Character Builds and Magic vs. Melee

[Cionaoith]

I'm starting this topic to avert the hijacking of the Screenshots thread.

it looks like you picked demon steel instead of demon spell, i am curious as to why.

Maybe because he's playing a fighting character and doesn't use the (really lame) bargain cheat to clone the cataclysm 5000 times? Guess what, my minimum urgoth character also went for steel instead of spell. Cataclysm is way too expensive to "clone" without the bargain bug and requires a ton of points into Arcane Magic or else its damage output isn't good enough, while the blade of death always does at least 11-27 damage (more if you have high strength) and has the chance of criticaling monsters for an instant kill.

Exactly. In fact, right now, his strength is 105, and I might take it as high as 150. That guy's build is Fighter/Imperial-Adept/Paladin/Crusader. It only makes sense to go with Demon Steel. I've got plenty of celestial and rune magic if I need it. For a melee character, Divine Intervention is much more useful than Cataclysm (and melee is more fun than simply casting a spell to kill everything in a mile radius, anyway).

I use bargain, but I don't exploit it, which I feel is the fine line between cheating and playing fair. It's different if you have a Rogue, or other character that has Steal, because cash is everywhere for them, but most of my characters struggle to make cash, so getting the most cash for things they don't need, and getting a good deal on things they do need is important.

well i do not know how you get that cataclysm's dmg output isnt all that great? unless you have lvl1 magic i dont know how it couldnt do under 27 dmg total (over all the waves combined). i have played around with a hacked character and the best melee dmg (with demon blade of charus) was 110 with blade of ball and beast turned on. i only have lvl 25 mage and 12 spell fire on another character and blast nova does that much let alone all 5 waves of cataclysm. also i dont like critical because it doesnt work as often as it should, i hacked skill to 99 fought monsters for an hour in the forbiden lands and only hit critical like 3 times all would have killed monster anyways and i was using no-dachi of night and katana of the sun as weapons to try and enhance the effect to no avail. so imo magic is still the way to go.

[Cionaoith]

A non-hacked file of a melee character (such as my Urgoth) does not have the Spellfire ability to increase Arcane efficiency. What he does have, is high strength, and learning bonuses for basic weaponry (and Rune and Celestial magic). Sure, a mage-based character could do much more damage, but there is little sense in making every character a "carbon copy".

Making a melee character, you do things that play to his strength. Give him skills that will make him more effective with his weapons, and give him more powerful weapons. Your strategy becomes reliant on melee skills and weapons, and it makes no sense to put effort into magic for which you receive no bonuses.

Given consideration that there is a glitch involved with Strike, I would imagine there are similar glitches for other abilities - particularly diabolical skills. This may be part of the problem you are having with Critical Strike (you've set the skill too high). Try it again at 10-15 (and 15 is likely the highest you'd ever manage to train it without cheating or cheesing).

Also, certain creatures have resistance or immunity to diabolical skills. Among these are bosses and creatures that could be used as mini-bosses (renegade demigoths, moonbeasts, giant trolls, etc.). If they have a resistance, you will likely be within 5 hits of killing them before you get a critical strike on them.

[Scottg]

Yup, sometimes you just want to play melee.. and sometimes you just want to play magic - depends on the mood, it is however completely a self-imposed restriction..you could have everything (and often do).

BTW, me thinks that blade of death is garbage.. BUT the polearm is nice from the "demon steel" selection, and utilizing it requires better technique than a greatsword (i.e. its often more fun once you get the particulars down).

For criticals..

Its almost exclusively relying on opponent level vs. character level.. BUT ninjitsu seems to get a very slight bonus on criticals (..irrespective of any class bonus). Basically the higher your character's level above your opponents, the better your chance of critical"ing". In other words its pretty much useless for anything but mobs of low-level opponents. I've never gotten a critical from a boss (don't know if they are immune or not), and I *think* some opponents are immune (or nearly) immune to it.

For spells:

Spellfire can be useful, but it needs to be near 9+, and it is dependent on the spell (and note that it can be *any* damaging spell). What *really* powers the damage of most spells is your skill score in a particular spell school (for that spell). THAT is something you can't get really high without several learning bonuses.. and of course that is something that is CLASS RESTRICTIVE. Note however that most spells don't need to have a lot of skill points to still be good, mostly their level or slightly better which most class combinations can achieve for most spells.

BTW, the best spell is Whirlwind followed by Rock Shards. While Cataclysm can be outrageously good.. it does require a LOT of skill points in Arcane to get that way (..10+spellfire helps too). Its also virtually impossible to get it to its minimum (no failure) level of 12 in arcane without at least 1 learning bonus in Arcane. Otherwise all its good for is clearing out the mob riff-raff, something a fighter-type with high level armor is good at anyway.. AND something that the same fighter could do with Blast Nova at Arcane level 8.

[terran698]

still like magic

well i will have to stay with mage and/or paladin because of the learning bonus's to nether, celestrial, and rune magic as they can make a poor melee character good by their buffs. boon armor, beast, the protection orbs etc... after that you still have a killer magic attack when you get bored with melee.

[galraen]

I've never gotten a critical from a boss (don't know if they are immune or not), and I *think* some opponents are immune (or nearly) immune to it.

Far too many opponents are immune to it to make it worth having. I've had a Ranger Lord who put insne amounts of SP into Hawkeye, no matter how many times (and we're talking hundreds here) I hit major opponents not one critical. It makes putting criticals into the game a pointless exercise unfortunately, so why did they bother in the first place. DL isn't the only game that has this flaw to be fair, mot do; Baldur's Gate had the same flaw, there's critical hits, but they make them useless against anyone wearing helmets (!!!???) then give every opponent helmets, friggin stupid!!

[Scottg]

. It makes putting criticals into the game a pointless exercise unfortunately, so why did they bother in the first place?

To balance the game for melee-*only* against mobs. A near continuous stream of low level opponents can actually be more difficult than a single boss with some occasional summons - and there are several examples of group spawn points in-game (demon realm, maze, etc..)

BTW, not only does ninjitsu give slightly superior results, but also dual-wield characters using exclusively katanas and wakizashi.

For most "boss-types" Inflict Wounds works exceptionally well, the problem however is that it is class restricted AND that the only other significant melee-only diabolic skill (Crushing Blow) is a Critical Strike substitute, NOT a substitute for Inflict Wounds (i.e. its worthless against boss-types).

This means that melee-only, from an offensive viewpoint, the Knight-to-Lord route is cr@p (..it can never achieve Inflict Wounds). Of course its tough to not get any magical learning bonuses.. so you always have some recourse, and the Lord's defensive Heraldry is the best you can get (..and pairs well with the Valkyrie class).

Still, NONE of the above represents the *worst* melee-only skill in the game.

No, that is reserved for BACKSTAB, which is nearly impossible to achieve and doesn't give a high enough damage bonus to even make it worth while. It *can* be fun to try and get a backstab (on humanoid opponents only), but for the most part its an exercise in frustration.

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BTW, me thinks that blade of death is garbage.. BUT the polearm is nice from the "demon steel" selection, and utilizing it requires better technique than a greatsword (i.e. its often more fun once you get the particulars down).

WHAT??? You mention the terms "blade of death" and "garbage" in the same sentence? My minimum urgoth character (one who never spent any advancement points) was kicking their ***** up and down with the blade of death! The polearm attacks way too slowly and cannot even do a critical hit (at least if the character doesn't have that skill), and the divine intervention takes hours to recharge, AND it also requires the (very class specific) heavy polearm skill to be useful... I would usually sell the polearm and buy more spellpower instead.

Landing a critical hit seems to become more likely the less health a target has remaining. A friend of mine told me about killing fire drakes with the first hit but I never had that happen. Even my ubermelee wylvan who had a ton and a half of critical strike (well, about 13 or 14 skill points, god was that expensive!) and very fast dual weapons had to whittle those dragons all the way down until they were out of HP, and I never landed a single critical hit.

[Cionaoith]

The most impressive critical strike I've ever landed was on a moonbeast with just over half its HP left. None of my characters have trained Critical Strike higher than 10 (if my memory serves - I lost my uber elf file, which is the one I'm talking about now), and he had the Golden Katana and Elven Bloodsword equipped (not a lot of help, I know). I can only guess that he had a better chance of hitting the critical simply because he was dual-wielding.

The Blade of Death is doing great things for my Urgoth, who doesn't have Critical Strike aside from the blade's 10% chance. Not only is it great for the critical strike chance, but for the damage rating. I haven't seen him do less than 25 damage since he was able to equip it without penalty.

I'm not a fan of polearms in most cases. Melee always ends up being within 6', so having the extra 1-2' reach is useless, especially for being so slow. I only have use for a pole if there are enemies stuck out of reach and I don't feel like using magic to dispatch them.

[Scottg]

For weapon preference I think it comes down to 2 things:

1. Damage + effects vs. opponent type, and

2. User finesse (a.k.a. *user* skill level) vs. weapon motion and range.

For mobs.. yes, the Blade of Death can be excellent.

The Blade of Death has excellent damage for a weapon, but its effect in general is often less useful (again, excepting low level mobs). Give me a No-Dachi of Winter *ANY* day over the the Blade of Death. Why? It simply has a *much* better effect against most opponents. The same can be said for the Sapphire Greatsword (which you can get earlier than the Blade of Death), and even the Diamondlight Greatsword (..where the various "strikes" can interrupt an opponents attack). Of course none of these alternatives have the same average damage.. but DEFENSIVELY they are vastly superior.

Then there is user skill and the weapon's physical range and speed, as well as its range of special attacks.

The special attacks for a single-handed weapon is the worst in the group.. by far. The best is Ninjitsu.. but it also requires the highest degree of user skill. Polearms (and even a lowly staff), has the second best. The third best is from two-weapon special attacks.

Which has the highest damage potential from a special attack?

A HEAVY POLEARM. Where you can often get damage (with a high strength) to around 50-100.

It is however slower, but not much - and if you test it out throughly (with a high degree of user skill for every weapon attack), you'll find that the overall "kill-rate" is pretty similar to Heavy weapons, Dual-Weapons, and Ninjitsu.. UNLESS you have another damage effect and are against low level opponents. (Note: one of the primary reasons why the kill-rate is fairly comparable with polearms is because you will often hit more opponents in a single attack maneuver, OR if against a single opponent - can hit for a higher rate of damage per attack.)

Adding in effects however:

The highest melee "kill-rate" (by far) is dual weapons katana (or No-Dachi) and wakizashi with both critical strike and inflict wounds. Offensively this makes the Hatamoto SUPREME (..the thing is a blender :mischief .

[Slider051870]

As far as criticals go you really need to use the eastern house guilds to advance the skill I have had fairly good luck with my samauri/hatamoto character and built his critical up to lvl 8 so far you come up with a lot more critical hits when u get mobbed by lesser NPC's Although as far as I can tell bosses and boss type NPC's are immune to critical damage but not to the bleeding wounds diabolic of the samauri side to the character

and there is a much better weapon than the katana for dual weilding thats the totemic rune mace which has the 40%stun capability plus with higher strengths ive seen it do a fair amount of damage to opponents especially in mob situations

[terran698]

mace?

i know what mace your talking about but some katana's have a fair amount more dmg than the mace your talking about. i dont know why dl did not have the option for dual heavy weapons (like d2) and only make them stat requirement not skill requirement. the 40%stun is nice but if you take the mob out with a critical then stun is basically worthless. i guess its just my fighting style "kill em b4 they get to you and worry if they dont die".

[Cionaoith]

I haven't been able to find a one-handed heavy weapon yet. If there aren't at least two of them, dual heavy weapons would be worthless, anyway.

Most of my characters do a fair enough amount of damage, that most of the mob can be killed within 3-4 hits. That is, of course, with the obvious exceptions. Combine that with Critical Strike 10 (plus whatever critical strike chance the weapon brings), and there's definitely no need for stun.

By the way, I got a first-hit critical on a Minotaur a couple days ago (CS=9). I might take Critical Strike as high as 15 (that's a LOT of training, though), and see how it does there.

[Slider051870]

IM not doubting criticals at all in fact its very useful when compared to other diabolic skills My samauri/Hatamoto is lvl8 in critical and gets a decent amount of hits that are critical. what I was saying is that the totemic rune mace with its 7-17 damage is one of the best medium weapons in the game. (btw big bad mog is where it comes from) combine it with critical blows strength and dual weaponry and it makes for an awesome force

[terran698]

I haven't been able to find a one-handed heavy weapon yet. If there aren't at least two of them, dual heavy weapons would be worthless, anyway.

Most of my characters do a fair enough amount of damage, that most of the mob can be killed within 3-4 hits. That is, of course, with the obvious exceptions. Combine that with Critical Strike 10 (plus whatever critical strike chance the weapon brings), and there's definitely no need for stun.

By the way, I got a first-hit critical on a Minotaur a couple days ago (CS=9). I might take Critical Strike as high as 15 (that's a LOT of training, though), and see how it does there.

the no-dachi's and deamon blades are all 1handed. the deamonblades are only available through editing. i like the no-dachi's better though. i agree that the totemic runemace is one of the best 1h medium weapons in the game but i would prefer to use dual swords. i prefer this because the animations look faster to my eye and i have found some (legit) that deal more dmg than the runemace. i have a samouri started and hopefully before long i will have a hatamoto to test out the critical strike. bleeding wounds is more of a defensive skill imo. its basically stun w/ damage, love it. will post pics when i get them.