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Help me complete a balanced party here:

So far, I've got:

Viconia
Haer'Dalis
Cernd

In my "standard setup" that works for my style of play, I'd like to have 1 primary spellchucker, and 2 more tanks. I also need somebody to handle locks and traps. Another requirement is that I'd really like to romance Viccy (I've started that once, but never completed it), and I need the party to stay together (without mods), so inparty killing is OUT.

I figure Imoen fits in pretty well for the main mage and traps/locks person, which leaves me needing 2 tanks.

I could use any of the following to fit that role:

Minsc
Korgan
Valygar
Mazzy (unconventional, but she works well in the role!)
Protagonist

I've never played a Wizard Slayer before, nor a Beastmaster. But I think a WS makes a better tank. I'm not dead-set on this though (as I love Berserkers). It's been a long time since I tried a single-classed Kensai too. Another interesting option is to try a Monk out.

Any and all suggestions here are welcome.
TIA

mhh for the 2 tanks i would consider
korgan and keldorn, if you really like banter, dispite their alignment difference they get along with each other and keldorn is quiet impresssed by korgan

and you could do wiz slayer and then dual him on around level 12 or 14 to a wiz so you get a decent arcane magic support

Since he's taking Vicky, he can't take Keldorn (he'll attack her after being in the same party 24 hours), unless he's willing to change the no-mod thing. I agree with Korgan though, he's fun and a great tank.

As for the last slot, I don't think you really need another tank, especially with a melee protagonist. Seeing as your party is neutral/evil at the moment, I'd suggest sticking with neutral/evil characters (you don't sound all that exited about Imoen, and you don't really need her). Edwin could make your primary spellchucker, I've personally always loved him (he gets along with korgan nicely too), and he's the best standard npc wizard in-game. The other option is Jan Janssen, who could take care of both spells and thievery.

What I would personally do is get both Edwin and Jan and drop either Cernd or Haer'Dalis. This would give you a nicely balanced party with two dedicated tanks (Korgan, protagonist), a healer who can handle herself in combat (Vicky), Two spellflingers, one of which doubles as your thief (Edwin and Jan), leaving the last spot for either Haer'Dalis or Cernd (both more or less fill a supporting role, you should be able to finish the game without problems with only the first 5). A nice bonus is that Edwin, Korgan, Vicky and Jan have a lot of fun banters between them (even without the banter pack).

Morghul wrote: What I would personally do is get both Edwin and Jan and drop either Cernd or Haer'Dalis. This would give you a nicely balanced party with two dedicated tanks (Korgan, protagonist), a healer who can handle herself in combat (Vicky), Two spellflingers, one of which doubles as your thief (Edwin and Jan), leaving the last spot for either Haer'Dalis or Cernd (both more or less fill a supporting role, you should be able to finish the game without problems with only the first 5). A nice bonus is that Edwin, Korgan, Vicky and Jan have a lot of fun banters between them (even without the banter pack).

Thanks for the help, but my whole purpose with this party is that I really never used Viconia, Cernd, or Haer'Dalis... so I intend on using them in this party.

I'm trying out Minsc as my tank, while playing a Half Orc Berserker.

We'll see if it sticks.

Mmm, Minsc doesn't have the same offensive edge as Korgan. I think Cernd is fun to play. ALSO, Cernd is a great tank against incoming magic and has the potential to be one of the strongest melee fighters.

Now, I know this works for PC characters, but it should work for NPCs as well. IF you are willing to give the strength bonuses and give them to Cernd (two to be exact) to get his strength to 15, then he should be able to dual to a fighter. His claws ARE dispellable, if you want take advantage of that and if not, he's still powerful with GWW and Hardiness to boost his already impressive resistances.

You probably know everything I have to say about Haer' Dalis so I won't repeat myself unless there is something that you specifically want to know.

As for the main character, I'd suggest either apure Kensai or a Kensai/Cleric. The latter one, if you've never tried it, is really fun. Sure, you can't wear armor and unbuffed, with items, at best, your AC will be about -6, but with Barkskin alone you go to -15. Even if you do go with a pure Kensai, you can get Viconnia to buff you up so that you're not so vulnerable in melee. You can do so yourself too with Defender of Easthaven and Hardiness (which yields 60% physical resistance or 85% physical resistance if you choose to go with a Kensai/Cleric and use Armor of Faith).

Well, Cernd I never used in ToB, yet I disagree that he's the one who has to be put as a magic-resistant shield in front, just because Haer'dalis and Vicky can do this a lot better than him. Haery can easily obtain MR of 80-85%, and Vicky - 100%. So, I'd say, for a mixed spellcaster/fighter group - Haery first. For a single powerful non-imprisoning spellcaster - Vicky first.

Apart from that, Viconia is a great buffer. BtW, I usually give her holy symbol to Haery, he can make more use of it.

I personally think that those three can win every fight by themselves, so it's up to you to pick characters/PC. My favourite are arcane casters, so I'd go with a Sorcerer protagonist, Aerie and Edwin. But Korgan is also good, he may replace Aerie.

interesting thread - I am running with a kensai dualled to thief (my first kensai) and thanks to Throne - she is level 12/33.
as a vanilla thief, she has got past the 200% mark in some disciplines and has excellent skills overall.
at that level, with white dragon-scale armour - she has a superb AC too and needs less than 0 THAC0, so she hits quite often.

To complement her in BG2 I used Jan, Edwin and Viconia. I have Saverok (as I'm in ToB now). Jan started out with complementary thief skills to the PC and Edwin (whilst a bit annoying) is a power-house of a caster. I used Vicky as a front-line melee fighter, but I also needed another fighter. I actually used Valgyar for a while and also HaeDalis - I even used Mazzy, but I felt that she was wrong for role-play reasons, so didn't take her back after her sister was well. HD is often under-rated and equipping him with the right weapons, he was doing well in many fights. I think I probably used Jaheira as my tank more than the others - it is amazing what red-dragon scale armour and a girdle of giant strength can do for a gal.

It has been a while since I used Korgan, but the way to get xp in the game often requires 'good' behaviour and I find CE characters are not convincing for RP reasons. Saverok is effectively under a geas in ToB, so I don't have a problem there.

Minsc makes an excellent tank. he has slightly less offense than Korgan but makes up for it with 25% damage resistance from Armour of Faith. Give him Hardiness, Flail of Ages +5 and Defender of Easthaven offhand for a total 85% damage resistance.

If your roleplaying evil however I would go with Korgan and exchange Imoen for Edwin. you can support korgan in Melee by being a Monk or a Wizard Slayer. I haven't tried the WS, but Monks are insane, definitly one of the more powerful melee classes.

Another suggestion: Jan, IMO he was one of the more enjoyable characters in the game...I had never played with him in my party before last year and his remarks and the unusual weapons made for a different experience..:laugh:

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:Minsc makes an excellent tank. he has slightly less offense than Korgan but makes up for it with 25% damage resistance from Armour of Faith. Give him Hardiness, Flail of Ages +5 and Defender of Easthaven offhand for a total 85% damage resistance.

If your roleplaying evil however I would go with Korgan and exchange Imoen for Edwin. you can support korgan in Melee by being a Monk or a Wizard Slayer. I haven't tried the WS, but Monks are insane, definitly one of the more powerful melee classes.

Minsc is good only at that - absorbing damage. Yet Valygar is the better choice for a Ranger, because he can also attain the 85% physical resistances like Minsc, but has access to more spells, and can also backstab.

Korgan can never attain more than 60% physical resistances, save from Wish for Hardiness, but is better with axes(especially if you have true GM tweak installed), can use the Dwarven Thrower, is immune to all disabling effects + Imprisonment, and with the Cloak of Mirroring, is pretty much immune to all negative spells&spell effects.

Monks are not very powerful. I haven't tried the tweak of Monk's HLAs, but in the original game, they really don't benefit much from the warrior HLA pool, their innate MR is good, yet lower compared to that of a WS, they cannot be Impr. Hasted which is a great drawback for a warrior class, and are really susceptible to physical damage and arrows because they cannot use neither the Reflection shield nor the Defender of Easthaven.

A solo Wizard-Slayer is hard, but not impossible to play through Ascension, but in a party, he's the best tank you can have. High innate MR(84% at lvl 40), combined with spellcasting failure on hit(do carry some normal weapons to bypass enemy's ProMW), and with mighty buffing including Improved Haste, a Wizard-Slayer is maybe the best warrior tank or at least - as good as an Enraged Berserker.

Monks are not very powerful....

Have you actually tried playing one?? I'm shocked to hear this. They may not hold a candle to fighter/cleric (depends how usefull you find immunity to magic) but they're definitly better than any straight fighter subclass. The Wizard slayer may have more magic resistance but why would you need over a hundred anyway?? 1D20 attack at +4, immune to poison, charm, all forms of magic, GWW, Hardiness.... not mention the gloves from the fish city........ To sum it up you've got a tank who deals out 30-50 dmg per hit, is fast and immune to magic. he loses out on a bit of physical damage resistance but physical damage is the most harmless form of attack anyway.

Duals are won or lost mostly by arcane power in the unmodded game. Tanks are there to protect mages and kill of cannon fodder that would otherwise cause mages to waste useful spells. The wizard slayer is also a strong class but he has too many limitations IMO making him alot worse than a Monk. He is only useful dualed to a thief or mage. When you bring in dual classes however it is not a fair comparison. You only need 13 levels in fighter to get the most out of that class then you dual to mage or thief. The cheese you can pull of with high level thieves, or more significantly mages, are why such a combo would outclass the monk. This does not mean he's a weak class however, play one and see. I'm currently taking one through again to test the improved monk HLA's, if it's true that they make him more powerfull then he will be a god indeed.

Minsc is good only at that - absorbing damage. Yet Valygar is the better choice for a Ranger, because he can also attain the 85% physical resistances like Minsc, but has access to more spells, and can also backstab

Agreed, but Valygar is like one of the NPC's from BGI. He has absolutly 0 personality which is why I would take Minsc over him anyday. IMO enjoyable party interactions are alot more valuable than having a slight edge in combat.

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:Have you actually tried playing one?? I'm shocked to hear this. They may not hold a candle to fighter/cleric (depends how usefull you find immunity to magic) but they're definitly better than any straight fighter subclass. The Wizard slayer may have more magic resistance but why would you need over a hundred anyway?? 1D20 attack at +4, immune to poison, charm, all forms of magic, GWW, Hardiness.... not mention the gloves from the fish city........ To sum it up you've got a tank who deals out 30-50 dmg per hit, is fast and immune to magic. he loses out on a bit of physical damage resistance but physical damage is the most harmless form of attack anyway.

I've soloed a Monk in SoA only, SoA+ToB and I've played a Monk in a team.

Since I always play on Insane, physical damage means a lot since almost every enemy can take down my Monk with 2-3 blows. Once in a party my Monk, equipped with Ring of Gaxx, Protection+2 Boots of Avoidance, girdle of Piercing and Cloak of the Sewers, with base AC -9 and missile AC adjustment an additional -18, fell down to a Kobold arrow attack - 2 or 3 arrows hit him and that was it.

Magic Resistance is good, yet that doesn't mean that he's immune to all magic. There are spells and spell effects that ignore MR, not to mention that he's not immune to Stun, Hold and other dangerous attacks. In another game, my 40th lvl monk, equipped as best as could be, in the second floor of WK, fell to a Stunning Dart from a Kuo-Toa. My saving throws were pretty good, and missile AC was something like -30 or more in total.

40% Physical resistance on Insane means absolutely nothing, unless you add something like Jan's Armor, Defender of Easthaven or Armor of Faith to that.

Monk's immunities are nice, yet they are copied by the Ring of Gaxx pretty much. A Monk is not under Free Action, but cannot be Hasted, which is pretty bad. Meaning that every fighter when Impr Hasted will have twice as much attacks compared to a Monk. And twice as much HP all of the time.

GWW is the best thing a Monk can pick from the HLA pool, because only this way can he utilize most of the weapons needed. Yet this is still insuficient.

A Monk cannot wear Vhailor's Helmet.

The only thing I haven't tried with a Monk is the improved HLAs. Maybe with them a Monk is more worth playing.

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:
Duals are won or lost mostly by arcane power in the unmodded game. Tanks are there to protect mages and kill of cannon fodder that would otherwise cause mages to waste useful spells. The wizard slayer is also a strong class but he has too many limitations IMO making him alot worse than a Monk. He is only useful dualed to a thief or mage.

WS is almost useless when dualled to anything. Because only 40th lvl WS will has the benefits of his class. Casting failure on hit isn't half as important as innate MR of 84%, which can easily with items and rewards be made 100%. A monk can do the same, yet cannot utilize weapons as efficiently and doesn't have that many attacks or HP. Besides, dualling means diminished quantity of HLA total(especially from the warrior pool), which is essential indeed.

Just to note - I've played a solo WS on Insane with Ascension mod installed, so I've tested a lot.

is 'insane' level really much fun? the game is structured so that the number of regular enemies can be utterly overwhelming - to have them able to do so much harm surely requires the player to spend most of the time in buffing to avoid every being hit/damaged?

I don't like to spend ages preparing for a routine scrap - in fantasy literature (and films) the main character, the equivalent of the PC - can usually handle the cannon-fodder without breaking sweat - i.e. an Orc ambush or coming across a troll, whereas it is only the end-boss and their hench-things that pose a real challenge - it is in the nature of such books and films that whilst the protagonist may suffer some wounds etc, they never get seriously harmed other than by high-level opponents.

same with martial arts films - Bruce Lee in "Enter the Dragon" - probably beats 50 or so underlings before facing a Grand-Master level end-boss, who he can only defeat after taking serious damage. FRP is like that usually - the party are inherently capable of beating most enemies without taking too much damage - insane level sounds as if you are taking "Thief" level damage with "Warcraft" numbers of enemies.

do you get enhanced xp for everything?

I have just done the Sendai enclave part of ToB and having hordes of enemies attacking even a strong party on less than insane level was quite a challenge - I lost all party members apart from the PC. monster after beserk monster appearing from nowhere right on top of the party and not ever giving them time to cast anything was not good. mind you, the treasure was phenomenal - more plate +1 than you could shake a two-handed sword +2 at.

If you say a straight WS is better than a monk, tell me what a wizard slayer can do that a monk can't ?? both will end up with over 100% MR the Monk will do alot more damage per hit but will take 20% more damage since he's not able to use Defender of East Haven. Neither can use AoF unless dualed. The Monk can use al sorts of rings cloaks ect and will have a better armour class and is faster too. On top of that he gets all this without hording team items so somebody else can use the good stuff. This isn't an issue in a solo game obviously, but still deserves consideration.

Last time I played I had roughly -15 with items, which isn't bad. IMO it is alot better to dual a WS to thief from a power playing perspective then you can use Carsomyr and Gaxx which will make you immune to magic alot faster and lets you use traps, which are not to be underestimated.

Regarding saving throws you must have gotten unlucky that one time, Any properly equiped high level char should save on anything but a 1 on a D20 die. I've also never had a problem with any annoying effects, my monk was, for all intents and purposes, immune to magic.

I can't really comment on insane, other than to say regardless of the physical damage you take, I'd rather face a tank like Gromnir or Yaga Shura than a competent arcane caster like tougher Sendai.

Edit: The hit point difference will be small, and as for attacks if you've got 15 GWW I doubt standard attacks per round really matter. you only need 3-5 Hardiness anyway

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:If you say a straight WS is better than a monk, tell me what a wizard slayer can do that a monk can't ?? both will end up with over 100% MR the Monk will do alot more damage per hit but will take 20% more damage since he's not able to use Defender of East Haven. Neither can use AoF unless dualed. The Monk can use al sorts of rings cloaks ect and will have a better armour class and is faster too. On top of that he gets all this without hording team items so somebody else can use the good stuff. This isn't an issue in a solo game obviously, but still deserves consideration.

I've played mainly Ascension, so here it is:

A Monk will not do "a lot more damage". A Monk has 4 APR, and CANNOT BE improved hasted. A Wizard-slayer has(with proper weapons) 4,5 APR and if impr. hasted, those attacks are 9 APR. No matter how much damage a Monk will inflict with his 4 APR, a WS will inflict more. Not to mention, that some important weapon effects, like CF's stun, FoA's slow and so on will apply very often with a WS's attacks while a Monk cannot rely on his GWW attacks always. Besides, an Ascension solo warrior needs at least 10 Hardinesses in order to survive, so it is a maximum of 10 GWW attacks you'll have, and those aren't really always enough, especially in ToB.

A Monk CANNOT hold the reflection shield. You may think that your missile AC is sufficient, yet it is absolutely not.

A 40th lvl Monk will have maybe 140-150 HP. A 40th lvl WS will have 230.

So let's summarize:

Wizard-Slayer | Monk

Slow walking speed unless hasted | High walking speed
100% MR | 100% MR
More attacks per round | More damage with fists
Can be Impr. Hasted Cannot be Impr Hasted
Can use Shields, Helmets and all weapons | Can use few weapons
Cannot use potions and misc Can use potions and misc
Almost twice as high HP | Decent HP
Spellcasting failure on Hit | No
Reflection shield | Great Missile AC(yet insufficient)

I personally find myself using weapons, shields, helmets and such more often than cloaks, rings and potions. Green protection scrolls are another thing, but a WS can use those too, as well as some other items like Brine Potions, Wand of Cursing, Wand of Reversal. A solo Monk doesn't have a stable decoy or combat ally because he cannot use the Vhailor's Helmet. A Monk has absolutely no way around Imprisonment, while a WS can copy a Pro Magic scroll via Vhailor's and survive, or simply use his Simmy for an Imprisonment target. A Monk has more summoning items, yet cannot use Spectral Brand, one of the best summons there is.

A Monk would be great if he had HLAs like Balthazar in the final Ascension battle. Those protect from Lvl drain, Time Stop, Imprisonment and the like for a limited time, and not only that.

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:

Last time I played I had roughly -15 with items, which isn't bad. IMO it is alot better to dual a WS to thief from a power playing perspective then you can use Carsomyr and Gaxx which will make you immune to magic alot faster and lets you use traps, which are not to be underestimated.

Great. So no warrior's HLAs? Or do I get just 1 Hardiness, 1 GWW, 2 Spike Traps and UAI? Either way, I don't like it.

AC means NOTHING in ToB. Even -26.

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:
Regarding saving throws you must have gotten unlucky that one time, Any properly equiped high level char should save on anything but a 1 on a D20 die. I've also never had a problem with any annoying effects, my monk was, for all intents and purposes, immune to magic.

I don't reload. So it's normal to get unlucky. But the risks I have to take are way much more with a Monk compared to the risks with a WS. A WS using various items can make himself immune to many more forms of attacks compared to a monk.

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:
I can't really comment on insane, other than to say regardless of the physical damage you take, I'd rather face a tank like Gromnir or Yaga Shura than a competent arcane caster like tougher Sendai.

Your choice completely. Yet with a solo fighter character, whether a Monk or Wizard-Slayer, the Gromnir fight is much tougher than Sendai. Because of the epic fighter in his group who constantly dispells all of your buffs(including Hardiness, GWW and so on) on hit. And then the rest kill you in 1-2 blows(on Insane, maybe on Easy you have enough time to kill them all without any buffs)

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:
Edit: The hit point difference will be small, and as for attacks if you've got 15 GWW I doubt standard attacks per round really matter. you only need 3-5 Hardiness anyway

Look above. A solo Ascension warrior will need at least 10 or even more Hardinesses for the last Ascension fight.

What items precisly is a Wizard slayer allowed to use ?? I always thought he was disallowed to use anything expect for armour and weapons. There are plenty of useful boots cloaks rings ect.

A 40th lvl Monk will have maybe 140-150 HP. A 40th lvl WS will have 230

Umm last time around I had about 190 while Korgan had over 200. We weren't at level 40 but close to. It's 1d8 vs 1d10 the first 10, levels after that everybody gets 3 so in theory your losing 20hp, The difference may be larger but not on the order of 80hp. I see the point however more hp for the wizard slayer.

Secondly last time I checked magic resistance protected against imprisonment. Abazigal, try as he might could not imprison the monk. whether or not the WS is stronger depends on what he can use. Particularly I'm interested which wands he can use.

Vhalor's helm is a strong advantage but I never use it, and IMO duplicating scrolls using Vhalor's is the hight of cheese. Also remember that the Monk can outpace anybody and hide in shadows with non-detection for hit and run tactics or simply to take a breather from a hard battle. This is an enormous advantage, especially when soloing. Yes the WS can rely on invisibility potions (can he??) but even if so the enemy will just cast true sight.

Another thing if your soloing who's going to cast the improved haste on you ?? and If your not soloing then the odd 15 GWW will definitly last you all day at least between rests.

The last thing I want to bring up is that dualing to a thief IS the way to go. You lose innate MR that's it, who cares ?? You gain all the benefits of UAI, Traps and Assasination. You can now use ANY wizard scroll (improved haste time stop, you know it doesn't end here) You can use Gaxx and Carsomyr for times when you need MR, that along with your level 13 innate bonus as well as the 10% SoA bonus should get you 100%. you can use Jan's armour for a CONSTANT 25% damage reduction. You also still have 9 APR with the right weapons since APR does not go up past level 13. If your going solo you can look into going higher for an extra bit of MR,but going to level 40 as a WS is pointless.I can't stress this enough,Hardiness alone is no reason to continue progression as a WS, I'm not even taking into accont GWW since as a mage or a thief you can buff yourself so you have 9 APR which is essentially the same as GWW.

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:Secondly last time I checked magic resistance protected against imprisonment.

The last time I played, my char with 115% MR got Imprisoned by an Elder Orb, maybe it's a case of bad scripting yet again.

Unfortunately, as much as I like the class, I have to say that my experience is close to that of Saros. The Monks usually do have around 140 HP and their saving throws are about as good as those of a cleric. Still, it's not enough to fall to a stunning effect. This might be because of a mod. I NEVER had a monk fall to a Kua-Toa or a Kobold before.

The reason why the Monk's "Freedom" is more of a disadvantage rather than an advantage is for the reasons that Saros said. You CAN cast Improved Haste on yourself through Amulet of Cheetah Speed, Improved Cloak of Protection +2 and of course the Ring of Gaxx. So for a Monk, the only way to go beyond four and a half attacks per round is Greater Whirlwind, at which point, on harder enemies it's probably a good idea to just equip a sword and quickly drain their wisdom to zero.

The speed of a Monk, in my opinion, is just player convenience and unless you have someone specifically cast Non-Detection on the Monk, you'll have to wear a cloak, meaning that you sacrifice a better one. In my experience, at the end of ToB the Monk will have around -18 or -19 AC. A Monk can still protect himself with Mirror Image or Stoneskin though, and I'm pretty sure than a Wizard Slayer cannot.

For your typical fighter type, I usually go mostly with Hardiness and then dual or move on to deathblow, in the case of the Barbarian. I never pick up GWW because it's effect is so closely mimicked by Improved Haste.

A Monk can survive for a good while in combat, even on Insane, from my experience, but it's so much more of a hassle to keep him/her alive, however, I can't say I like the WS a lot because while they have more of an offensive edge, they're a pretty boring class to play.

So, a Wizard Slayer can indeed use the amulet of cheetah speed ?? That does tend to change things in favour of the wizard slayer. Oh well it might be that he's slightly better than a Monk, but calling the Monk a weak class is an exaggeration by far. My arguement was based on (it seems), a false assumption that the WS could use basically nothing except for magic armour and weapons. I might just try WS/Thief dual class.

I'll also report back (if this thread still has any activity by then) regarding the hp of a high level monk. I'm sure I had alot more than 140-150 at around level 36-38. I did give him 1 extra constitution from the Machine of Lum however. your AC Crenshinibon sounds about right in fact, I think I had less -16 or so

Well, a Wizard Slayer/Thief would be able to use that amulet, however, I am unsure whether or not the pure classes would be able to use it. It's entirely possible that in combat, class versus class, the monk would lose against each one, even a buffed melee mage type. Yes, the damage okay, but it can be so much higher and while you can use Gauntlets of Crushing for the extra +4 to hit and damage, you're probably going to be using the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Expertise for the extra one half attack per round. The first one will probably be used while under the effects of GWW.