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So, I read in another topic that the Inquisitor's Dispel Magic ability doesn't count as Abjuration. Is this true? And in that case, what does it count as, does it applies to the True Sight as well, and is there more things that makes this class quite awesome?

Maybe I should've picked up Keldorn once in a while. ;o

I do not know about the dispel, but Inquisitor True Sight is stopped by SI ivination, so I expect that the dispel spell is also implemented 'correctly' as per the wizard dispel.

Keldorn's dispel is superb by ToB - I often found it very useful - I didn't realise how useful it was until I used it to stop insect plagues etc - it works on everybody at the same time. watch out though - it also can de-buff friends.

Just what makes it, and in which way is it, so superb?

I think the better question is,
why is dispel magic better than remove magic?

Exactly. Whenever I use Keldorn his dispel is a last resort kind of thing due to it's nature of being a double edged sword. It is however useful for debuffing liches it is arguably more important to debuff a lich then to keep your own buffs active during the fight.

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:Exactly. Whenever I use Keldorn his dispel is a last resort kind of thing due to it's nature of being a double edged sword. It is however useful for debuffing liches it is arguably more important to debuff a lich then to keep your own buffs active during the fight.

But why use Dispel on a lich, when you could have Keldorn wield Carsomyr at it? Same Dispel, but on a target instead of an area that (potentially includes your party. On the one hand, Carsomyr may not hit. On the other, Keldorn's Dispel is cast, and may be interrupted. If I understand Carsomyr's effects correctly, Dispel is always activated when any damage occurs.

fable wrote:But why use Dispel on a lich, when you could have Keldorn wield Carsomyr at it? Same Dispel, but on a target instead of an area that (potentially includes your party. On the one hand, Carsomyr may not hit. On the other, Keldorn's Dispel is cast, and may be interrupted. If I understand Carsomyr's effects correctly, Dispel is always activated when any damage occurs.

Because, Carsomyr cannot hit an enemy with Protection from Magical Weapons on. And while Carsomyr has Dispel Magic ability, it is calculated as any other item spell-like ability - strength 10(meaning the Dispel Magic of Carsomyr is equal to the Dispel Magic cast by a tenth-level caster). While Keldorn's Dispel Magic, when he's lvl 20(or above) is equal to lvl 40 Dispel Magic - it practically dispels everything which is not protected by SI: Abjuration.

By the way, Keldorn's dispel works fine in a party of five arcane casters. Just make sure your casters are always under SI: Abjuration.

Keldorn's dispel has a casting time 1, as does his True Sight, and they're special abilities, so I'd say their casting cannot be interrupted. Maybe even Insect Plague or other spellcasting failure effects cannot foil them, I have to check to be sure.

Saros wrote:Because, Carsomyr cannot hit an enemy with Protection from Magical Weapons on.

Whereas Dispel itself is counted an area effect? What protections are available to protect against the Inquisitor's Dispel, barring natural ones?

And while Carsomyr has Dispel Magic ability, it is calculated as any other item spell-like ability - strength 10(meaning the Dispel Magic of Carsomyr is equal to the Dispel Magic cast by a tenth-level caster). While Keldorn's Dispel Magic, when he's lvl 20(or above) is equal to lvl 40 Dispel Magic - it practically dispels everything which is not protected by SI: Abjuration.

This makes a good argument for late use of Keldorn's innate Dispel, but not earlier in the game. I recall having Jan polymorphed into a mustard jelly, drawing the lich's attention while Carsomyr was successfully wielded. Don't recall Protection from Magical Weapons stopping it.

Keldorn's dispel has a casting time 1, as does his True Sight, and they're special abilities, so I'd say their casting cannot be interrupted.

They are, sadly, and repeatedly. I can't tell you how annoying that is. Unless a mod I'm using has reset the time that takes.

If I'm not mistaken, Carsomyr's Dispel is set at level 15, while the upgraded one (+6) is set at level 20. Since a lich is level 20+ (think 22/23?), this means that Carsomyr +5 dispel will succeed between 1-10% of the time. (50% if casters are same level, +/-10% for each level difference between the casters, caps at 99% success/failure)

Granted that Carsomyr is great (and it's dispel too), I would not count on it against high level mages simply because of a) its casting level and b) as Saros says, Carsomyr bounces off all casters protected from magical weapons, as it should be. (breach them first, and your luck might change though)

Early game Keldorn is great, as at around level 11-12 his dispel level is that of the highest level arcane casters in the game.

Regarding his casting time, innate's are at casting time 1, but are interruptable.
To better your chances, move him a bit away from combat just prior casting or alternatively, give him the amulet of power to decrease the casting time to 0.
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The only thing about all this that I am not 100% sure of is caster level caps. I wonder if they are also capped at 20 as the damage output. Though I cannot confirm it, I highly doubt it, as Keldorn's Dispel is vastly more effective at level 15 than at level 10 against lich protections.

I've also heard that Carsomyr +5 dispels at the level of a level 10 caster. I'm not sure about the +6 version, but thats really unimportant. By the time you get the +6 version, your clerics will be exploding liches at will, and your thieves ought to be chunking them with 1 backstab.

Keldorns dispel is extremely useful early on since liches are level 20 casters. Keldorn at level 12 with dispel at level 24 will debuff liches nicely approximatly 90% of the time combine that with breach and your all set. Since it's innate it also has it's uses in debuffing the team from crippling negative effects, should they arise.

the protection used by mages/liches can stop carsomyr, hence the usefulness of the cast dispel - Mantle, Improved Mantle etc are often deployed by high level enemies - when Kedlorn is level 20 and casting at 40 the quick de-buff of his DM THEN regularly hitting with Carsomyr is pretty effective - if he is wearing the ring of Gaxx, he can haste after the general de-buff and the enemy has little chance to restore protection. enemy contingencies are fewer in number than Keldorn's DMs.

Silvanerian wrote:Granted that Carsomyr is great (and it's dispel too), I would not count on it against high level mages simply because of a) its casting level and b) as Saros says, Carsomyr bounces off all casters protected from magical weapons, as it should be. (breach them first, and your luck might change though)

I make it a point of always having casters throwing Breach and Lower Resistance, though I'm not sure the second is truly effective against the liches, given the way some game enemies circumvent the rules. So possibly Breach + Carsomyr is having the somewhat greater success I see.

Regarding his casting time, innate's are at casting time 1, but are interruptable.
To better your chances, move him a bit away from combat just prior casting or alternatively, give him the amulet of power to decrease the casting time to 0.

Not to belabor the point, but this happens so often in my games to any special powers Keldorn invokes, that I've stopped using them in battle. And he's always the one I put near the lich, unless it's a polymorphed Jan; but then, if you use Dispel, there goes Jan's mustard jelly-based magical immunity. Or any buffs used on anybody you would care to put in front of Keldorn. Bah. Remove Magic is much better.

Is this something specific for Keldorn is does it apply to the whole inquisitor class?

Bloody hell, I can't believe I didn't know this. Now I'm considering throwing in an Inquisitor in my next party.

Thrifalas wrote:Is this something specific for Keldorn is does it apply to the whole inquisitor class?

Bloody hell, I can't believe I didn't know this. Now I'm considering throwing in an Inquisitor in my next party.

Might want to search recent threads. Keldorn receives a great deal of criticism for his combat skills. Personally, I like using him, since I'm not into power-partying, and I like trying to think about how to best use my party's potential.

Not that I frequently succeed, but trying's a good part of the fun, anyway.

Back to the subject: Does Remove Magic work as well in all situations as the Inquisitor's Dispel?

Remove magic is better in fights against low-medium level mages, but not against powerful arcane casters such as liches or Irenicus. The reason is that remove magic does everything dispel does but dosn't debuff allies. However remove magic is not that likely to succeed against say a lich. Regarding lich fights it's critical to get past their defenses asap even if it costs you your buffs. Once the lich starts throwing around nasty spells the fight is over for a low level team anyway, even with buffs.

As far as Keldorn goes he's a powerful enough fighter easly on par with Minsc. Just give him the dexterity gloves and he's set.

Jedi_Sauraus wrote:Remove magic is better in fights against low-medium level mages, but not against powerful arcane casters such as liches or Irenicus. The reason is that remove magic does everything dispel does but dosn't debuff allies. However remove magic is not that likely to succeed against say a lich. Regarding lich fights it's critical to get past their defenses asap even if it costs you your buffs. Once the lich starts throwing around nasty spells the fight is over for a low level team anyway, even with buffs.

As far as Keldorn goes he's a powerful enough fighter easly on par with Minsc. Just give him the dexterity gloves and he's set.

Already done. Admittedly he lacks the weapons skill of Korgan (as several people here have pointed out), but I've always liked his ability to wield Carsomyr. Maybe I'm missing out on something else, if he keeps getting hit while trying to use his special abilities. I'll try pumping him up again and sending him out against a lich with Dispel going. Use Kelsey for Breach before, or after Dispel? And will Lower Resistance work at all on a lich?

fable wrote:Already done. Admittedly he lacks the weapons skill of Korgan (as several people here have pointed out), but I've always liked his ability to wield Carsomyr. Maybe I'm missing out on something else, if he keeps getting hit while trying to use his special abilities. I'll try pumping him up again and sending him out against a lich with Dispel going. Use Kelsey for Breach before, or after Dispel? And will Lower Resistance work at all on a lich?

Carsomyr can be wielded far better by Haer'dalis, not to mention the fact that the wielder in this case is far more invulnerable than Keldorn.

Breach doesn't work on Liches, unless you install a tweak from the G3 site. Liches are Immune to lvl 5 and lower spells, meaning that Breach and Lower Resistance are ineffective. But liches are not magic resistant. The annoying thing about them is their many Chain Contingencies and Spell Triggers(about 4 or 5 total), and all of them include ProMW, Mislead and another powerful spell(Spell Trap for instance). Moreover, several of the Lich's coningencies are set 'On Hit'. That's why I prefer using spells to get rid of a Lich rather than combat. Death Fog is a perfect way to disrupt lich's spells and kill it. Incendiary Cloud is a better spell, yet Elemental liches are immune to fire. Horrid Wilting may succeed, then again may not, but is also a good option vs liches. Sunray is of course the first spell of choice here, along with other clerical spells like False Dawn and so on.

Breach from a wand works on liches, since it is considered lvl 6 spell. Yet a Breach from a wand of Spell Striking is absorbed/turned by Spell Deflection/Turning/Trap. So first make sure a Lich doesn't have any of these on.

The best thing you can send vs a Lich is an arcane caster(best fighter/mage or blade, if not - cleric/mage armed with instant-destroy weapon like Improved Mace of Disruption or Azuredge), buffed with Death Ward, Chaotic Commands, Resist Fear(these are your anti-symbol spells, and not only, they also protect vs Maze, Disintegrate, Death Spell, Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death, Dominate, Confusion, and so on), Pro Magic Energy(vs Horrid Wilting and Larloch's Minor Drain), Pro Acid(vs Melf's Acid Arrow), Pro Fire(vs Sunfire&Meteor Swarm), ProEvil(vs Gate), SI: Abjuration(vs Remove Magic), Prot from Petrification and Spirit Armor. This is enough to make your character immune to all spells a lich can throw at you. Just remember to refresh SI: Abjuration.

Saros wrote:Carsomyr can be wielded far better by Haer'dalis, not to mention the fact that the wielder in this case is far more invulnerable than Keldorn.

And can't move. An invulnerable pillar is still a pillar. I know there's cheese to get around that, but since that's no more the intention of the developers than editing Keldorn's character to give him extra stars in any weapons skill, I consider it a wash. I won't use cheats to improve either.

Breach doesn't work on Liches, unless you install a tweak from the G3 site. Liches are Immune to lvl 5 and lower spells, meaning that Breach and Lower Resistance are ineffective. But liches are not magic resistant. The annoying thing about them is their many Chain Contingencies and Spell Triggers(about 4 or 5 total), and all of them include ProMW, Mislead and another powerful spell(Spell Trap for instance). Moreover, several of the Lich's coningencies are set 'On Hit'. That's why I prefer using spells to get rid of a Lich rather than combat.

So the best way to avoid setting 'em off is to use an area spell like Dispel. Okay--now you've convinced me it's better than Carsomyr. I only hope I get a chance to use it before being disrupted. That happens regularly, as I've pointed out before.

Death Fog is a perfect way to disrupt lich's spells and kill it. Incendiary Cloud is a better spell, yet Elemental liches are immune to fire. Horrid Wilting may succeed, then again may not, but is also a good option vs liches. Sunray is of course the first spell of choice here, along with other clerical spells like False Dawn and so on.

I've tried Sunray, using my current cleric PC, but didn't make a dent in it. At least, the liches I tried it on were just as healthy within a couple of minutes of casting as they had been at the start of battle. Can liches put up defenses against that spell?

fable wrote:And can't move. An invulnerable pillar is still a pillar. I know there's cheese to et around that, but since that's no more the intention of the developers than editing Keldorn's character to give him extra stars in any weapons skill, I consider it a wash. I won't use cheats to improve either.

Defensive stance is useless for Haer, as he's pretty darn invulnerable against fighters with Pro-MW, Stoneskin, Fireshield, Mirror Image and Spell Immunity: Abjuration up.