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Coming up with a good PC for my line-up [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn-9/tweak-my-party-94230.html"]here[/url] I'm firm on my decision to be a thief; or at least part-thief.

I've used Search here and there are many threads on thieves and their abilities. However, as it turns out, I'm not as smart as I thought I was and I'm unable to compress all that information and extract the solution.

I'm sure you guys can provide me with a few kit/class options that are better than what I've come up with. I'd rather not mess with installing kit or class mods.

However--I'm thinking about installing rogue rebalancing and song & silence.

Q: Do you guys recommend using one or both?


My ideal PC

A. Access to all thieving abilities. I want to pick pockets at leisure, disable traps/locks, set traps for nasties, and backstab when I'm feeling particularly friendly. I'm not looking to be perfect in them all, but at least a cut above the rest where it matters most.

B. Able to stand toe-to-toe with at least two enemies. It's going to happen--the laws of chance say I'll get caught trying to sneak around. I'd like to be able to take out a couple nasties without having to reload or run back to the party.

C. Maximum tweak--don't worry about rp or realism. No SK though. Any kit/class combo, along with attribute/skill allocation recommendations. But no shadowkeeper nonsense.



Any help appreciated.

Chaos Jinni

A Fighter/Thief would probably be perfect for you if you want to be able to "stand toe to toe with at least two enemies" and have "access to all thieving abilities". Some of the kits are crippled when it comes to thieving points (especially the Assassin kit) which makes it difficult to put sufficient points into all of the skills. With the equipment options and THAC0 of a Fighter and the backstabbing skill of a Thief, you'll be murdering your opponents right and left.

If you haven't installed Throne of Bhaal, then a dual-classed character is probably the best choice. You might consider choosing the Kensai kit and dualling to a Thief, but you'll have equipment limitations that offset the combat bonuses. If you have installed Throne of Bhaal, then a multi-class character is probably the best choice because you can get the High Level Abilities from both pools.

The stat requirements are pretty straightforward and easy to roll. If you plan to dual-class your character, you must play a human:

Strength: 18/xx (only a warrior class can get the exceptional Strength bonus, unless you play a Half-Orc)
Dexterity: 18 (other races can have up to 19)
Constitution: 18 (maximum Hit Point bonus)
Intelligence: 9 or higher (so you can use wands and scrolls)
Wisdom: no minimum requirement
Charisma: no minimum requirement

If you play a multi-class Fighter/Thief, a Half-Orc would be a good choice:

Strength: 19
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 19 (you can increase it to 20 which allows regeneration of Hit Points)
Intelligence: 9 or higher (so you can use wands and scrolls)
Wisdom: no minimum requirement
Charisma: no minimum requirement

By the way, I noticed in your other message thread that you don't want to bother with spells. Hopefully other people will take notice of that and not suggest a Fighter/Mage/Thief build.

I'd suggest a Dwarf Fighter/Thief played in BG1 first.

Dwarves have incredible Saving Throws
They'll regenerate when they get a 20 CON
Their DEX will get pumped to 18 in BG1
A 19 STR is great for backstabbin'!

And most of all: They're so freakin' cool!!!

Klorox wrote:I'd suggest a Dwarf Fighter/Thief played in BG1 first.

Are you suggesting that because of the availability of the stat-enhancing tomes, or is there another reason?

I just rolled up a Half-Orc Fighter/Thief and a Dwarf Fighter/Thief in BG2 to compare them side-by-side:

- Half-Orcs can have a maximum Dexterity of 18 compared to a maximum Dexterity of 17 for a Dwarf. This gives a Dwarf a -1 Armor Class disadvantage. However, even with Dexterity 18 (the maximum for a Half-Orc), a Half-Orc starts out with 10 fewer thieving points (total) than a Dwarf with Dexterity 17 (the maximum for a Dwarf) due to racial modifiers.

- Half-Orcs can have a maximum Strength of 19 compared to a maximum Strength of 18/xx for a Dwarf. You can raise a Dwarf's Strength to 19 with the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength, but a Half-Orc has the advantage of being able to wear a different belt with other benefits and still have the same Strength.

- Half-Orcs can have a maximum Charisma of 18 compared to a maximum Charisma of 16 for a Dwarf. This might be a moot point if you steal equipment from stores instead of paying for it. There are a couple of dialogue checks that result in benefits for a character who has Charisma 17 (one of them only applies to a female character), but Charisma 16 is sufficient in most cases. Besides, you can have Keldorn do the talking if necessary (he has Charisma 18, and he is in chaosjinni's party).

- Dwarves have a natural resistance to poison and magic. As implemented in the game, this takes the form of a +5 saving throw bonus against Paralyzation/Poison/Death, Rod/Staff/Wand, and Spells.

Those are the only significant differences I can see. A Dwarf Fighter/Thief is better than I thought. It just goes to show that stats aren't everything.

+5 to saves Vs. Spells is extremely helpful. It is better IMO than any advantage an extra point in DEX or STR grants.

If you need to start with an 18 DEX, try a Gnome or even Halfling F/T.

I really can't stress how many times that saving throw bonus will save your hide though.

BTW, if I'm playing BG2 only, I'd suggest a Halfling. It's easy to get STR enhancing stuff in BG2, and the -1 to DEX in Hell is easily overcome when you start with a 19.

chaosjinni wrote:Gentlemen,

I didn't know you could use an NPC to do the talking. If what you say is true, Von, then I can
scrap my charisma score and just have Keldorn smooth talk everyone. Yes?

Q What other effects are generated by having an NPC in the lead all the time?

If you have Keldorn as the lead for your party, all Charisma checks will be against his CHA score. There's little to no other effects, as far as I remember...when you initiate dialogue, you might be answering as Keldorn, but the dialogue is all the same (I think).

Both the half-orc and dwarf will suit your needs...the amount of magic and the obscenely low ACs you'll end up getting anyways probably gives the advantage to the dwarf.

I agree with all that a F/T is probably best, either duel or multi (multi if you want fighter HLAs in Throne of Bhaal, duel if you want to play more of a straight rogue).

In some cases, the game will not allow any party member besides the main character to address an NPC; the NPC will ask to speak to the main character.

Occasionally, the game will check the Charisma of the main character (rather than an NPC who is "doing the talking" for your party). The best example I can think of is Edwin's reaction if you announce that you want to fight a dragon. He will not follow you into battle if your main character's Charisma is less than 9. You might as well put 3 points into Wisdom (it's a useless stat) and put 16 points into Charisma. It's easy to roll a character who has enough points for that:

19
18
19
9
3
16
---
84


I just rolled up a Halfling Fighter/Thief:

- Like a Dwarf, a Halfling also gets a +5 saving throw bonus against Paralyzation/Poison/Death, Rod/Staff/Wand, and Spells.

- A Halfling can have a maximum Dexterity of 19, and a Halfling Thief has excellent racial bonuses. A Halfling with Dexterity 19 starts with 65 more thieving points than a Dwarf with Dexterity 17 (the maximum for a Dwarf) and 75 more thieving points than a Half-Orc with Dexterity 18 (the maximum for a Half-Orc), which is like being 2-3 levels ahead. The Armor Class bonus for Dexterity 19 is the same as the Armor Class bonus for Dexterity 18.

- A Halfling can have a maximum Strength of 17.

- A Halfling can have a maximum Constitution of 18.


I also rolled up a Gnome Fighter/Thief. A Gnome can have a maximum Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution of 18 (or 18/xx). A Gnome with Dexterity 18 (the maximum for a Gnome) starts with 35 fewer thieving points than a Halfling with Dexterity 19 (the maximum for a Halfling). A Gnome is naturally resistant to magic but not poison, so a Gnome gets a +5 bonus to saves against Rod/Staff/Wand and Spells but not against Paralyzation/Poison/Death.

Assuming that a Gnome, Halfling, or Dwarf would be wearing a Girdle of Hill Giant Strength (giving all of them Strength 19), I don't see any advantage in playing a Gnome Fighter/Thief (besides the fact that a Gnome can romance Aerie, which is a roleplaying issue). If a Dwarf is superior to a Half-Orc, then that leaves a comparison between a Halfling and a Dwarf, who have the same saving throw bonuses.

The main advantage in playing a Halfling is the exceptional number of thieving points. A Halfling with Dexterity 19 also has a +1 Armor Class advantage over a Dwarf with Dexterity 17. Assuming that Strength is equalized by the use of a Girdle of Hill Giant Strength, the only advantage a Dwarf has over a Halfling is Constitution 19 (versus Constitution 18), which results in 10 extra Hit Points at 10th level and the possibility of acquiring regeneration by increasing his Constitution to 20. However, I don't think the regeneration ability is all that helpful--it mainly comes into play when your character rests for the day. You can get the same benefit by having someone like Jaheira or Anomen (both of whom are in chaosjinni's party) cast healing spells on rest and choosing the option "Rest Until Healed", which will heal the entire party, or by having your character wear a Ring of Regeneration, the Ring of Gaxx, or any other item that gives your character regeneration.

Here is the summary:

Halfling

19 DEX vs. 17 DEX (no loss in AC and a minimal loss of thieving points if it is reduced to 18)
+1 AC
+65 Thieving Points

Dwarf

19 CON vs. 18 CON
+10 Hit Points at 10th Level
18/xx STR vs. 17 STR

It's a tough decision. I think it depends on personal playing style and equipment choices. I'd give the edge to the Halfling.


Here is the comparison between a Halfling and a Half-Orc:

Halfling

19 DEX vs. 18 DEX (no loss in AC and a minimal loss of thieving points if it is reduced to 18)
+75 Thieving Points
+5 Save against Paralyze/Poison/Death, Rod/Staff/Wand, and Spells

Half-Orc

19 STR vs. 17 STR (the Half-Orc can wear, say, the Belt of Inertial Barrier while another party member benefits from wearing the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength)
19 CON vs. 18 CON
+10 Hit Points at 10th Level (same Armor Class but worse saving throws, although magical damage can be reduced by half with the Belt of Inertial Barrier)


I'd say that the Half-Orc has the edge in combat (which is what I had in mind when I first suggested a Half-Orc Fighter/Thief). And I'd really like to give that Girdle of Hill Giant Strength to Keldorn or Jaheira. On the other hand, the Halfling Fighter/Thief is a better thief and is almost as good in combat with the right equipment.


All things considered, the contest is pretty darn close. I'd rank them in the following order:

Halfling
Dwarf
Half-Orc

...but I wouldn't argue with anyone who ranked them in a different order. The trade-offs make things interesting.

My thinking with regards to charisma is this.
Why worry about it? Put it at minimum.
There is the nice ring that boosts it to 18 early in the game, and other equipment can boost it still further.
In addition, if you don't mind using exploits, there is that useful staff found in the gate district (which as a thief you don't need to fight for) that can be used to boost it to 25. If you would rather not, just use items like Helm of Glory etc. when you go shopping.
If you don't know what I am talking about due to me trying to avoid spoilers, there are plenty of threads on the subject.

If you want to make a pure thief type, without dualcassing, I think you should go with either half-orc or elf. Half-orc would be easier in early game due to the strength bonus as thieves, while great damage dealers, have very bad THAC0 and strength helps, a lot. Elves however, they get a bonus to their dexterity (and thus can get it higher than any other race except for halflings). Strength can be altered through strength items, so, even if you start with three strength, depending on item choice and other choices, your thief could have 25 strength no matter what, which defeats the purpose of a half orc.

For a no buff damage build, I'd go with a human Kensai/Thief. Not only can he do 700 damage on a backstab (at most, when using Critical Strike and Kai in quick succession), but he can hold his own in melee combat, having more health than a thief, dealing more damage than a fighter and (in ToB) using any item he/she wants.

Crenshinibon wrote:For a no buff damage build, I'd go with a human Kensai/Thief. Not only can he do 700 damage on a backstab (at most, when using Critical Strike and Kai in quick succession), but he can hold his own in melee combat, having more health than a thief, dealing more damage than a fighter and (in ToB) using any item he/she wants.

You're talking about a character who has High Level Abilities (at least three of them) from the warrior pool (Critical Strike requires Power Attack) as well as the thief pool (Use Any Item). How many Kensai levels does he have to get before he is dual-classed? chaosjinni is playing a full party of six...

chaosjinni wrote:Saros--I hadn't considered the beserker. Would you hop over to my other thread and compare the beserker dualled to a thief vs a F/T?

Here is the simple answer: a Berserker dualled to a Thief is just like a Fighter dualled to a Thief, except that a Berserker can use the Rage ability a few times a day (depending on how many Fighter levels he has) and cannot use missile weapons (you can get around that restriction with dual-purpose weapons such as throwing axes and throwing daggers).

Think of it this way: Anomen is just like a Berserker dualled to a Cleric, except that he can use missile weapons and his "rages" don't give him any extra benefits.

I'd say that he can dual at around level 21. When I solo, I get enough experience to reach the cap BEFORE reaching chapter three. That's eight million, without the use of a certain one million experience bonus.

I think it's perfectly possible to get to the epic levels with six members. Still, he can dual class at say fifteen or so too, assuming that he gets buffed by other members of the group.

Don't forget that critical strikes work when the enemy is without a helm. The Kensai part is mainly for toe to toe combat as well as the increased attack rate along with the to hit and damage bonuses. Normal thieves however shoudln't be in melee, except to backstab.

You're forgetting that the thread starter explicitly stated he wanted to play a Thief. Or a partial one, at the very least.

Looking at the fact that he's playing with a full party, your build means his main character won't be a Thief for almost the entire part of SoA.

On a completely different note, are there racial limitations to Jaheira's romance? It's been so long that I can't rightfully remember. If there is, chaosjinni, I'm afraid you need to take your race into consideration if you're intending to romance Jaheira.

Before we go any further...


I'd like to point out that I'm impressed with the decorum of the members of this forum. You can trust me when I say I've been on a number of bulletin boards where the members don't know how to behave.


Second, I'd like to give you kudos for taking the time and effort to compose such meaningful responses. You've gone deep into the subject and used a careful methodoloy to arrive at your conclusions. I want you to understand that I recognize the investment, and I hope I can repay it at some future juncture.

This goes for everyone in the thread.


Now onto some further considerations...


Along with your advice, I've been reading a few FAQs on Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal.

In all three, the author recommended a party of four over a party of six. I've never finished this game, but I've gotten about halfway through on two occasions. Parties of six.

I'm willing to give a party of four a try, especially since it leaves spots open for quest NPC's to join.

My new ideal party

PC - Still ruminating on class/race, but will be part thief
Keldorn
Anomen
Jaheira

One advantage is I'll have them all in Chapter 1. I'm going to have to learn new tactics (of which I've been investigating) because of the shift in combat dynamics, but I'm ready to grow. I consider it the first step in eventually going solo.

All right, with that in mind, what are your revised suggestions?

With that party, which looks good, I'd suggest an Elven or Half-Elven Mage/Thief. A human Dual classed Thief/Mage would also work, but not as well IMO. With four characters in the party level progression will be fast, but not too fast. Using the combat enhancing spells (especially Tensers Tranformation), along with such spells as Improved Invisibility, Mislead etc., you'll be able to slug it out with most apponents. You'll also have the option of sneaking, discovering the enemy, backing off and letting fly with Greater Malison followed by Web, Death Cloud, Cloud kill etc, and just strolling in and picking up the loot.

If you want to take it easy, I'd suggest an elven bounty hunter. You have access to normal traps AND special traps, the latter of which become tactical weapons later on and can be thrown. Also, you can backstab for the same damage as a normal thief without that much of a loss for the abilities gained, like the more combat oriented assassin.

I should note here than traps can only be set when enemies can't see your thief or the enemy is under the fog of war. So,there really is no disadvantage to take a bounty hunter over a normal thief except that you lose 5 points per level, which, at level forty equals out to two hundred points lost. Also, if you put 100 in your set traps skill (so you can actually set traps successfully AND without hurting yourself), you should succeed almost all of the time.

Still, for pure combat I'd recommend at least *some* levels of Kensai in the build and make sure that the Kensai level is divisible by three as they get +1 to hit and damage every three levels, not to mention that you attack faster and have a greater chance of hitting the target. As a Kensai dual class (before you get use any item later in the game), you can't use ANY armor, except ioun stones, so you should use any AC you can muster, including spells like barkskin.

If you're going to start in BG2, and use a STR enhancing item, the Halfling F/T is easily the best choice.

I'd agree with Klorox, especially as you're going to run ToB. This means you'll be able to fully develop both classes. And that holds true even more if you plan to add an quest mods to the game.

PC - Still ruminating on class/race, but will be part thief
Keldorn
Anomen
Jaheira

You might want to consider a party of 5, and add Aerie, or substitute her for Anomen. Given that she's a C/M mix, the potential for a spellcasting powerhouse is enormous. Imagine a cleric who can Project Images, cast Timestop, and throw around multiple Bolts of Glory. Or Chain Contingency filled with anti-undead spells. The mix-and-match possibilities are enormous.

I'd like to point out that I'm impressed with the decorum of the members of this forum. You can trust me when I say I've been on a number of bulletin boards where the members don't know how to behave.

chaosjinni, welcome to GameBanshee. You'll find that this attitude is typical of all our forums. The site owner wants them to be a place for the exchange of ideas, not a five-alarm fire or spamfest. There are plenty of those around. We like it just fine the way it is.

Klorox wrote:If you're going to start in BG2, and use a STR enhancing item, the Halfling F/T is easily the best choice.

Did you glean that from the results I posted, or did you already know that? (I didn't know how the various races stacked up against each other until I rolled them up and compared them.)

I'm curious to know why people prefer a F/T over a M/T, by the time you get to the underdark a M/T can cream an F/T.