GameBanshee Forums

Im trying to figure out a well built assassin.

I'm looking for something that doesn't use 21ranger/9assassin. also I'm not much of a buffer so it's limited, what I would use to maintain fighter prowess.

maybe this ist for you:

Earth Genasi
evil alignment (but needs 'good path' at the docks in OC)
(creation)
Str: 18
Dex:14
Con:16
Int: 16
Wis:06
Cha:06
always pump Str. at lvl-up
Weapon: Falcion (taking feats to impr. ab)

Rogue 5
Assasin 10
Black Guard 10 (Requirements: Pwr. Attack and Cleave)
NWN 5

HIPS
Impr. Knockdown (via taking the feats)

hoping to give you 13D6 sneak damage via the special Falcion that overcomes immunity to crit/?sneak?

*for testing purpose one could replace NWN 5 with FB 7 (reducing Assassin to 8) -> less sneak 10D6 but BAB26 (great cleave feat to be taken); should be fun if you catch a group offguard cleaving for 2times 10d6^^

Finally a thread where I can post this fully..

Assassins are of "dubious" worth IMO.

The concept itself is cool, but the execution of the class is poor.

Conceptually its all about that first attack.. and perhaps the 2nd or even 3rd if magically enhanced with Hast etc. and Improved Initiative, and Blooded or Thug (also for the improvement in initiative) - and at very high levels perhaps Epic Two-Weapon Fighting. It is NOT an "attack of opportunity" character - at least not anymore than any other sneak attack class.

Whats good about them:

1. Death Attack's paralysis feature - if "hit" effectively making all subsequent attacks sneak attack damage IF the opponent can be sneak attacked.

2. HiPS at 8th level.

3. Its a prestige class, so no XP point penalty possible.

4. Its a prestige class WITH the potential for HiPS AND Sneak Attack damage.


Whats bad about them:

1. Death Attack's paralysis feature is a *fortitude* saved based on your *Assassin* level and your Intelligence bonus. The computation is 10 + Assassin level + Intelligence bonus.

a. first note that it is a *fortitude* save, while this bodes well against spell casters who usually have a pitiful fortitude, its bad against strong melee-type opponents - opponents which actually compromise more than 95% of the game! Additionally consider which opponent-type you really want it to work on - a spell caster who has fewer hit-points or a melee-type who has a lot?

b. second - the save is level dependent, of course so are most opponents. Roughly speaking this means that it never really gets better even as you climb in level, and of course as a result that means its not very good when you do start accumulating levels. Its also a prestige class and you can't start accumulating levels really early when it would provide its greatest advantage against weaker *fortitude* opponents. (note that character level 6 is the *earliest* possible time you could select this class, at this level you may well have 2 or 3 character levels where the paralysis seems to work better, but it won't be for very long and that doesn't include the fact that your ability to become Stealth is usually weaker at this stage of development.)

Then follow-up with the now obvious detriment - that you need as ***many*** class levels as possible to really make Death Attack's paralysis to work for your character.

c. third - the bonus is based on an Intelligence modifier! Who in He!! makes an Intelligence-based rogue-type character? Most rogue-types are struggling just to HIT their opponents because of the medium BAB. So they will usually take Weapon Finesse and up Dexterity to its max-potential at the exclusion of all other attributes. The reality is: there isn't any real room for gains in Intelligence - even attribute enhancing items are generally eschewed in favor of Dexterity and Constitution enhancing items.

..the net result of all of this is that EVEN IF YOU:

Have 10 levels of Assassin (plus your base 10), AND

Have an enhanced Intelligence netting 20.

That leaves you with a *TOP* save value of 25.

Then factor in that the save can still fail on a roll of a 20.

IMO this is not a feature you can count-on at *any* level - and thats kinda' the point of an Assassin! I.E. that you can count on at least most of the time making your Paralysis feature work against that one opponent. The real "work" should be getting into to make the attack in the first place and then getting out alive - and that problem is still *very* much in place.

(..yes, your opponent can also role a "1", and if they likely don't have epic resilience then they will fail their save and be paralyzed, but again: it certainly isn't something you can count on.)

..and if that wasn't bad enough.

2. Death Attack's paralysis feature is ALSO dependent on an opponent that can be sneak attacked! If its immune to criticals or sneak attack then forget it working. And NO, Epic Precision does NOT make an opponent Death Attack-able. Epic Precision ONLY passes through HALF your sneak attack damage, your Death Attack's paralysis feature does NOT work with it.

..worse still.

3. Death Attack's Paralysis only has the chance of working if your opponent is not in combat mode. Practically speaking this means that you have that one chance to get a Paralysis hit. It is truly what you would think of as a Sneak Attack. The problem of course is that its use is severely limited, but frankly not in a manner you would ordinarily take exception to (..excepting all the other cr@ppy limitations that are NOT apparent).

..but wait, there is more!

4. Death Attack's Paralysis pretty much works *only* with a melee attack. Supposedly you can attack with a ranged weapon with in a 30 foot range of the opponent, but I haven't gotten that to work. Want a sniper character? Look else where.

Ok then, enough about Death Attack's worthless nature..

5. HiPS requires an 8 level expenditure. Umm, a Shadow Dancer only requires *1* level to get HiPS - you do the math. Now it is true that a Shadow Dancer ALSO requires two feats: Dodge and Mobility.. BUT almost any one crafting a HiPS *usable* character will require the feat Spring Attack (..and yup, that requires Dodge and Mobility). A Shadow Dancer also requires 2 more points in Hide than an Assassin, but again - for HiPS to have any real chance of working well it *needs* a high stealth character.

..

Note that NONE of the above is to say that the class is worthless, but rather that in most instances a standard Rogue with one level of Shadow Dancer is at *least* as good.

(..note that a higher level Rogue has SEVERAL real advantages over an Assassin. That and perhaps the use of a Warlock may be a much better - alternatives that I might delve into next here..)

I think if you have 8 levels free you can take assassin which will save 2 feats. Spring attack is not necessary for an assassin with tumble 30.

Death attack paralysis is not the point of an assassin. The point is HIPS and sneak attack dice. Aside from taking Assassin 8 there is also the option of taking Assassin 2 on a non-HIPS char to take uncanny dodge but thats actually bugged I think anyhow. Shadowdancer 2 also gives uncanny dodge but the whole problem with shadowdancer is that dodge/mobility/spring attack are crap to a tumble 30 character.

Claudius wrote:I think if you have 8 levels free you can take assassin which will save 2 feats. Spring attack is not necessary for an assassin with tumble 30.

Death attack paralysis is not the point of an assassin. The point is HIPS and sneak attack dice. Aside from taking Assassin 8 there is also the option of taking Assassin 2 on a non-HIPS char to take uncanny dodge but thats actually bugged I think anyhow. Shadowdancer 2 also gives uncanny dodge but the whole problem with shadowdancer is that dodge/mobility/spring attack are crap to a tumble 30 character.

Yes, a very high tumble can in fact replace Spring Attack under most conditions. But when do you get a very high tumble?

Is it 10? Is it 15? 20? 33 works great, and I've rarely ever been hit with a 30.. but 10? Nope. Nor 15. Probably not 20 either to ensure not getting hit.

Then we have Death Attack Paralysis..

Sorry, Death Attack Paralysis *IS* the point of an Assassin.

Its all about Killing *ONE* opponent fairly quickly, thats what an Assassin does.

Paralysis provides that means by piggy-backing off of Sneak Attack damage. It "allows" continuous Sneak Attack damage until the opponent is dead.

This doesn't mean that you can't use the class as you have suggested, but rather that it isn't really an Assassin.

But even here we have a minor problem.. Just what is the point of having a HiPS character with limited Sneak Attack Damage and a poor to non-existent paralysis feature? This isn't to say that HiPS doesn't have utility, but rather that its utility is considerably lessened UNLESS you have a lot more sneak attack damage available - and that usually means a Rogue. Then you have to ask your self if a Rogue wouldn't be better with one level of Shadow Dancer..

(..note of course that HiPS can be employed in a disabling fashion via Knockdown and Disarm.. but Knockdown is Strength checked and Disarm is Attack Bonus checked, neither of which would make sense with 8+ level's of Assassin - which is a medium BAB class not likely to be employed in a "Strength-type" character.)

Hmm, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge - I'd forgotten about those. Yes, I would concede utility with both feats. Rogue-types need to retain their Dex. bonus for AC, and though rare and IF the character is principally a Rogue-type character then the non-flanked Sneak Attack removal is very nice.

I can kind of see your point that assassin is not a great class. But it does have its uses in a few builds. Assassin 8 is much better than shadowdancer 8 for example although shadowdancer 1 (7 extra levels to put in other classes) is better yet assuming you can fit in the dodge and mobility. And if you want sneak attack with a shadowdancer better have some rogue in too (or something).

That being said I stand by the statement "the point of assassin is not death paralysis". Refer to your first post for the reasons :mischief: You made it quite clear that death attack was poop on a stick and the only point is to see if someone will throw a 1. That is why it is not the main event of an assassin. An assassin HIPs then DA then rinse and repeat. Hopefully they have some other tricks.

Indeed assassin is not the power PVP class of say an RDD or SD for that matter but in NWN2 for going OC/MoTB you are allowed a lot more diversity. If you want to play an assassin or spirit shaman then go for it. You can do that.

Claudius wrote:
That being said I stand by the statement "the point of assassin is not death paralysis". Refer to your first post for the reasons :mischief: You made it quite clear that death attack was poop on a stick and the only point is to see if someone will throw a 1. That is why it is not the main event of an assassin. An assassin HIPs then DA then rinse and repeat. Hopefully they have some other tricks.

No, it *is* the main "event" of an assassin, its just that its FUBAR'ed by Atari.

And its not the only class that is FUBAR'ed either. Nor is it the worst of these types of classes, not by a long shot.

No, there are 2 major points:

1. is that when most people select this class they are looking for an actual assassin, but they aren't going to get it (at least not for most of the game if at all).

2. is that in most instances you are better off utilizing other classes than this one. Not *always*, but almost always - particularly with in the context of the OC and MOTB.

Still, as far as utility is concerned it is NOT a bad class - it just isn't a particularly good class and there are often better alternatives.

I'll try and come up with a better *viable* alternative latter on today for an example.

Ok I see your point I don't play pen and paper I am just going by what is effective in atari's game version of an assassin.

..after doing some analysis,

Its what I suspected when I created the Hidden Dragon and Hitman builds..

That Sneak Attack Damage at almost any level does not provide enough damage in comparison to a Higher Strength character with the FB's power attack enhancing features. Even with Improved Power Attack on this character generally has a better ability to hit as well.

I do however have an idea for an actual Assassin similar to, but slightly different, than the above builds.:mischief:

I'm making an assassin character.
Rogue 16/Assassin9/InvisBlade5, Assassin and Invisible Blade get their highest sneak attack at those levels and rogue gets its third bonus feat thus allowing Epic Dodge and the feat that lets you sneak attack enemies that are normally immune to it.

bushwhacker2k wrote:I'm making an assassin character.
Rogue 16/Assassin9/InvisBlade5, Assassin and Invisible Blade get their highest sneak attack at those levels and rogue gets its third bonus feat thus allowing Epic Dodge and the feat that lets you sneak attack enemies that are normally immune to it.

This is a very good example of where a Rogue/Shadow Dancer/Invisible Blade is better than the above.

Even considering the expenditure for Mobility and Dodge, the Rogue with 24 levels has at least as many net feats.

Better still the feats allow access to more of the better Rogue-only feats. Also, these additional feats are during Epic levels.

A Rogue 5 to Assassin 8 nets you your Hide in Plain Sight (at level 13), conversely a Rogue 7 to Shadow Dancer 8 nets you Hide in Plain Sight at level 8 - 5 levels sooner.

A Rogue has DOUBLE the number of skill points per level AND access to more skills.

There is a penalty of -1 to your BAB however.

BTW, with Feint (and the Invisible Blade's "Feint Mastery") - you generally have a better chance of "scoring" Sneak Attacks *without* "hiding" than you do with Death Attack's Paralysis. The two in practice are similar, but paralysis does have the advantage of both offensive and defensive qualities.

Feint often works well by providing Sneak Attacks during the "down-time" for your next "hide" with HiPS. It really depends on the opponents though, AND it depends on your Bluff skill - so Bluff needs to be pumped as high and as often as possible. Note that if you are using Feint then its likely that the typical "run-away" and hide is not occurring, thus potential attacks of opportunity are decreased dramatically. HiPS is still better (you'll net more attacks with it), but during the 5 second down-time (cool-down) of Hiding you can usually *try* about 3 Feints before hiding again.

I tested out these two types in Vordans and Battle of the Builds. For Vordan's - no problem, but for most opponents in Battle of the Builds it didn't go well for either build.

Still, both should be good and fun characters for the OC and MOTB.

I would just like to see if anyone had a great assassin character. I find the concept appealling like most ppl do and if there was an assassin build which could just barely stand toe to toe with some of the best builds then it would be worth it. The best assassin build I've come across so far is the 21ranger/1assassin/1wiz/7AA with 2 one shot feats. When your one shot doesn't take your foe out, then you can try many shots with death attack DC out from stealth.

you'd have to use the DA/manyshots first. Once they are aware of you no more chance of paralysis.

not quite. I will use the 2 one shots in first combat round. If the person hasn't died yet, then I run out of combat into stealth. Immediately after I have begun stealthing he will prolly heal himself. In that time, I can easily get many shot DA in on him.

I've done a "One Shot" character before..

I've NEVER gotten more than *1* One Shot in a 60 second period. I have gotten 2 hits with that One Shot however with Improved Rapid Shot.

IMO One Shot doesn't provide nearly enough damage and with that 60 second cool-down its use is questionable at best. I.E. it sounds cool, in practice it isn't.

Additionally One Shot can be "blocked" with a High Parry. It can also be "dodged" with Epic Dodge.

I've also tried to get paralysis out of Death Attack via a bow, and haven't managed that either. Even Sneak Attack Damage must be within 30 feet, and that isn't much in this game.

Then add-in the fact that bows and arrows are un-enchantable in this game and as a result are FAR poorer at damage than melee weapons.

A high Dexterity Perfect Two-Weapon Rogue 24/SD 1/Invisible Blade 5, is a LOT more powerful.

..a few interesting facts on Damage.

The highest Damage in-game possible with one hit is from a Paladin 20/Divine Champion 10 with Very High Charisma and 10X Great Smite, AND scoring a critical. Unfortunately thats only against evil opponents using Smite Evil.

The second highest amount of damage in-game possible with one hit is from a Weapon Master (7) with Overwhelming Critical and scoring a critical with a Scythe. Unfortunately a Scythe has much less of a chance of scoring a critical than say a Falchion.

A Ranger's Favored Power Attack does NOT stack with a Frenzied Berserker's Empowered and Supreme Power Attack damages in a "favorable" manner. Instead you get 2X or 3X (depending on one handed weapon or 2-handed weapon) off of the original amount of the Power Attack or Improved Power Attack damage.. and THEN the FB's Empowered or Supreme Damage is added. The calculation for a two-handed weapon with Improved Power Attack and Supreme Power Attack (and against a Favored Enemy with Favored Power Attack), would be: +6 X 3 = 18 + 24 = 42 of additional Power Attack damage. (*not* 3 X 24 = 72 like you would expect.)

Me and my friend tested the 2 One Shot feats. It works with both feats in 1 round of atking. Each arrow did 90 dmg on a balor which was one of our favored enemies.

Valkos wrote:Me and my friend tested the 2 One Shot feats. It works with both feats in 1 round of atking. Each arrow did 90 dmg on a balor which was one of our favored enemies.

I get it now. One Shot with Dexterity and One Shot with Ranger.. cool!

90 damage in one round isn't very much for such an "epic" character.

My Hitman build (at level 30) can average something close to 200 in *half* a round WITHOUT anything but a +8 enhancement modifier on the weapon. And thats without getting a critical.:mischief:

(..and yes, it was expressly designed to be a true Assassin.. but with a lot more melee functionality.)

A perfect two-weapon high sneak attack character like I mentioned before can do a little more damage but without nearly as good a net attack number (so its FAR more opponent sensitive to its success). The real perk with this character though is doubling-up on the additional elemental damage enchanted into a weapon.

The test included +4 arrows from AA, FEs and bane, +1 dmg from str and 1d6 acid arrows.

Fair to say, that any melee using +8 weapons is not just a little something. That is HUGE! Low magic servers offers nearly no magic items and the ranger here does a lot more dmg, than your true assassin could do without the +8 weapon.

Valkos wrote:The test included +4 arrows from AA, FEs and bane, +1 dmg from str and 1d6 acid arrows.

Fair to say, that any melee using +8 weapons is not just a little something. That is HUGE! Low magic servers offers nearly no magic items and the ranger here does a lot more dmg, than your true assassin could do without the +8 weapon.

Actually the +8 is one of the lesser sources of damage.. perhaps comprising 20%. Make the weapon a +4 enhancement, it won't change the net damage a great deal. I will concede however that the quote I was giving you was a "buffed" level 30 character.. No spells other than Haste.. but there was that Storm Giant belt..

As far as actually what works and what doesn't.. try it out for yourself in Vordan's Hero Creator. It won't take you long and will give you a better idea and give you the ability to make a fair comparison.

Here is the "build":

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/never ... 98338.html

Oh, and remember to use the character as suggested! (..thats mostly in the linked Hidden Dragon Build.)