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I've been starting to ask myself why I try to add divine spellcasters to the parties I create. I mean, honestly, 9 out of 10 times I'd be better off with another sorcerer.

First of all, their main ability - healing - is pretty worthless. It's a long-ass casttime which is easily interrupted and unless it's a Heal or Restoration spell it's never worth the time. Healing in between battles is well, okay, but not necessary or in any way useful. In the same way is Revival spells nice to have, but not in any way needed.

Baldur's Gate II focuses a lot more on protections than HP and healing. If a caster is unguarded and the opponent finds that spot, he's dead. It's as simple as that. A normal fighter can dish out enough damage to kill anything in one round if it would be totally unprotected.

Now, they have some spells that are useful for certain situations. Chaotic Commands, Pro-Neg, Creeping Doom, Elemental Prince summon, Harm, Nature's Beauty and such, sure, I'm not saying they're totally worthless.

But really, arcane is so amazingly much better. It has GOOD protection spells, such as Pro-MW, Spell Immunity, Imp Invis, Stoneskin, Mirror Image. It has dispelling spells, which are once again the key to the gameplay of BG2. They also have access to trigger spells, opening a whole new world of tactics, and Planetar beats the hell out of anything a divine caster can summon.

Sure, it's true that a ranger/cleric or fighter/druid beats most pure fighter types, but they're not close to a fighter/mage combo. The difference between cleric/thieves and mage/thieves doesn't need to be mentioned. Selfcasting spells such as invisibility, mislead and time stop really benefits the rogue more than being able to heal. Etc.

Next time I make a party I'll definately stay away from making anything including cleric/druids. I'm sure you all will as well, because surely there's no real reason to have them?

Turn/Destroy Undead, by the time I get to Bodhi's lair with a cleric in tow the vamps don't stand a chance.

Some of a Cleric's spells that are more than a little useful:

Summon Deva, just as good IMO as a Planetar.

Sanctuary + Blade Barrier, Holy Smite, Zone of Sweet Air, Free Action,
Slow/neutralise poison, Flame strike, Raise dead/Resurrection, Restoration,
Magic Resistance (useful for lowering an opponents MR), Mass Cure, Creeping Doom.

Vampires aren't ever a problem anyway.

And sure, as I said, they do have a couple of nice spells, but a naked sorcerer would still easily outdo them in every way possible.

Which (IMO) just goes to show how much Mages and Sorcerers are over-cheesed in BG2. They aren't the only ones mind, because of the way that implimentation of UAI and item restrictions got butchered thief types are also over-cheesed. One example is Carsomyr, it should only be a +2 sword in any hands but a Paladins, but for some reason that wasn't implimented.

Well, that's the point. Mages are sick in every single combination. Thieves, when classed right, are equally overpowered. Fighters aren't in the same league but are still a very sweet addition to a lot of classes. But clerics and druids are just strong, at best. :/

It's not just BG2 by the way, back in the days when I used to play PnP it was always tough to find a player willing to play a 'wimpy' cleric, but every party needed one, much more so in fact than in BG2 really.

Another thing which annoys me (if I can go OT) is the lack of restriction on what spells a 'good' cleric can cast. Someone in another thread mentioned Aerie casting Animate Dead and Harm. Try doing that in a real D&D game, if it's kindly DM he/she will pint out in advance it wont work. A less benevolent DM would wait until the cleric attempted to cast the spell before breaking the news, and repeated attempts would lead to a visit from a Deva or some such with a dire warning, further transgression would lead to expulsion from the faith.

So, yeah I can understand your lack of faith* in divine casters, but I wouldn't leave home without one.

*pun not intended

galraen wrote:Turn/Destroy Undead, by the time I get to Bodhi's lair with a cleric in tow the vamps don't stand a chance.

Some of a Cleric's spells that are more than a little useful:

Summon Deva, just as good IMO as a Planetar.

Sanctuary + Blade Barrier, Holy Smite, Zone of Sweet Air, Free Action,
Slow/neutralise poison, Flame strike, Raise dead/Resurrection, Restoration,
Magic Resistance (useful for lowering an opponents MR), Mass Cure, Creeping Doom.

There are scrolls of Undead Protection. Undead are simply an annoyance rather than real threat.

Devas are not Planetars. Devas are weaker, slower, with less resistances and less spells. But I guess it is better than nothing...

Sanctuary is a good spell, but Blade Barrier and Globe of Blades are not, because as the game progresses, more and more enemies have pretty amazing saving throws. Especially in ToB. Aura of Flaming Death is way more useful.

Implosion is the best clerical/druidical spell. Short casting time, crushing damage, bypasses MR, disabling effect for a round.

The other good spells are Chaotic Commands, Holy Power, Righteous Magic, Bless, Chant, Aid, Death Ward. Unfortunately, these are defensive rather than offensive spells. A Cleric is a supportive caster. His spells take ages to resolve and are easily disrupted. Compared to an offensive Mage/sorcerer, a cleric is way underpowered. But he's essential in a party.

Elemental Summoning is a silly spell, because even the Elemental Princes are way too weak. Mass Raise Dead is another good supportive spell, but if you have to actually cast that one, I guess the fight has been lost anyway. The Energy Blades seem nice, yet Mages have that too. Storm of Vengeance is a disruptive for enemy mages spell, so - not a big deal.

Harm is a great spell, but takes ages to cast, and doesn't bypass MR check. Bolt of Glory is also good, because it bypasses MR, and still - casting time 9.

Clerics cannot protect their buffs - the first Dispel/Remove magic or Breach...and that's it.

So the only good reason to take a cleric protagonist is either dual-class R/C or T/C or the good old M/C. I succeeded in making an Invoker 22 - Cleric 23, and it turned out to be one of the most powerful characters ever played, but still - the cleric simply needs something to reduce casting time(Vecna), or storing spells in Triggers/Contingenices.

Compared to an Invoker lvl 31(xp cap), the Invoker-Cleric is way more powerful. 1 spell slot less than the pure invoker at wizard lvls 7,8 and 9, but with 3 7th lvl priest slots, 6 lvl 6 and so on downwards. Once more - the greatest power of this class is its versatility and the ability to store both clerical and mage spells in triggers/contingencies. And Implosion, cast at 0 casting speed under the effect of Improved Alacrity should never be underestimated.

Sort of OT, but I wonder if anyone has tried to complete the game without casting any spells, arcane or divine.

A shapeshifter can be a VERY powerful fighter (with it's claws dispelled if we're talking about cheeses) and a Priest of Lathender can get a a great THAC0 and five attacks per round while maintaining a great AC. Still, I was never one for healing, but a combination that I have come to like is the Kensai/Cleric. Massive damage output, buffs to keep you safe from attacks as you can't wear armor and my favorite, you have a THAC0 that's good enough to deliver Harm almost all of the time. Also, there IS a priest spell which will SET yours or an opponents magical resistance to x depending on what your level is, with a maximum of forty.

chaosjinn: Many members here have beaten and soloed (beat the game with a single character) without the use of spells. It's really not that hard nor does it make anything more difficult in my opinion.

3 things:

1)Healing is NOT the main purpose of a divine caster. Maybe it was in P&P D&D, but not anymore. There are tons of potions and regeneration items in BGII.

2)I somewhat agree with you. Personally, I create a C/R multiclass many times, and just have that one Divine caster handle all the divine spells. They get to choose from enough spells to get some real good ones at each level.

3)You'll love a high level Cleric in Chapter 6. Seriously.