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Feel free to go at it. I'm curious who will come across as the most powerful of the three in the game's quests, without using any cheese.

Of the three I'd say that Haer' Dalis comes out on top due to his spin abilities as well as magical buffs, which could leave him invulnerable for a good period of time. Offensively he's stronger than both as with Tensor's and Improved Haste he makes more attacks than Keldy or Vally, not to mention that he can use any weapon they can AND he can lay traps AND effectively steal from stores. He's multiple classes in one, however he is a master fighter second only to Jan and Aerie.

Vally can scout and he can do massive damage with a critical strike and backstab combo. I think that's all he has over Keldy as True Sight isn't that useful and Dispel Magic can be covered by other characters.

Offensively he's stronger than both as with Tensor's and Improved Haste he makes more attacks than Keldy or Vally, not to mention that he can use any weapon they can...

Carsomyr? Or do you mean after HLAs?

I think that's all he has over Keldy as True Sight isn't that useful and Dispel Magic can be covered by other characters.

Agreed on True Sight. It's petty wimpy. But you can never have enough Dispel Magic available, unless, of course, it's Remove Magic, which is far better.

After HLA's he can use any weapon and before he's still powerful due to buffs and his spins. Also, Haer' Dalis has access to dispel magic too

I forgot to mention that Vally can back himself up with druid spells, more importantly AoF.

Crenshinibon wrote:After HLA's he can use any weapon and before he's still powerful due to buffs and his spins. Also, Haer' Dalis has access to dispel magic too

He can't move during those spins, though, unless you use the cheese of Free Action.

I forgot to mention that Vally can back himself up with druid spells, more importantly AoF.

Good point: I'd forgotten that. Hadn't had him in a party since my first play-through, when I reviewed the title on its release.

Why is using the Ring of Free action considered a cheese? It says that it frees the user or makes them immune to any affects that influence movement. Either way, without the Defensive Spin, which you can still use to your heart's content as enemies tend to come to you, you have the Offensive Spin (during which you can still move) which puts the Kensai's Kai to shame. Also, I'm pretty sure that you can still use them while under the effects of Tensor's Transformation.

I really can't see what Keldorn can do better than Valygar and I'm pretty sure that the armor restriction isn't a problem as Valygar can wear the White Dragon Scale which grants very nice AC.

Crenshinibon wrote:Why is using the Ring of Free action considered a cheese?

Because it removes a limitation on an otherwise over-powering pair of moves--a limitation that was deliberately put there to keep Haer'dalis from being a munchkin, in my opinion. Can't see any other reason for the stationary stuff. Can you? I mean, it wasn't as if he was kept from moving in battle because he had bad bronchitis, and his doctor said to slow down.

Mind, I'm not telling anybody they should avoid using the cheese of free action. I'm just labeling it as such, from my own perspective.

Valygar can be really good when backstabbing, because he has a better thac0 than thieves do. I always take him when I have Imoen around - she can pick locks and disable traps, but she can't hide in shadows and backstab at all. Together they can perform the duties of a mage, thief, fighter and, partly, priest, and that's without being multiclassed. Nice.

Haer'Dalis... well... he's great for roleplaying purposes, but honestly, I have read Crenshinibon's posts about spell combos more then once, and tried them more then thrice, and it never works for me. Really. I'm not saying they're wrong, but either I'm doing something wrong, or it just does not work in my game (I'd like to elaborate, but it would be offtopic). After reading all those blade guides, I can see they're a potent class, but getting the best out of them seems tiresome. More like chess (cheess? ) then BG.

I think they all have their strengths and weaknesses and can each work out virtually equally powerful. The bottom line for me has always been the role playing aspect.

I've never had Keldorn in my party beyond the point where he leaves to spend time with his family. Only a good aligned PC would take him, and such a PC (my concept obviously) wouldn't break up his family again for her/his own benefit.

No such obstacles as far as HD is concerned, although a Lawful character shouldn't be able to tolerate him for long, and vice versa.

Valleygirl on the other hand would be a poor fit for an evil protagonist, and shouldn't fit in with a magic using PC either obviously. I did get the best out of him once by cheating, using SK to DC him into a Ranger/Cleric, but that's by the by.

For pure power play then HD, with cheese on top, is obviously the most powerful potentially. Played straight he's the weakest, especially if you don't micro-manage and use scripts a lot. Without using cheese the Keldorn and Valygar are fairly even, I'd go with the latter, because he has the advantage of sneaking skills and (using throwing spears) ranged combat.

Until chapter 5, I'd say that Keldorn and Haer'dalis are pretty much equal, since one can wield Carsomyr and wear heavy armor while the second one can be pretty much invulnerable with proper buffing.

In chapter 5, however, things change thremendously in favour of Haer'dalis. He can cast 6th lvl spells(including True Sight if needed so much), can use Carsomyr(HLA received) or Scarlet Ninja-to, can wear Jan's Armor and other nice restricted items, can use the same potions Keldorn has access to, and has Remove Magic(obtained from Deirex's tower), which, although not equal to Keldorn's Dispel magic, is pretty much awesome since a bard's Remove magic is of higher level than if cast by a wizard of the same experience.

I haven't played much with Valygar, yet he also seems to be a decent choice, but I always prefer all of my party to be Stoneskined/Ironskined(and not only), so that leaves Rangers out.

BTW, have you ever tried Scarlet main and Belm off-hand with Haer'dalis? Pure 4 APR? With gauntlets 4,5. Improved Haste 9. Offensive Spin 11...

Don't forget that if the enemy doesn't have a helmet you can use backstab in combination with Critical Strike to gain mass to damage (around 400 for Stalkers) or to ensure that the backstab hits.

Again, I have to go with Haer' Dalis on this one, as always, and bards in general as yes, at the start they may not be great fighters due to a lower THAC0 but at that point, wands are still usable and useful, retaining a good portion of their power from BG and guess what? You get a bunch of them before you leave the starting area. At level seven he has access to spells one to three which gives him magic missle, chormatic orb (which is still useful at such a low level), mirror image, blur (which stacks with defensive spin) and haste. I personally would give him the Robe of Vecna as he is the one that will be casting in mid combat. Your mages will probably be p rebuffed and ready to go. Bad AC isn't a problem for a blade as he has spells such as mirror image, spirit armor and stoneskin as well as his special ability to protect himself.

Without cheese Haer' Dalis remains on top as he has around 300 hitpoints with Tensor's, lower AC and better THAC0 as well as a bonus to hit and damage, not to mention either doing maximum damage or making a good amount of attacks per round due to Improved Haste. He's well protected through stoneskin and mirror image, which is how you'd have him in combat. All this comes before the epics and when he gets there, your bard gets even stronger.

I use no scripts by the way.

Also, I'm pretty sure that attacks per round are capped at ten (with Improved Haste) as you'd be able to achieve around fourty with a Priest of Lathender.

I'd say H'D is the most powerful but he requires alot of micro management and spells. if your in a dungeon unless you sleep like mad you won't have all the mirror images or stone skins you'd like. In random fights he'll be weaker since you won't use him to full potential saving spells for the nastier encounters (at least thats what I did)

Another thing is that he relies on alot of cheese to maximize his potential: Wearing Jan's armour, Free action on defensive spin the list can go on. I personally see defensive spin as being a stationary ability because movement inherently makes one more vulnerable in sword combat. For roleplaying's sake I say it should also be used only if you're dual wielding 2 swords. (hammers, axes, spears, should not be allowed)

Between Valy and Keldorn I'd say Keldorn for the Carsomyr and dispel. both are point and click and will serve you well. If you want raw power for the toughest fights then get HD, he will be better then either Keldorn or Valygar even without cheese provided you micro manage him.