GameBanshee Forums

Hi

Want to ask some question about bows.
I know that much had been said, however i just want to clarify.

Longbow
Elven Court Bow +3
Thaco: +4
Weight: 2
Speed factor: 4

Heartseeker +3
Thaco: +4
Damage: +2
Weight: 7
Speed factor: 4

Strong Arm +2
Heartseeker +3
Thaco: +3 bonus
Damage: +2 bonus
Weight: 7
Speed factor: 4

Shortbow
Tuigan Bow +1
Thaco: +1 bonus
Damage: +1
Weight: 2
Speed factor: 5

Tansheron's Bow +3
Thaco: +3 bonus
Weight: 2
Speed factor: 3
*no ammo

Short Bow of Gesen
Thaco: +4
Damage: 2 piercing,1-8 electrical
Weight: 2
Speed factor: 4
*no ammo

Above i have shortlisted some bows.

1. Why does some thaco just have numbers while some have the word bonus behind?

2. Damage - How come some bow has damage while other don't?
Does this means in addition to the damage done by arrow, there is still this "damage" to add on?

3. How does +1/+2 arrows works in the calculation?

4. If i were to use the 2 no ammo short bow(Short Bow of Gesen and Tansheron's Bow +3) with +1/+2 arrows, will i still get the Damage in addition to the bonus of the +1/+2 arrows?

5. If my pc is a Elf Archer, my race will give me bonus to longbow. How much should this affect my choice between longbow and shortbow?
if going by lore, i would chose longbow since archer should use longbow in addition to the race.

6. I understand that 2 of the short bows offer no ammo. But between Heartseeker +3 with +1/+2 arrows and Short Bow of Gesen, which is the stronger bow?

7. If someone have the patience/time, care to explain how to calculate dmg for ranged weapon?

Many thanks.

First of all, some corrections.
Elven Court Bow actually adds +3 to THAC0.
Strong Arm requires 19 str to be wielded and provides +3 THAC0 and +3 DMG.
The Tuigan bow not only adds bonus +1 to THAC0 and DMG, but also an extra attack per round.

There are more bows in SoA:

The Ripper +2(planar sphere): a Composite Bow providing +2 to THAC0 and damage
Mana Bow +4(cave outside Suldanesselar) - long bow +4 to THAC0 and 20% resistance to magical damage while equipped.



The ** in any ranged weapon adds +1 to THAC0 and +2 to damage when using weapon of that kind. So if your skill with a longbow is *, then you'll deal damage equal to the arrow damage(plus bow bonus). If your skill is **, then add +2 to the total above.

The damage is calculated this way - arrow damage(1d6 base plus elemental/other bonuses, don't forget that enchanted +1, +2 and +3 arrows actually don't deal more damage than an unenchanted arrow), plus bow damage(if any), plus racial bonuses(elves get +1 THAC0 and +1 DMG with longbow, halflings get similar bonuses with sling), plus class(if Archer) bonuses. Strength bonus isn't applied when calculating the damage of a bow.

Longbows and Composite Bows seem to deal more damage than shortbows. Yet, this is not quite so. There isn't a single longbow which can hit an enemy who is immune to +3 and lower weapons, while the Short Bow of Gesen can, since its projectiles are considered +4. Moreover, if you equip the Short Bow of Gesen with ammo, it will deal both its normal damage and the equipped ammo damage(which is BTW an unfixed bug).
The Tuigan Bow, while only providing +1 bonuses, grants an extra attack(2 with improved haste), which is often far more essential than +2 or even +3 dmg and THAC0 bonus provided by the composite bows.

The Short Bow of Gesen is far more powerful compared to all the other bows in SoA(maybe with the exception of Tuigan Bow). But from pure damage perspective, the most powerful(most damage-dealing) bow is Strong Arm, since it's the only bow providing +3 DMG bonus.

Arrows and crossbow bolts all do the same amount of damage, whether enchanted or unenchanted. Arrows' damage is 1d6, quarrels' is 1d8. The enchantment on the missile improves only THAC0 and is also rellevant when determining a hit - it is not the bow enchantment that counts on hit, it is always the missile. So a +4 bow equipped with +2 arrows is considered of +2 enchantment when determining what it can hit.

So, overall, the long bows are not as useful as short bows, crossbows and slings. Especially in ToB.

Hi Saros

Thanks for the quick reply.

I have browsed thru the forum for all the debates on longbow vs shortbow.
And your reply seems to summarise it.

The most dmg-dealing weapon is Strong Arm.
It works better on mobs that doesn't require +3 or +4 to hit.
However, if facing these type of mobs, one has to switch weapons.

The most "powerful" weapon (based on all the other discussions) will be the Short Bow of Gesen.

Another few questions or suggestion:

1. U mentioned "you equip the Short Bow of Gesen with ammo, it will deal both its normal damage and the equipped ammo damag".
Can i confirm that this means it will no longer be considered a +4 weapon and will only work on mobs that doesn't require +4 to hit?
Therefore for it to be +4, i have to use it w/o ammo?

2. What about Tansheron's Bow +3?
Say if i were to use it with arrow +1, would it make any difference to normal mobs? From my understanding, it will no longer be considered a +3 weapon.

3. Please rate (1 is the best, 5 is the worst) which is the best in fights against mobs that doesn't need +3/+4 to hit.


Tuigan Bow +1
Arrow +1

Tansheron's Bow +3
no ammo

Tansheron's Bow +3
Arrow +1

Short Bow of Gesen
Arrow +1

Short Bow of Gesen
no ammo



In terms of roleplaying, people will feel that an elf archer ought to use longbow for the lore and its race bonus.
My take:
i am Elf and also archer, i should be using a longbow but the logic of the moment is that i will want the most powerful/useful equipment around so i can survive out there in the harsh world.
I would want to specalise in a ranged weapon that can take me thru everything.
I don't agree with folks who said i should honed my skills to grandmastery in longbow, use it for normal fights and then switch to +3/+4 melee-weapon or shortbow for BIG fights.
I am not comfortable with going into melee-combat as that is not i was trained to do.
I am also not comfortable with the idea of switching to a less proficient shortbow during BIG fights.
I would want something that i am very well-trained and familiar with, esp for the BIG fights.

Many Thanks!

Windour wrote:
1.Can i confirm that this means it will no longer be considered a +4 weapon and will only work on mobs that doesn't require +4 to hit?
Therefore for it to be +4, i have to use it w/o ammo?

2. What about Tansheron's Bow +3?
Say if i were to use it with arrow +1, would it make any difference to normal mobs? From my understanding, it will no longer be considered a +3 weapon.

3. Please rate (1 is the best, 5 is the worst) which is the best in fights against mobs that doesn't need +3/+4 to hit.


Tuigan Bow +1
Arrow +1

Tansheron's Bow +3
no ammo

Tansheron's Bow +3
Arrow +1

Short Bow of Gesen
Arrow +1

Short Bow of Gesen
no ammo

1. I don't know since I never really liked missile weapons. When I use one, it is usually the Tuigan bow with Arrows of Dispelling on dragons or enemy mages. But my guess is that the projectiles in this case are considered +4 AND normal - like 2 hits.

2. Don't know. I usually carry the Tansheron Bow in my pack and use it only vs Adamantine Golems in the planar sphere. After that it doesn't get out of the Bag of Holding. But my guess is that it will be considered +1 if you equip a +1 arrow.

3. There is no 'best' missile weapon. For instance, if you want an accurate and powerful hit, your first weapon of choice should be the Heartseeker. If you want powerful hits and your THAC0 is low enough already, go for Strong Arm. And if you want quick shots go for Tuigan. All of these might be helpful in different situations(plus don't forget that the Heartseeker bonus +7 to thac0 is also applied if you intend to use a melee weapon). Besides, +1 arrows are crap. There are too many enemies immune to +1 and less weapons. Equip yourself with +2 arrows, arrows of biting, arrows of ice, acid arrows, and instead of +1 arrows - arrows of piercing(also considered +1 but with +4 thac0 bonus and chance of additional damage). But I'm going to disappoint you. Some enemies are immune to missile type damage, and most mages run Protection from Normal Missiles + ProMagicalWeapons, thus making themselves immune to all missile fire. Some Dragons, like Abazigal, for instance. But in a party, that really doesn't matter that much as long as you don't depend on your Archer to carry out all battles for you. He's a supportive fighter rather than a tank or anything.

A 15th level archer receives +5 damage to every bow hit. The tuigan bow will do more damage than any other bow in the game because of this, because it grants an extra attack (and hence an extra 8 damage if you include grand mastery). This extra attack is also very useful when using called shots. This will only increase as you continue leveling up.

The problem is that some beasties will require +3 and +4 arrows. Switching to the gesen or tansheron bow for those creatures seems fine to me. That means using short bows, because if you don't want to melee, longbows will sinply not give you any results in those situations.

I of course agree that Short Bows are way better than Long Bows, but only becasuse of Gesen. Otherwise, the maximum attacks per round may be no more than five(10 with Improved Haste), so a 13th lvl Archer, with True Grandmastery Tweak, ***** in Long Bows, and Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, will anyway have his 5 APR with any longbow. So after that only damage will decide which is the best ranged weapon, and Strong Arm will take its place without question. Plus, an Elf will have additional bonus with it. But unfortunately, the ammo isn't sufficient to last long...

Actually Gesen with ammo equipped outdoes all other missile weapons in damage output.
Another one to consider is the sling of everard as it adds strength bonuses to damage similar to throwing axes and hammers.

Saros wrote: with True Grandmastery Tweak, ***** in Long Bows, and Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization,

The gauntlets I'd rather give to someone who does a lot of damage (let's say 25 STR?) with his/her attacks, and I consider the "True grandmastery tweak" to be the "true grandmastery cheat". Because of those points, I cannot agree with you. Which is fine I suppose.

Bruce Lee wrote:Actually Gesen with ammo equipped outdoes all other missile weapons in damage output.
Another one to consider is the sling of everard as it adds strength bonuses to damage similar to throwing axes and hammers.

I think the G3 fixpack fixes the bug with Gesen's Short Bow,and definitely fixes the bug with Sling of Everard adding str bonus to the dmg. Besides, slings are an APR behind a bow or crossbow, and an Archer cannot attain more than ** in slings, and in Axes and Daggers only *. A throwing axe is indeed the best missile weapon available, because of the great damage output and the ability to hold a shield in the off-hand, but not to an Archer, rather to a Warrior kit with grandmastery in axes and great strength. But the bows are invaluable thanx to the special ammo, most importantly Arrows of Dispelling.

Crossbow is on the same APR as sling, one behind long and shortbows.
You cannot equip shields with throwing axes but you can with slings.
It is hard to know which modifications to take into account when answering questions so I assume a patched game only. In a patched game Gesens bow is far superior to any other missile weapon.

Bruce Lee wrote: You cannot equip shields with throwing axes but you can with slings.

In an unmodded game it is possible to equip throwing axes and a shield (which my first main character did )

Ah yes sorry my bad, you can of course. I was thinking of dual wielding with one of the thrown weapons which isnt possible.