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I've played a little BG2 with Tob and nearly drove myself crazy with the bugs.
Have restarted a party about 20 times. I like perfection in a party. Since I did a good loot job with BG2 and since I was running the balderdash patches for bg2, have uninstalled BG2 completely, and am creatigna new party.

My previous experience has been with Keldorn, aerie, jaheira, mazzy and imoen (after yoshino)
After exploring the dialog with the cntrl-i trick, I have a hard time deciding between keldorn and viconia. from what I've read, viconia has the ability to turn paladins, so exploding or mind messing keldorn in the middle of a firefight is not an option. since I plan to summon all the gear I legitamately looted in bg2, strength is not a big issue. Also since I tend to run very heavy magic partys in BG2, and play a power house sorceror myself, relative combat issues are not that big a deal.

I've also never liked keldorns atitude in bg2, and savarok and all 3 clerics can serve as tanks. I've always considered a magically enhanced tank as better than a staight warrior, and with the exception of keldorn with holy avenger, have had very few pure fighters. mazzy always was a sniper first.

My question is this....how badly will I miss holy avenger? I mean for general dragon killing and other assorted nastyness against demonic and undead bashing, can viccy give me as much of an edge as holy avenger?

Is her ability to turn into allies most of a room of undead on your side as good as keldorn with holy avenger's aility to bash major monsters? I've always faught my battles with massive magical firepower, and whenever it gets dicey send in summons in enough numbers to totally overwhelm the opposition. I figure planers are even better for the type of battle I like to run, and figure one planer with globe of blades on can take care of a room full of major demons in a few seconds. So has anyone in a mostly good aligned party travelled without a paladin?

And with a str belt, is viconia vunerable to chaos or domination spells? thats my major issue with savorok, he's too damned vulnerable to the enchantment series. But with amulet of spell warding I've seen him last 3-5 seconds against a globe of blades in close proximity, so I suspect he's unstoppable with chaotic commands or psi blade/

So can you run tob without a paladin tank, and how necessary is holy avenger in a ****ed and loaded magic based party?

Savorok feels really depressed, because all he gets to play with is the vorpal blade, and greater whirlwinds, where as viccy can cast multiple storms of vengence.

no, anomen is simply not an option. I can't stand him at all. totally unacceptable butthead.

I guess the answer depends on what alignment your party is overall. If you have a very neutral or even Evil party, then Keldorn doesn't fit in very well.

OTOH, it sounds like you have enough clerical support, so purely in terms of usefulness, I would go with Keldorn. It is not just the holy avenger either, but rather this:

Inquisitor abilities and immunities are good *all* of the time (enemy spell casters are very common). Viconia is 'Mistress of the Dark/Dead' but that is just not quite as common. OTOH, Vic does have a great Dex and Keldorn doesn't so both will need an item to help them (Vic for her poor str and Keldorn for his Dex).

I hope this helps.

-Polaris

I'd say....drop Keldorn and get Vic. She's the best cleric in the game. I don't find the turn undead for evil characters very useful, but i think you'll not miss the holy avenger much. There are other great weapons in the game...give sarevok the 2h sword that loot from one of the Demon knight in the underdark (-2 THACO each hit)...it's a +4 weapon..i really love it!!!!!!
Keldorn withg gauntlets of dex and holy avenger is a great killer, but i don't think he will fit in your playing style....
And i totally agree on Anomen...

yeah it does. inquisitor kits are cool, but lilacor will provide the same ability for savorok, with grand mastery in 2handed swords. Abolutely the best part of having a paladin is the 50% magic resistance provided by holy avenger. However, my main character is a sorceroress and I've been victor in hundreds of mage battles and one on one duals with dragons and liches. Typically keldorn is off to the side because I don't want to risk him in a major nasty rumble unless my sorc gets into deep doo-doo.
ANyway if you're a major magic user char, the best defense against hold and charm spells are mass invisibility. Keep casting it, if its taken down by true sight, most major nastys will have only a few memorized. This will also protect you aginst domination and save-or-die spells.
[url="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bwscript/files/DOCUMENTS/BGII%20Spells%20Reference/2-3%20-%20Wizard%20Spells.htm"]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bwscript/files/DOCUMENTS/BGII%20Spells%20Reference/2-3%20-%20Wizard%20Spells.htm[/url]

This is the best and most informative guide for players who want to run a magic weighted party, and One of the best pointers is this. Excepting area effect spells, the best way to protect youself aginst any spell caster is to be invisible. unless the ai script is designed for area effect damage, the lich can't cast domination or disintegrate spells at you, thus I think the native ability of keldorn to be invulnerable to those spells is not a major issue. The really nice thing about keldorn is that obscene 60% magic resistance. Holy avenger and the amulet of 10%magic resistance makes him by far the only character to survive a brush with mind flayers and be able to dispel the effects on the rest of the party. Savorok can use the psion blade, but will killing th mind flayer dispell the efects?


Question is just how much can you buff viccy to give her magic resistance?

ANd I know in the watchers keep and tword the end you'll need major fighter types to do physical bashing against ridiculously magic resistant bosses. what I'm wondering about is has anyone done without holy avenger and multiple greater whirlwinds.

and just how buffed up can you take viccy?

I think you've figured out I've pretty much decided to drop keldorn this time around. TOB has enough weapondry and enhancements so that holy avenger is not such a trump card anymore. besides, I kinda like the idea of using the concurrent romance patch for TOB to have my sorceress hang with all three girls.


Spoiler:
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DOes anyone know what happens when you have the concurrent romance patch and you choose the mortal ending, does the game frash or do you get the movies for all three girls?

Keldorn + Gauntlets of DEX + Carsomyr, in True sight mode with PFE is really THE ultimate mage/demon/lich/dragon killer...
I'll even miss him when I play my "evil" party !!
Sometimes things are *much* more difficult without him (errr, killing Kangaxx for example).
But yes, Viconia rocks and she's so *cute*

I've found that Holy Avenger is not the uber-weapon in TOB that it was in SOA...I guess the mages that you're fighting are just so powerful that the "dispel effects" doesn't work like it used to. And there are SO many +5 weapons everywhere, you know? Keldorn's other abilities, like the true sight and the super-dispel, and the GREAT saving throws, certainly are still useful, however. I have even had him put down the Avenger (!) and fight with the Impaler or pick up a shield and use the Answerer (or whatever other uber-weapon - fill in the blank).

Of course, Viconia can duplicate several of these abilities of Keldorn's, and it sounds like she would fit your playing style, since she can cast a LOT of spells.

As far as Vicky's turn undead ability, I personally find it quite gratifying to watch as the minor enemy undead turn on their masters and help me instead....Ha Ha!

I have had great success with Viccy. She is a DROW and has 50% basic MR in her undercloths, so if you are just looking at MR, Keldorn doesn't have much on her. As I recall, she also retains the 90% elven resistance against charm as well.

As for buffing Viccy, you can do an impressive job. In terms of straight AC, she can have one of the lowest (if not THE lowest) AC in the game (increase her Dex from 19 to 20 in WK). The only thing that keeps her from being as good a 'tank' as say Anomen is her patheticly low hit points (because of her low CON). If you can get around that (and I have) then she is a great character...and probably more in line with what you want for this party.

-Polaris

P.S. I have no idea what happens if you choose mortality with the multiple romance patch. Anyone?

@UserUnfriendly: Sure Keldorn is great - I usually have him in my good-aligned parties even if my PC is a paladin - but he is not necessary for ToB. Just take whomever fits your current party and playing style.

There are plenty of good weapons in the game besides Carsomyr, especially in ToB.

Viconia is also fun to have along for *recruiting* undead helpers - especially when she's at a high enough level to turn liches. If you're worried about her being charmed/dominated, equip her with the Shield of Harmony.

Thanks about the info on drow resistance I forgot completely about drow native resistance to magic.
Me stupid.
This gives me a nasty major spellcaster capable of dispel magic when half my party is dominated, and since I pickpocketed ribald in bg2 I feel fine about giving her one of the rings of regen. savorok gets later the ioun stone that regens almost as fast as the ring of gax,

this also fixes another issue about the multiple rings.

I got 2 rings of wizardry, ring of acuity and ring of holiness. I'll give aerie the mage enhancers, viccy the ring of holiness, and get the oaken ring for jaheira later.

anyway I'd rather have innate resistance to magic over weapon provided resistnace to magic anyday. what if you want to use a ling to interupt a human spell caster and the bugger fires a fast spell like mgic missiles at you?

As for having only one tank...saverok, just not true. aerie at high levels has a nasty bunch of spell triggered cleric spells and mage provided enhancers to buff her up. and jaheria at high level, I was giving her all the quest spells, but now plan to give her at leaast one greater whirlwind. that, and the spear of withering or the spike spear later will do a lot of nastyness later.

also I beleive spectral brand is a schimitar, so she can wield it. finally a +5 sword and slot for shield for jaheira!!!

When Keldorn casts Dispel it works at twice his level, does anyone know what level the dispel hit or the dispel functionality of the holy avenger works at, and for that matter what level the dispel function of the purifier works at.

I don't remember what Purifier casts at, but Casomyr casts Dispell Magic at 15th level. In ToB, just use the Inquisitor's innate Dispell magic....it is a *lot* better.

-Polaris

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly:
<STRONG>anyway I'd rather have innate resistance to magic over weapon provided resistnace to magic anyday. what if you want to use a ling to interupt a human spell caster and the bugger fires a fast spell like mgic missiles at you?</STRONG>

*** Cheese Alert ***

Hit the spacebar and switch weapons.

Wait a second! Does Viconia have more spells than any other pure Cleric with Wis 18? Is she for the Clerics like Edwin for Mages (more spells for all levels)?

In fact I think her MR is what make the diference beetween the others. But Anomem is better fighter, and Aerie is half mage. I don't know to much of them because them three are so annoying that I never play clerics in my groups.

Viconias greatest ability IMO is the ease at which she can acheive 100% magic resistance.
Base = 65%
Human skin armor = 20%
Amulet = 10%
Marduks blue sheild (cant remember the proper name) = 5%

TOTAL = 100%

Once she has this you can just use her as a sheild to absorb all mage spells. Just be careful of summons.
Keldorn is still the most powerful NPC overall though.

Shield of the Lost, I think!

problem is, I'll be running the concurrent romance patch, and soon she won't be able to wear the human skin armor, So I don't plan on bring it in. Just can't stand the thought of it, not after seeing silence of the lambs....
Ick.

anyway, like I said, for my style of play viccy will be better, and the ultimate magic immune fighter is a bout 20 skeleton warriors.

or 12 solars.

I disagree that Keldorn is the strongest NPC.
Korgan is definitly the best fighter NPC.
Dual weilding axes Rule!!

Korgan is by far the strongest in soa, but saaverok out does him in the stats.

Also its important to note Korgan does have the berserk capability, allowing him to be immune to demi liches, savarok has that death bringer assault, whatever it is, and while tob has a killer axe and throwing axe, the best weapons in Tob are halberd and t-h sword, including gram and lets not forget the psion blade, highly useful, and the ravager, which does vorpan and poison together.

Anyway my next party second time thru tob will have korgan, he can not only use the second best meele weapon in tob, the vorpal axe, he can use crom feyr and the best projectiel weapons in the game
Azureedge.
In fact, I'm thinking of investing a couple of points for savarok in axe..

my main protagonist will carry staff of ram and magi, aerie crom feyr and shield of balduran, viccy runehammer and harmony shield, jaheira ixl spike, and immoen that sword that does fier damage and increases str/I want everyone to have some sort of str enhancer, and since my grup is mage heavy, everyone will be able to tensor transform and draw on holy might.

I do admit, korgan would be very handy, and he's funny with imoen and the pc. however unless I give up my only thief, I have to drop one of the girls or savarok to do that.

I consider saverok to be korgan's equal at least, though dual weild vorpal axe and crom feyr are mighty tempting, I am mighty impressed by his skill with the solver sword.

The three girls perform an integral magical arsenal, with all clerical phases covered. In my opinion clerics make excellent tank/killing machines, with blade barrior/aura of flaming death/globe of blades.