only one on your side laying out your options. Asking you where you want to go. If it was something as simple as blowing up lacroix with a bomb and was not pivitol to the final nights why would he bother. He's caine not a malkavian with a sock puppet. (yes my malky loved his sock puppets. They were his friends)

Lacroix would have to somehow be directly foiling his plans for caine to care about him. So if it was Caine as the cabbie and he was guiding you along. What was his real point and purpose?

Okay, I just made this account just to remind you all of something important in wether or not the cabbie is Caine himself.

The Prophet-lady, who speaks truely on everything she says, on Santa Monica Beach says:
Why is he smiling? The father? Is it the father behind him?

Think about it. Jack's laughing when LaCroix blows up. Hence the first sentence. Then the cabbie comes walking up behind him. The father. Caine, father of all vampires. Thats just my point of view.

Why Caine is involved in this? Who knows? Thats a part we dont get told, and in a way, I'm glad we dont. In the World of Darkness, not everything has to make complete sense.

Well....even though the game isn't considered canon to the PnP Vampire, Caine was in LA for a time shortly before Gehenna ( see the last Vampire novel ).
The sarcophagus on the other hand is a "McGuffin" as Alfred Hitchcock called a powerful or useful item around which the plot of a story evolves. The McGuffin doesn't have to be important but everyone in the story thinks it is, and so reacts accordingly ( a few classic examples: The One Ring in Lord of the Rings, the Ark of the Covenant in the Raiders of the lost Ark ).


MacGuffin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jack did a classic Con on everybody!

Opinion ***Possible Spoilers***

Lukeatus wrote:Spoilers-

Messerah can't be just a normal human. Johansen says that he would have to be 250 years old during his rule. And the Lamasu thing, and the drinking blood thing, he's definately a vampire. Of what sort we don't know. And we also don't know who the cabbie is.... Do you guys think that the CABBIE is the antideluvian? I mean, Beckett and Strauss do sense something powerful in the air.... So either one is very powerful. No word if they're one of the antis though .....

Not necessarily a vampire. Check Mercurio. If there's anybody lost in the seventies, it's him, but he sure doesn't look 60. He looks 30. So maybe ghouls lives are extended as well. That would explain the drinking blood, the prolonged life, and his death. He does have a corpse, after all. If he was a vampire who had been killed, he would have been ashes. So, if anything, I'd think he was some vampire's ghoul.

I also know what that something powerful that Beckett and Strauss sense is. It's you. Andrei says it himself - first that you're powerful, and when you finally kill him, he says you are much more powerful than at your last meeting.

Consider. You're embraced, and in a short time, you slaughter the Giovanni, the Society of Leopold, The Kuei-Jin, Andrei and all his creatures, the Sabbat, the Sherriff, a whole whack of Ventrue, and Lacriox himself.

At the end of the day, you leave only two groups in place. A leaderless Camarilla, and the Anarchs. Everybody else is done. Don't tell me that's the work of a newly embraced fledgling, unless that fledgling was truly powerful.

The reason why most people don't notice it's you is simply because you are a fledgling. By the time they would notice that what you were doing was far and away above what one would reasonably expect from a fledgling, it's too late. Lacriox is just thrilled with your success and is too preoccupied with his coffin to notice. By the time Beckett would notice that it's you, he's left. By the time Ming might have noticed it, you kill her. Nines is too young. Jack might know, but he's not talking. The cabbie certainly knows, but he, too, is not talking.

Again, the air is rife with 'why's and 'wherefore's, but at the sticking-point, that impending disaster in the air? It's you.

Jhereg wrote:Not necessarily a vampire. Check Mercurio. If there's anybody lost in the seventies, it's him, but he sure doesn't look 60. He looks 30. So maybe ghouls lives are extended as well. That would explain the drinking blood, the prolonged life, and his death. He does have a corpse, after all. If he was a vampire who had been killed, he would have been ashes. So, if anything, I'd think he was some vampire's ghoul.

I'd have to agree with you there. I've never played the PnP game but in Redemption there are ghouls from the middle ages who are still alive in the 20th/21st century. I think the mummified corpse is of a ghoul king and not a vampire. There is a powerful vampire, possibly Caine, in LA but its not in the box and never was. The whole sarcophagos thing was an elaborately planned trap designed to bring down LaCroix (and possibly even Ming in the process), but the reasons for such a thing needing to take place is unanswered. All I can assume is that for some reason, an elder vampire wanted him out of power (possibly because of his desire to diablarise and become extremely powerful?)

Well

So Messerach was a ghoul of Lamastu. Is she still around? The oldest female vampire in the game seems to be Pisha.

supernatural bomb?

I don't think that C4 is supernatural! the key idea is that LaX has the protection of the Sheriff and a very tough fortress/haven. to get a bomb in required that it would be beyond doubt that laX would be present when it is opened/triggered. what could excite LaX interest enough not to delegate? an Ante that could be diaberlised ! note that he spends half the dialogue telling the PC NOT to open the box - just in case he loses out. it is the one thing that LaX craves enough to let it affect his judgment.

the observation about the malk on the beach - makes sense - it could be figurative though - smiling Jack and the Father - a father behind jack both literally in her vision, or figuratively in purpose.

I don't know the milieu well enough to speculate why Caine would involve himself, but the bits of information during the loading screens say that the Sabbat and the Guai-jin (sp?) have surrounded the vamps of North America - if LaX's ambition leads to LA being taken by either group, then that is another domino that has fallen and the 2 uncontrolled factions gain in strength. for the status quo to be maintained - the anarchs holding an uneasy detente with the camarilla - LaX needs to be gone. wiping out andre and ming also may send a message to both organisations that the capes and the anarchs are deserving of respect and will not lay down easily.
in the words of the home guard "we are the boys who will make you think again"...

Pnp, i know it's probably not related

I was reading throught the Malkavian book in the Pnp vampire game when I came across a name of one of the 4th generation Malkavians. His name is Malcontent and he's donw right cookey. Malks like to play pranks (from lighting the pants you are wearing on fire to blowing up L.A cuz thats just hillarious). He has such a high dementia that the entire city he is in feels the affect (for a while the camarilla Malks had lost there crazies!!! they were normal until recently...). He loves big practical jokes. So I'm going to put myself in his shoes so bear with me. 1. wake up from a long slumber 2. drinking some blood ( a good deal of it) 3. really, really bored and people have seemed to forget about you 4. now your pissed that they don't remember your amazing pranks 5.you see that L.A is already got some problems 6.It's prank time!!!!

So from that you tell or dementia your old buddy the ocean going smilling jack to run a ship and plant some explosives in an old guys box and steal the body. Also get jack to grab you the key.

Then you realize that some jerks from the east are here too and want to stop your buzz so you add them into the mix. Give them the key and that will lead to there downfall.

Already his demention is making people all other L.A feel uneasy.

Hmmmm who should die first the Cammarila, the Sabbat or the Keui Jin.hey I KNOW HOW BOUT ALL OF THEM!!!!! So with little nudges in the right directions you push a fledgling to do your bidding.

Now even better you can take out the hunters and critacly injure the Anarchs.

If you were Malkavian this would all make sense to you,

peace out,
gonin

I was just thinking about this...

Outcast wrote: Maybe I missed something playing the game. But id really like to know which Antediluvian you think was inside the Ankaran sarcophagus.

I believe a cooperative, open forum approach could bring us the answers. True that.

mr_sir wrote:Its possible that there wasn't even an antidiluvian in the sarcophagos at all - it could have been a hoax right from the start, designed to cause chaos, or bring down the Camarilla, or any number of reasons. In my opinion this is the case with many things in the game such as the actual contents of the box before the bomb was planted, who planted the bomb, who was the real influence behind the events that took place... and so on.

This is, to use the term loosely - looking outside the box. And a very very strong indication to me throughout playing VTM.

Celacena wrote: I would suggest that the majority of those who expressed an opinion thought that the box did NOT contain an antediluvian and was a set-up.
the exact mechanics of the set-up and who was involved is the subject of debate.
the leading contenders are Jack, Gary and Caine.

So now others felt the same feeling playing this, too. But it is just as possible that...

Lukeatus wrote: Didn't we all see Jack sitting with Messerah or however you spell his name? An Acient Assyrian? Of course he's a Vampire, maybe Assamite? Or even Setitte? From that Region, I'm really not sure. or maybe he's not an anti but a 4th or 5th acient vamp of some kind?

But on the other hand, we should consider...

Celacena wrote: I have watched the ending a few times and there is no suggestion that the mummy is animated. from what is said, the mummy King may well have been a ghoul - long life but not unending.

So at this point, we are lead to believe that the life-less contents were removed ahead of time.

Wesp5 wrote:I think looking at the Solo or Anarch ending cutscenes and remembering the infos from Beckett and Johansen makes it clear that Tesserach was in the box and that he was just a normal human. More details of the plan will be audible in the next unofficial patch 3.6 where I restored an unused line of Jack after his usual "Hey, it happened just like you said. They never even knew what hit 'em." namely "Threw that sarcophagus out there and they just tore each other up tryin' to get to it." I think that was the plan by him and Cabbie.

And then I read...

mr_sir wrote:That was my view on the ending - the guy in the box was a vampire but not a antideluvian, that was something that was just rumoured in order to trick LaCroix into opening the box. Or possibly that the guy in the box was a ghoul (who is now long dead and mummified) and the blood he was drinking was in fact vampire blood.

So what is my role in this? And what of the strange power that was sensed?

Jhereg wrote: I also know what that something powerful that Beckett and Strauss sense is. It's you. Andrei says it himself - first that you're powerful, and when you finally kill him, he says you are much more powerful than at your last meeting.

Consider. You're embraced, and in a short time, you slaughter the Giovanni, the Society of Leopold, The Kuei-Jin, Andrei and all his creatures, the Sabbat, the Sherriff, a whole whack of Ventrue, and Lacriox himself.

So who did the game designers really mean for this infamous Cabbie to be, then?...

Lukeatus wrote:Huge Spoiler ......

Guys, if you look at the directories of the game, and look for the conversation files.....

There's a directory named "Caine" .... Guess what? The speech of the Cabbie during the game is found... Hmmm... Hint?

The destruction of the tower was obviously a strong metaphorical image. And this made the most sense...

Celacena wrote: notice that the tower is still in the process of construction - remember the Biblical Tower of Babel ? LaX's tower is symbolic of his rule/ambition - it is not yet complete, so now is the time to destroy it.

Very good use of imagery, and not the only one...

Paperbag Boy wrote: The Prophet-lady, who speaks truely on everything she says, on Santa Monica Beach says:
Why is he smiling? The father? Is it the father behind him?

Think about it. Jack's laughing when LaCroix blows up. Hence the first sentence. Then the cabbie comes walking up behind him. The father. Caine, father of all vampires.

That said...

Outcast wrote: Lacroix would have to somehow be directly foiling his plans for caine to care about him. So if it was Caine as the cabbie and he was guiding you along. What was his real point and purpose?

So what was Caine the Cabbie's motive? It was all about the Smile behind the smile. The order. The masquerade. LaCroix was ovbiously seeking deeper power that his delegations and diplomacy could not. This was mentioned with almost every encounter with each faction, namely the Anarchs (being so vocal about LaCroix and the Camarilla). LaCroix's motives for searching out the Sarcophagus was known to all and you (hopefully you, the player engrossed in the story) and this is not something that true elders would take lightly. This operation sent a message to all clans that perhaps attempting to usurp an elder's power will come to a horrific end. And using a fledling such as you, only compounds the power of Caine and the masquerade.