dont write cheques that your ass cant cash

[PipManChild]

And look at what it did for Ultima IX.

We can go on and on. I agree that 1st/3rd Person or Isometric does not necessarily say something about the game. I still prefer isometric.
I'm much more concerned about the change in combat system. From what I've read, they've also been cutting in the SPECIAL rules. Those two things are definitly hinge-points of Fallout. It's what makes Tactics still a Fallout game for me, while Brotherhood of Steel (PS2/Xbox) isn't for me.

what do you mean by cutting in the special rules?

[SupaCat]

and oblivion had much better AI then most other RPGs. especially since its in a FPP.

and in regards to the story and character involvement. Oblivion doesn't have a karma system. Oblivion does have a level cap of 20. Oblivion does cut off quests to the player as they progress through the game and make in game choices.

this is not oblivion. its fallout. (and i'm actually playing fallout 1 & 2 now, lets just say its not known for its brilliant AI)

Did Oblivion have a better AI than most? In my experience, No. Its AI was not...well done.

Oblivion didn't have level cap of 20 as I remember it.

I don't think Oblivion cutted off quest to the player. I presume you mean that some quest stop being avaliable to the player as he progressed in the game. You could, I believe, do any quest you wanted at any time.

Also, you say that real time combat will be difficult. I presume you concluded this after seeing the trailer. It should be noted that the player in the trailer was charging at the enemy. He survived. Yeah, maybe he did have a godlike cheat on, but why would you then presume that real time combat is difficult. I believe that this kind of combat will be of normal difficulty, but that the VATS system will make the game INCREDIBLY easy. Maybe they implanted it for the Turn based feeling. However, I think it will be easy to just dive up somewhere, do VATS, aim at the head and just get back to cover and just keep doing that.

[Xandax]

and oblivion had much better AI then most other RPGs. especially since its in a FPP.

and in regards to the story and character involvement. Oblivion doesn't have a karma system. Oblivion does have a level cap of 20. Oblivion does cut off quests to the player as they progress through the game and make in game choices.

this is not oblivion. its fallout. (and i'm actually playing fallout 1 & 2 now, lets just say its not known for its brilliant AI)

Oblivion did by far not have better AI then most RPGs, and few games overall. They just hyped it up with the Radiant AI before release and it was awful indeed. And no - it isn't Oblivion, but it is made by the same company as Oblivion and hyped by the same people who hyped one of the most dumbed down RPGs made in ages.

The age in which these games are made compared to back when Fallout was made alone would mean that the AI should be so much better. Not comparable or worse. But where Bethesda is involved - the only things which generally are better is the focus on graphics and hype..... oh and the gore which seems to be the main selling point.
"Look, we have bloody mess - so it is Fallout".

Sorry - no dice.

[GawainBS]

what do you mean by cutting in the special rules?

The rules-system which governs Fallout. It's heavily based on GURPS. Since turnbased combat is ingrained in it, realtime combat is bound to change those rules it.

[Kipi]

this game will not be a shooter.

we know this for a fact.

Basing on the videos I have seen, it's shooter, or at least very, very close to one. At this point I don't put much weight on the hype, as hardly anyone has been able to spend much time with the game besides the developers, and so far only one or two hasn't concentrated to graphics and shooting.

FO3 will stay very true to the original games, minus the view and combat system. (thank god)

we know this as a fact.

Traits remove, some skills removed totally and some merged to under less skills, perks every level, Fatman (seriously, nuclear explosion near you, which have NO affect to you? No radiation? No heat vawe?). These are the examples from top of my head about which aren't true to original games. From combat system I could find several more, and if I bothered to read all the hype devs and media has put around I could find even more.

i understand your point. but its a little presumptuous to say just because they changed the view and combat doesn't make it automatically not fallout.

i mean look at what change did for Grand theft auto 3.

Yeah, and due those changes I still prefer GTA 1&2 more

m predicting you get about 5 shots and then you can never use it again (they said it was a prototype weapon, that leads me to believe there is only one fatman in the game)

Weapon being prototype doesn't necessarely make it 5 shots then never be able to use. Good example, BFG from Doom series. True, the ammo may be more rare.

would think the classically awesome games known as fallout 1&2 was more then an isometric view and turn based combat.

pokemon had those game mechanics as well. i dont remember it being as good as fallout.

I wouldn't compare Pokémon and Fallouts. Yes, both had topdown view, but there the similarities with graphics end. Also, yes, both have turn based combat, but again nothing else in common.

But where Bethesda is involved - the only things which generally are better is the focus on graphics and hype..... oh and the gore which seems to be the main selling point.
"Look, we have bloody mess - so it is Fallout".

You got a point there. It seems that the gore and Bloody Mess gets most of the space from articles, as a matter of fact, it seems that hardly anyone concentrates to anything else than graphics and Bloody Mess. Hardly anything about the quests, hardly anything about dialogies.

[PipManChild]

Did Oblivion have a better AI than most? In my experience, No. Its AI was not...well done.

Oblivion didn't have level cap of 20 as I remember it.

I don't think Oblivion cutted off quest to the player. I presume you mean that some quest stop being avaliable to the player as he progressed in the game. You could, I believe, do any quest you wanted at any time.

Also, you say that real time combat will be difficult. I presume you concluded this after seeing the trailer. It should be noted that the player in the trailer was charging at the enemy. He survived. Yeah, maybe he did have a godlike cheat on, but why would you then presume that real time combat is difficult. I believe that this kind of combat will be of normal difficulty, but that the VATS system will make the game INCREDIBLY easy. Maybe they implanted it for the Turn based feeling. However, I think it will be easy to just dive up somewhere, do VATS, aim at the head and just get back to cover and just keep doing that.

i know the RT combat is difficult because i have read articles written by those who demoed the game at E3. (sso im not just going by the god modded public demo.

remember that the poeple who demoed the game only played for 30 minutes and none passed the town of megaton. thats at the very beginning of the game so im not surprised some got the impression it was easy.

(every game is easy right at the beginning, your a 1st lvl char)

i'm actually playing fallout 1 right now, the monsters at the beginning are very very easy to defeat.

[PipManChild]

Basing on the videos I have seen, it's shooter, or at least very, very close to one. At this point I don't put much weight on the hype, as hardly anyone has been able to spend much time with the game besides the developers, and so far only one or two hasn't concentrated to graphics and shooting.

Traits remove, some skills removed totally and some merged to under less skills, perks every level, Fatman (seriously, nuclear explosion near you, which have NO affect to you? No radiation? No heat vawe?). These are the examples from top of my head about which aren't true to original games. From combat system I could find several more, and if I bothered to read all the hype devs and media has put around I could find even more.

Yeah, and due those changes I still prefer GTA 1&2 more


Weapon being prototype doesn't necessarely make it 5 shots then never be able to use. Good example, BFG from Doom series. True, the ammo may be more rare.


I wouldn't compare Pokémon and Fallouts. Yes, both had topdown view, but there the similarities with graphics end. Also, yes, both have turn based combat, but again nothing else in common.



You got a point there. It seems that the gore and Bloody Mess gets most of the space from articles, as a matter of fact, it seems that hardly anyone concentrates to anything else than graphics and Bloody Mess. Hardly anything about the quests, hardly anything about dialogies.

no game that is remotely successfully has the exact same game mechanics as its first installment. even fallout 2 made some changes to the original.

in regard to the fatman, is it realistic? no. is it realistic that heavy exposures to radiation will turn you into an immortal giant manfreak? or a zombie creature with trees growing out of its head and never grows old? no. this whole franchise is based on fantasy so don't play the unrealistic card. and we don't know quite yet if there are negative effects to using it.

the reason i mention pokemon is because that is a game that is also an over head view and turn based. yet the two games are nothing alike. why? because a combat system and view point are not the defining qualities of a game.

real time combat and FPP doesn't make it not fallout.

and i have read plenty of articles that don't even mention bloody perk. not everyone is interested in fallout 3 for the gore.

[Kipi]

no game that is remotely successfully has the exact same game mechanics as its first installment. even fallout 2 made some changes to the original.

Besides more perks, items and possibility to more levels? I can't think of any other changes to the concept than maximum of the skills was changed to 300%, you could affect more to the behaviour of NPC companions and in case of melee fighting kicks and punches had variations depending on your level and skill level. What else was changed?

in regard to the fatman, is it realistic? no. is it realistic that heavy exposures to radiation will turn you into an immortal giant manfreak? or a zombie creature with trees growing out of its head and never grows old? no. this whole franchise is based on fantasy so don't play the unrealistic card. and we don't know quite yet if there are negative effects to using it.

First of all, Chris Avelone has confirmed that Super Mutants was result of FEV, with radiation only playing very minor part. Secondly, there is no zombies in Fallouts, but ghouls. Two very different things. Thirdly, it's known fact from real world that radiation does change your DNA. What's the result of several generations being forced to live in radiated ground for decades? There is no scientific evidence yet what would be the results, as there has been no way to study it as something so destructive hasn't happened yet. Closest goes Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but there hasn't been actually that long since them. Finally, even if we just think the Fatman thing in perspective of Fallout world, still it's against everything presented elsewhere. Radiation does affect you in the series, as it does in Fallout 3. The devs have even confirmed that you may die if you drink radiated water or eat radiated food. So radiation is harmful. Nuclear bomb does cause radiation. So, in that logic the Fatman should cause radiation, and the player should be affected by it. So far there has been no evidence that it does, Bethesda has just been showing how "cool" the Fatman is.

the reason i mention pokemon is because that is a game that is also an over head view and turn based. yet the two games are nothing alike. why? because a combat system and view point are not the defining qualities of a game.

Yes, those are. Not the only ones but definately they belong to the group of defining qualities. Isometric view and AP based turn based compat were one of the things that made Fallouts what they were. So, those definately are defining qualities.

and i have read plenty of articles that don't even mention bloody perk. not everyone is interested in fallout 3 for the gore.

Could you point me few? I haven't seen more than maybe 3 or 4, definately lno more than 5. Oh, and for clarification, I'm speaking of those articles which came out AFTER publishing of material which showed the results of Bloody Mess.

[Xandax]

<snip>
and i have read plenty of articles that don't even mention bloody perk. not everyone is interested in fallout 3 for the gore.

The main selling point from the vast majority of the latest crop of previews are the gore; Going into "VATS" and seeing somebody head being blow off (or leg when you aim for an arm), bloody mess is fun and bla bla bla.
Many are so very focused on the gore aspect.
"Oh, it'll be mature because of the blood and gore" - yeah - where's the sex? That was a large part of Fallout as well. Might just be a novelty factor for many, but it was an integral part of the Fallout world as well and in a "realistic" way.

Now - why don't the previews show other stuff, such as dialogue and how stats play a role in that aspect? The supposedly superior AI? The choices which influence the game world (oh, you can blow up the town or not.....). How to by pass dangerous enemies (by bribe, dialogue, sex, sneak, drug them up) other then blowing them up with head shots and rocket launchers or .... *shudder* hand held nuclear catapults *shake head*

I've not seen much from Bethesda to be impressed by since Daggerfall.

[GawainBS]

Indeed, I would really like to see some real gameplay footage, with dialogue, actual quest solving, what exactly happens at level up, how does armour change your stats, etc., instead of blood, nuclear catapults and shooting.

[PipManChild]

has anyone ever thought it may be a little long to show the use of all the skills.(even though they did show lockpicking, and the option to hack into a turret and turn it against its owner alternative non shooter option anyone) the demo in e3 showed combat, minor skills, items, and a few enemies and back story. thats quite a bit in about a 2 minute demo. it was stated that this game will have roughly the same amount of dialog as oblivion
and half the NPCs. not even she ****ty dialog in oblivion could have fit into that demo, how could fallout 3's.

and are you really trying to convince me that hulking mutants and and decayed ghouls that glow in the dark are realistic? just because it could happen doesn't mean it will or its realistic. Its more then plausible to assume in 1000 years we will be flying huge space ships and joining alliances with aliens across the galaxy. that does make star trek realistic.

is the fatboy a little more over the top. sure, but fact is we don't know much about it other then it shoots pocket nukes and that its a prototype. how do we know its not a specially designed nuke that doesn't send out waves of harmful radiation. (if FEV is possible so is this)

[Kipi]

and are you really trying to convince me that hulking mutants and and decayed ghouls that glow in the dark are realistic? just because it could happen doesn't mean it will or its realistic. Its more then plausible to assume in 1000 years we will be flying huge space ships and joining alliances with aliens across the galaxy. that does make star trek realistic.

is the fatboy a little more over the top. sure, but fact is we don't know much about it other then it shoots pocket nukes and that its a prototype. how do we know its not a specially designed nuke that doesn't send out waves of harmful radiation. (if FEV is possible so is this)

Actually, my point what I was trying to make was that in normal world science and physics, both FEV and ghoulish effects affected by radiation is at least theorically possible. Nuclear explosion that doesn't cause radiation is not possible, however. It just aint. Also, if the physics in Fallout world is so different that nuclear explosion doesn't cause radiation, then the basings of the whole setting is removed.

[PipManChild]

Actually, my point what I was trying to make was that in normal world science and physics, both FEV and ghoulish effects affected by radiation is at least theorically possible. Nuclear explosion that doesn't cause radiation is not possible, however. It just aint. Also, if the physics in Fallout world is so different that nuclear explosion doesn't cause radiation, then the basings of the whole setting is removed.

if your really trying to convince me that we have scientific proof that FEV can exist, then you've really lost it. just because something can possibly happen doesn't mean it will.

is it possible that some day with out technology gamma radiation will be able to turn a mild mannered scientist into a indestructible hulk. sure anythings possible, but its neither probable or realistic.

i said before the fat man is an over the top weapon. but in a world were radioactivity can give you powers or make you a freak it isn't that large a stretch to make some for of radiation that isn't harmful to humans.

this isn't nonfiction. its scifi.

and if your going to argue with me about the game bring up something that matters. having a ridicules weapon in the game doesn't effect your enjoyment.

what we know from science is that extreme contact with radiation will kill you in a day or so.

[Kipi]

if your really trying to convince me that we have scientific proof that FEV can exist, then you've really lost it. just because something can possibly happen doesn't mean it will.

is it possible that some day with out technology gamma radiation will be able to turn a mild mannered scientist into a indestructible hulk. sure anythings possible, but its neither probable or realistic.

i said before the fat man is an over the top weapon. but in a world were radioactivity can give you powers or make you a freak it isn't that large a stretch to make some for of radiation that isn't harmful to humans.

this isn't nonfiction. its scifi.

and if your going to argue with me about the game bring up something that matters. having a ridicules weapon in the game doesn't effect your enjoyment.

what we know from science is that extreme contact with radiation will kill you in a day or so.

First of all, did you read what I wrote? Super mutants aren't results of radiation but genetic enginering, which FEV is part of. Radiation has only very minor part on that. This is what Chris Avelone has stated.

Secondly, extreme contact does kill you. But what if generations live in area that isn't extremely radiated, but still radiated? Mutation. There is examples of that from Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Chernobyl (spelling?). Each three did kill people immediately, but each one has many examples of how living in radiated area does cause mutation.

Thirdly, to me and I to many more I know Fatman is actually one of those things degrees the enjoyment. If it doesn't do that to you, well, I'm not going to argue about that as it's matter of personal taste.

[PipManChild]

First of all, did you read what I wrote? Super mutants aren't results of radiation but genetic enginering, which FEV is part of. Radiation has only very minor part on that. This is what Chris Avelone has stated.

Secondly, extreme contact does kill you. But what if generations live in area that isn't extremely radiated, but still radiated? Mutation. There is examples of that from Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Chernobyl (spelling?). Each three did kill people immediately, but each one has many examples of how living in radiated area does cause mutation.

Thirdly, to me and I to many more I know Fatman is actually one of those things degrees the enjoyment. If it doesn't do that to you, well, I'm not going to argue about that as it's matter of personal taste.

ok then. so the genetic manipulation of human beings into giant green mutants isn't realistic. happy?

yes radiation may mutate you, but make you live forever and increase your intellect? i don't know if you just want to have the last word or something but thats not realistic, no matter how you slice it.

so if i understand you correctly the very notion of the fatman in fallout decreases the enjoyment level. even if you never discover it or have to use it. and even if no one attacks you with it in the game...

i hate ewoks, doesn't mean i hate starwars. i love starwars.

anyway i think we can agree to dissagree and say that this upcoming fallout will have many elements that will excite and annoy gamers across the world.

i envision a 2 lines of geeks in the future have a video game turf war...

out of curiosity. will you be getting FO3 this coming fall?

[SupaCat]

First of all, I want to tell that not all Atom bombs cause radiation. The neutron boms kills living creatures, doesn't destroy structures and doesn't cause radiation.

Second, Pip, you "say" that mutation in the game makes you life forever and increases your INT. The mutants don't live forever and aren't smarter, they are however stronger. Where did you get that idea?

Also, you hate Ewoks, right. You like Star Wars... What about a star wars game where there are lots of Ewoks? The ewoks can be seen as the Fat Man.

Also, if you never see or use the Fatman why would there be so much bragging about it by Bethesda?

[PipManChild]

First of all, I want to tell that not all Atom bombs cause radiation. The neutron boms kills living creatures, doesn't destroy structures and doesn't cause radiation.

Second, Pip, you "say" that mutation in the game makes you life forever and increases your INT. The mutants don't live forever and aren't smarter, they are however stronger. Where did you get that idea?

Also, you hate Ewoks, right. You like Star Wars... What about a star wars game where there are lots of Ewoks? The ewoks can be seen as the Fat Man.

Also, if you never see or use the Fatman why would there be so much bragging about it by Bethesda?

yes a game were there was nothing but ewoks sounds pretty bad.

but i don't think well have that problem with fallout 3 unless you start the game with the fatman, shoot enemies who only fire the fatman, find weapon variations of the fatman and have your states directly relate to the fatman.

its just a ****ing gun dude. you don't like it don't use it. bethseda talked about the fatman, what for 20 seconds at E3? now the whole game is suddenly hinging on the fatman.

i cant even believe i'm sitting here talking about that **** weapon. its one of the least important things in the game.

no ones going to buy fallout 3 for some really powerful weapon. and if they did they are probably to stupid to make it that far in the game to get it.

[PipManChild]

i was under the impression that the ghouls were ageless, as were the supermutants.

[SupaCat]

For what are people going to buy Fallout 3 then? No really...

And perhaps I'm not going to use Fatman (that being if I would buy the game) but it would seem that Bethesda will have some quests in store where you HAVE to use it. Why else would you put a super weapon in the game?

And yes, we're talking about a f***ing gun, but it is all that there is to talk about. Guns and Gore. That would propably be a great subtitle for Fallout 3.

Fallout 3:Guns and Gore. You know you'll buy it

About the ghouls, I don't know. Some still live in the time of Fallout 1 and 2, others die soon after. I guess it variets from ghoul to ghoul meaning how much radiation they've had on them.

[pvon2]

About the Fatboy. Maybe you don't care about radiation since there is already tons of it everywhere? Maybe you just take some radaway after using it. Maybe you get a 6th toe after using it. I dont know, you don't know... but who cares. That weapon is freakin cool.