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What do you think about him and why?
I personally think he's an idiot because of the way talks and presents himself and his stances on issues.

...and I though our Bundeskanzler was stupid...ehehehe...

You know, there was another American president who had similar accusations waged against him. Upon entering office was called "an ape", "the missing link", and a "backwoods bumpkin". Many criticized him for his lack of refinement, his folksy common manner of speech, and his clumsy mannerisms. His policies were also vigorously attacked. But this man went on to be a fairly effective leader. His name was Abraham Lincoln.

Bush is just a status symbol... he doesn't affect how American works.

He has teams of guys making up speeches, and govourment boards to deal with Nation Affairs.

A bit like the British Monarchy really.

Bush is just the ambassador, a symbol of the American Country.... and even then he isn't a good one .

Originally posted by Kayless:
<STRONG> But this man went on to be a fairly effective leader. His name was Abraham Lincoln.</STRONG>

?
Who's this??

Please tell me your joking.

Yeah! What did that beard do?

I here most people blabbin' on about him and what has the beared bloke done?

Did he invent Monopoly?

Originally posted by Kayless:
<STRONG>Please tell me your joking.</STRONG>

:: scratches his head :: Ummm...did he invent the electric light bulb?

Crikey! Lincoln is best known as the president during the American Civil War, and issued the Emancipation Proclamation that freed black slaves. His Gettysburg’s Address is one of the best speeches in recent history.

Biography
Abraham Lincoln warned the South in his Inaugural Address: "In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The government will not assail you.... You have no oath registered in Heaven to destroy the government, while I shall have the most solemn one to preserve, protect and defend it."
Lincoln thought secession illegal, and was willing to use force to defend Federal law and the Union. When Confederate batteries fired on Fort Sumter and forced its surrender, he called on the states for 75,000 volunteers. Four more slave states joined the Confederacy but four remained within the Union. The Civil War had begun.
The son of a Kentucky frontiersman, Lincoln had to struggle for a living and for learning. Five months before receiving his party's nomination for President, he sketched his life:
"I was born Feb. 12, 1809, in Hardin County, Kentucky. My parents were both born in Virginia, of undistinguished families--second families, perhaps I should say. My mother, who died in my tenth year, was of a family of the name of Hanks.... My father ... removed from Kentucky to ... Indiana, in my eighth year.... It was a wild region, with many bears and other wild animals still in the woods. There I grew up.... Of course when I came of age I did not know much. Still somehow, I could read, write, and cipher ... but that was all."
Lincoln made extraordinary efforts to attain knowledge while working on a farm, splitting rails for fences, and keeping store at New Salem, Illinois. He was a captain in the Black Hawk War, spent eight years in the Illinois legislature, and rode the circuit of courts for many years. His law partner said of him, "His ambition was a little engine that knew no rest."
He married Mary Todd, and they had four boys, only one of whom lived to maturity.
In 1858 Lincoln ran against Stephen A. Douglas for Senator. He lost the election, but in debating with Douglas he gained a national reputation that won him the Republican nomination for President in 1860.
As President, he built the Republican Party into a strong national organization. Further, he rallied most of the northern Democrats to the Union cause.
On January 1, 1863, he issued the Emancipation Proclamation that declared forever free those slaves within the Confederacy.
Lincoln never let the world forget that the Civil War involved an even larger issue. This he stated most movingly in dedicating the military cemetery at Gettysburg: "that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain--that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom--and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
Lincoln won re-election in 1864, as Union military triumphs heralded an end to the war. In his planning for peace, the President was flexible and generous, encouraging Southerners to lay down their arms and join speedily in reunion.
The spirit that guided him was clearly that of his Second Inaugural Address, now inscribed on one wall of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D. C.:
"With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds.... "
On Good Friday, April 14, 1865, Lincoln was assassinated at Ford's Theatre in Washington by John Wilkes Booth, an actor, who somehow thought he was helping the South. The opposite was the result, for with Lincoln's death, the possibility of peace with magnanimity died.

THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this
continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the
proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in
a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so
conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great
battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of
that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their
lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and
proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot
dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground.
The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated
it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will
little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never
forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be
dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here
have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here
dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these
honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which
they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly
resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this
nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that
government of the people, by the people, for the people shall
not perish from the earth.


This letter became very well known in 1998 after its use in the film Saving Private Ryan. It was written by Abraham Lincoln at the request of the Governor of Massachusetts to a Boston mother who had lost five sons in combat. The letter was delivered on November 25, 1864. The message today stands as a valued expression of love of country and as a monument in American literature.

Executive Mansion, Washington, November 21, 1864.
Mrs. Bixby, Boston, Massachusetts:
Dear Madam: I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the Adjutant-General of Massachusetts that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle. I feel how weak and fruitless must be any words of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering to you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the Republic they died to save. I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom.
Yours very sincerely and respectfully,
Abraham Lincoln.

Whew! Anybody know who he is now?

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]

Originally posted by Kayless:
<STRONG>You know, there was another American president who had similar accusations waged against him. Upon entering office was called "an ape", "the missing link", and a "backwoods bumpkin". Many criticized him for his lack of refinement, his folksy common manner of speech, and his clumsy mannerisms. His policies were also vigorously attacked. But this man went on to be a fairly effective leader. His name was Abraham Lincoln.</STRONG>

1) Lincoln wrote his own speeches. Bush reads what's prepared for him.

2) Lincoln was called an "ape" by two parties: the South, and Southern sympathizers in the North. The disgust of Bush is not geographically founded, or (in many cases) even politically founded.

3) Criticisms of Lincoln's speech centered around his constant recourse to humorous stories as illustrations, but no one doubted that he understood exactly what he was saying. There are strong and reasonable doubts about Bush's understanding the notes he's been given to read.

4) Lincoln wasn't ever accused of being clumsy, but lacking refinement, because his family was literally dirt poor: what would be called in some quarters, "poor white trash," today. Bush has never been accused of lacking refinement, since he was raised by multi-millionaires, and lived in the lap of luxury all his life.

5) I would also add that Lincoln was the consummate compromiser, always trying to find a win/win situation so that everybody went home with something--except where treason (as he defined it) was concerned. There are many, many recorded instances of this. By contrast, Bush, although a very nice guy, is utterly opposed to compromise on any grounds. Even if he has 49% of the Congress against him on a given issue, he will grab all he can get, and has repeatedly done so. He doesn't want opponents to feel bad, but he will not give an inch if he can help it. Lincoln was a political realist; Bush is an idealogue.

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Haha, j/k...even we Germans at least know the name George Washington...

One more fact about Lincoln which Bush lacks. Lincoln was diagnosed recently as suffering from Morphan's Syndrome, a condition which results in an elongated skeletal structure, dilation of the aorta, and early death. Rather ironic, that: had he escaped the assassin's bullet, chances are he wouldn't have lived another ten years.

Bush is for the death penalty, which I belive is somthing that should be abolised.
To tell you the true I'm pretty pissed at America ( the country not the people) right now because the CIA and British Int. ran a little fundraiser over in columbia.
They damaged the peace proccess in Northern Ireland badly by doing this.Bastards.
Get this 3 IRA bombers went to columbia and to train FARC in bomb making.
The CIA and British int. knew this since the begining of the year and did nothing until it would hurt the peace treaty most and hence shouts of " Oh my God we need to put more money into Intelligence gathering"
Bit long to go into here in all the messy job they did of pretending they didn't know the IRA bombers had travelled to columbia.
Surfice to say that columbia showed they had satillite pictures of these guys, ages before the were arrested, from the Int groups then denied having them at all later.
Several other little things like the fact that these guys were identified as IRA memebers and not arrested straigth away add to this, now columbia is using this terror to pass new laws.
So in the end British int and CIA closer together, Bush recongisned as an admirer of Britain, some In British politics moving for closer ties to US rather than Europe( never happen) curreny coming in their going to have a few probs later.
Besides the US stores its Eclehon system in the UK.
Bloody hell this is like somthing out of Deus Ex rahter than anything I would expect in real life .

Anyway thatsmy rant, please let me just be paranoid .

There is absolutely no comparison, IMO, between Mr. Bush and Mr. Lincoln. Mr. Lincoln was called an ape due to his lack of refinement and the fact he didn't come from the "right family". Mr. Bush, IMO, is just plain stupid, has very few good ideas, is clearly in the pockets of the Gun Lobby, Tobacco Lobby, etc. I'll stop now before I get into a serious rant and just keep dreaming about impeaching him.

Originally posted by Word:
<STRONG>I personally think he's an idiot because of the way talks and presents himself</STRONG>

I pay absolutely no attention to politics or any of that shlit. Thus, I don't know anything about anything Bush has done as President and I don't care to know. However, if "the way (he?) talks" is his accent, I will hunt you down and shoot you, as well as do many other unpleasent things to you.

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>I pay absolutely no attention to politics or any of that ****. Thus, I don't know anything about anything Bush has done as President and I don't care to know. However, if "the way (he?) talks" is his accent, I will hunt you down and shoot you, as well as do many other unpleasent things to you. </STRONG>

It is what he says and the way he says it, it has nothing to do with where he is from or how he talks.

Shooting

So Sailor Saturn I take it you don't like politics then?

Originally posted by justAidan:
<STRONG>So Sailor Saturn I take it you don't like politics then? </STRONG>

*shrugs* I don't really have an opinion on politics and I plan on keeping it that way for a while. I just kinda ignore it.

Dubya is in the middle of a month-long vacation in Crawford, Texas. A month is excessive if you ask me.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>1) Lincoln wrote his own speeches. Bush reads what's prepared for him.</STRONG>

Very true. I am amazed at Lincoln's writing skills, since he had less than a year of formal schooling and it's unclear when exactly he learned how to read and write. He didn't even learn polished grammar until he was in his twenties. And yet he obviously improved himself and learned how to become a great writer.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>2) Lincoln was called an "ape" by two parties: the South, and Southern sympathizers in the North. The disgust of Bush is not geographically founded, or (in many cases) even politically founded.</STRONG>

Most of the people I've met who have the deepest dislike for Bush are liberals/Democrats. I've not met any Republicans and only one Reform party member who had only moderate objections to the president. In my personal experience anti-Bush sentiments directly equate to anticonservatism and is in fact politically motivated. Of course your mileage may vary in relation to your own experiences.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG> 3) Criticisms of Lincoln's speech centered around his constant recourse to humorous stories as illustrations, but no one doubted that he understood exactly what he was saying. There are strong and reasonable doubts about Bush's understanding the notes he's been given to read.</STRONG>

I think Bush is a poor public speaker, not mentally deficient. Many of the times he’s been on television he’s displayed a nervous laugh and seems a little uncomfortable. I used to work in the theatre and have seen many other actors with similar symptoms of stage fright. It’s a definite liability for a politician, but since he at least tries to get past it I give him points for effort.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG> 4) Lincoln wasn't ever accused of being clumsy, but lacking refinement, because his family was literally dirt poor: what would be called in some quarters, "poor white trash," today. Bush has never been accused of lacking refinement, since he was raised by multi-millionaires, and lived in the lap of luxury all his life.</STRONG>

I know of at least one reporter who described Lincoln as clumsy (I’ll have to go through my old books to look for the exact quote) though I'm sure that it wasn't justified (like most of the slurs). But it wasn't just his roots they mocked, it his gangly appearance as well. Which to me is just as mean spirited as mocking someone who blows a line.

I was in a play once with another actor who stuttered when he was nervous. Usually he was great, but in our second performance (opening night is usually terrific, the second day is the one you have to watch out for) he forgot a line. He would have been fine, except that someone in the audience made a smart-ass remark that triggered a stuttering fit. We had to find a way to subtly work his character out of the scene until he regained his cool (it was a nightmare figuring out how). He was fine for the next scene as well as the rest of the play, but it was still a malicious thing for that audience member to do. I guess this experience has colored my views, but I always get angry when people mock another for blowing a line (which is what most Bush jokes and criticisms seem to focus on).

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG> 5) I would also add that Lincoln was the consummate compromiser, always trying to find a win/win situation so that everybody went home with something--except where treason (as he defined it) was concerned. There are many, many recorded instances of this. By contrast, Bush, although a very nice guy, is utterly opposed to compromise on any grounds. Even if he has 49% of the Congress against him on a given issue, he will grab all he can get, and has repeatedly done so. He doesn't want opponents to feel bad, but he will not give an inch if he can help it. Lincoln was a political realist; Bush is an idealogue.
</STRONG>

I thought Bush's recent descion of human Stem Cell research was a pretty fair comprimise. W hasn't really been in office long enough to do anything really great or really stupid. I'd would have prefered John McCain to Bush but I'm willing to give him a chance.