GameBanshee Forums

Paladin Cha modifier: Adds Charisma modifier to all saving throws

If the cha modifier is negative...do paladins add it to their saving throws...? if they do, this doesn't seem to be much of an advantage...? Im trying to make a multiclass high-wis low-cha human cleric(x)/paladin(1, maybe 2)/monk(1). thats why i asked.

(Of course, I can find out myself..but im kinda lazy? i hope someone has a quick answer for me.)



plus, i dont really understand the paladin and monk order thingy.

Monk of the Old Order
Members of the Old Order do not worship any particular deity, but are fond of philosophical debates and introspection.
Special Order Ability: Can multiclass to rogue without losing the ability to advance in the monk class.

What does the above mean? I have many points of confusion here.

Does it mean that I can ONLY multiclass Monk of Old Order to a Rogue in order to avoid the penalty to stop levelling in the monk class? If I multiclass to any class OTHER than the rogue, I wont be able to level the monk class anymore. Correct?

Since im planning a Cleric(x)/Pal(1)/Monk(1). The orders to which paladin and monk belong do not matter, correct? Since Im only planning on having one level of pal and one level of monk.

agc28 wrote:If the cha modifier is negative...do paladins add it to their saving throws...? .

AFAIK Paladins don't receive a malus on their saving throws for a negative Char modifier - but neither do they get a bonus. The question is: what's the point of adding 1 level of Pally if it isn't for the saving throws?

agc28 wrote:If I multiclass to any class OTHER than the rogue, I wont be able to level the monk class anymore. Correct?

Correct!

agc28 wrote:Since im planning a Cleric(x)/Pal(1)/Monk(1). The orders to which paladin and monk belong do not matter, correct? Since Im only planning on having one level of pal and one level of monk.

Correct. Just make sure the alignment is lawful good.You can start as a monk1 then go M1/Pala1 and then M1/Pala1/ CL X. If you make the Cleric a Painbearer you could later add 1 more level of Paladin ( of Ilmater) but adding more then 1 non-caster level will often cause the caster to lose 1 spell level.

A Paladin with a low Charisma (let alone one with negative modifiers) doesn't make sense to me. Since Charisma is the Paladin's primary attribute, many of the Paladin's special features hinge upon having an above average score. This includes turning, lay on hands, and smite evil in addition to divine grace. Only spells are modified by Wisdom, and having a Cleric as one of the classes seems to reduce the importance of the Paladin's utility with spells. Since spells would be the only non-penalized ability, which is covered better with the cleric, why not pick a straight fighter? If you're having the Paladin just to eventually get the holy sword, I would wonder if the overall effectiveness would not be better with a Paladin with more appropriate stats to really get a better use out of the special abilities of the holy sword. Having a negative modifier might be calculated into the saving throws, but I'd imagine it wouldn't. The intent of the effect is to improve the Paladin, and low scores would nullify the boon and make it a wasted option.

You are correct about the Monk and Paladin. There are other orders, each with different classes that are permissable, but it wouldn't matter if you started as a Monk and Paladin and only took 1 level. However, for the first class you pick, you need make sure the next class allows the previous class to get it, and no Monk or Paladin order allows the other class. For example: None of the Monk or Paladin orders allow either class option, so you have to choose which Monk or Paladin, but you shouldn't be able to play both a "Monk" and a "Paladin."

What will also happen is that with three classes, you'll eventually create an experience point penalty. If you're playing a high powered game and intend to play HOF, this won't be much of a deal. Otherwise, I wouldn't think either the Monk or Paladin (especially with a low Charisma) offers enough benefits at first level to make an experience point penalty worth it for me. If only getting a single class, I'd pick Rogue (which gets the most skill points at first level), or Fighter (an extra feat) depending on what the racial favorite class was.

Since your current combination shouldn't be possible to have Cleric/Paladin/Monk due to the Order restrictions, I'd suggest Monk based on the low Charisma, but I'd recommend ditching both Paladin and Monk for Rogue or Fighter.

senex wrote:<snip>
Correct. Just make sure the alignment is lawful good.You can start as a monk1 then go M1/Pala1 and then M1/Pala1/ CL X. If you make the Cleric a Painbearer you could later add 1 more level of Paladin ( of Ilmater) but adding more then 1 non-caster level will often cause the caster to lose 1 spell level.

I have not tried this. Just from what I read, it suggests that none of the Monk orders allow Paladin, and none of the Paladin orders allow Monk, but since being a Cleric "Painbearer," that would limit the options to the Monk Order of the Broken Ones if it also includes Paladins of Illmater. Either way, unless senex has done so and can testify to it, you'll know as soon as you advance to the next level and try selecting the next class. Only classes that are still eligible will be among those you can pick, and you would need to be Lawful Good as mentioned.

Lazigothi wrote:A Paladin with a low Charisma (let alone one with negative modifiers) doesn't make sense to me. Since Charisma is the Paladin's primary attribute, many of the Paladin's special features hinge upon having an above average score. This includes turning, lay on hands, and smite evil in addition to divine grace. Only spells are modified by Wisdom, and having a Cleric as one of the classes seems to reduce the importance of the Paladin's utility with spells. Since spells would be the only non-penalized ability, which is covered better with the cleric, why not pick a straight fighter? If you're having the Paladin just to eventually get the holy sword, I would wonder if the overall effectiveness would not be better with a Paladin with more appropriate stats to really get a better use out of the special abilities of the holy sword. Having a negative modifier might be calculated into the saving throws, and I'd imagine it wouldn't. The intent of the effect is to improve the Paladin, and low scores would nullify the boon and make it a wasted option.

Sometimes, when Powergaming, one will add a Paladin level or two just for the items he can use (some great ones), the quest reward bonuses (extra stat points always help) and the immunity to fear (at level 2).

BTW, one of my powergamed characters has a CHA of 1 and 3 levels of Paladin. He doesn't get any negatives to Saving Throws.

If you add 1 level of Rogue (much, much later in the game) to the Monk1/Cleric X you'll have a very good decoy character.

Klorox wrote:Sometimes, when Powergaming, one will add a Paladin level or two just for the items he can use (some great ones), the quest reward bonuses (extra stat points always help) and the immunity to fear (at level 2).

BTW, one of my powergamed characters has a CHA of 1 and 3 levels of Paladin. He doesn't get any negatives to Saving Throws.

If you add 1 level of Rogue (much, much later in the game) to the Monk1/Cleric X you'll have a very good decoy character.

Granted. If the intent is to powergame, meet bare minimum to use items, etc., then I could see it. If that's the case, I'd still wonder about the Paladin and Monk and Cleric combo.

agc28: What is your intent with this character?

I have not tried this. Just from what I read, it suggests that none of the Monk orders allow Paladin, and none of the Paladin orders allow Monk, but since being a Cleric "Painbearer," that would limit the options to the Monk Order of the Broken Ones if it also includes Paladins of Illmater. Either way, unless senex has done so and can testify to it, you'll know as soon as you advance to the next level and try selecting the next class. Only classes that are still eligible will be among those you can pick, and you would need to be Lawful Good as mentioned.

Actually the order of the Monk doesn't matter at all ( as long as it allows the Char to start with lawful good alignment.) Provided that there are no alignment restrictions, you can always start a Monk ( or Paladin) and then multiclass with any class you like or start with any class you like and later continue as Monk ( Paladin). That's why Monk1/ Druid or Pal2/ Sorcerer is very well possible in IWD2. The only restriction is that once you have multiclassed the Monk (Paladin) with a non-fav. class, you won't be able to add any more levels of Monk (Paladin)

why must you start with a paladin and multiclass to a cleric? Why can't you do it the other way around? (If I only want one level in the paladin class, that is)

I have a sorceress right now at level 13 and I just tried levelling her. I was able to multiclass to both monk and paladin. So I imagine i can do the same to a cleric.

"A Paladin/Monk who multiclasses to a class other than Paladin/Monk or their order's favoured class will never be allowed to advance in the Paladin/Monk class again"

The restrictions do not apply to the first level in the Paladin/Monk class. This means that (for example) your Sorceror could level up as a Paladin (as long as he/she is Lawful Good) because for the first level there are no restrictions. They could then level up as a Paladin freely, but if they then take another level in Sorceror (or a third class that isn't the Paladin's favoured class) the Paladin class would become unavailable to them.

So you need to take the Paladin levels all at once, because after taking the first Paladin level, after you multiclass to another class you won't be able to level up as a Paladin any more. They don't need to be taken at the start though, they can be taken at any point.

Also, this means your Monk (1)/Paladin (1)/Cleric (X) should be possible, as I understand it.