3-man crew - Input appreciated

[Carnifex]

Hi,

I've decided to do a run using three characters covering all the necessary roles (frontline fighter, cleric, arcane caster and thief)

This is what I've got in mind currently:

Berserker9/ClericX
Kensai9/MageX
Kensai9/ThiefX

I've opted for using only dualclass toons (the halfelven ranger/cleric and the halfling fighter/thief and some sort of arcane caster will make it into the next runthru)

Here's where I'd like some input:

It's been a while since my last run thru the game so I don't have all the items fresh in memory, but I was wondering if the following proficiency allocations would be wise choices or not:

Berserker/Cleric: Two-Weapon Style, Warhammers, Flails
Kensai/Mage: Two-Handed Weapon Style, Staves
Kensai/Thief: Single-Weapon Style, Katanas (I intend to backstab alot with this guy)

Any input regarding this would be greatly appreciated. Actually any input/thoughts about this setup would be

//C

Edit: Since thief levels are gained very quickly, maybe holding of the dualclassing of the kensai/thief til kensai13 for even more benefits might be a good idea ? Or will this delay access to thieving abilities too long ?

[galraen]

You'll absolutely slaughter the game with that combo. The only thing I can think of worth mentioning is that a duel-classed fighter->mage is not limited in what weapons he/she can use once the fighter class becomes active again, unlike a fighter->Cleric. So you could actually go for another weapon whilst you're a fighter, unless you really want to use a staff of course.

[Carnifex]

You'll absolutely slaughter the game with that combo. The only thing I can think of worth mentioning is that a duel-classed fighter->mage is not limited in what weapons he/she can use once the fighter class becomes active again, unlike a fighter->Cleric. So you could actually go for another weapon whilst you're a fighter, unless you really want to use a staff of course.

I was thinking about staff of the Magi/Ram. But I'm open to suggestions here

Oh...If my kensai/thief can backstab with a twohander, that neat pallysword comes to mind once I get my hands on UAI. If thats the case, maybe the kensai/mage could wield the katana instead. Not sure if it's possible to backstab with Holy Avenger though, but I'm pretty sure someone on these boards will know

//C

[galraen]

No you can't backstab with a two-handed sword, you can only backstab with a weapon a pure thief can use. Just create a thief to see which ones you can backstab with.

[Crenshinibon]

Rather, the only two handed weapons that you CAN backstab with are staves.

Instead of a Berserker/Cleric, I'd use either a Kensai/Cleric or a Kensai Druid even.

Both have enough buffs to get decent AC and protection, but you should dual them (only do this with one character in this case) much later than nine. That way, the characters would get more from the Kensai's bonus which can, for a divine caster be ever a blessing.

[Carnifex]

I have to say, it's rather ironic that you can backstab with a staff, but not a twohanded sword

I guess I should have the kensai/thief pick up proficiencypoints in staffs and twohanded style then, yes ?

And rather have the kensai/mage opt for two-weapon style and katanas and/or longswords ?

//C

[Carnifex]

Rather, the only two handed weapons that you CAN backstab with are staves.

Instead of a Berserker/Cleric, I'd use either a Kensai/Cleric or a Kensai Druid even.

Both have enough buffs to get decent AC and protection, but you should dual them (only do this with one character in this case) much later than nine. That way, the characters would get more from the Kensai's bonus which can, for a divine caster be ever a blessing.

I realize the benefits with this, and thank you for the input. However, I've got my mind set on a zerker/cleric for this run. What I really was looking for was the optimal proficiency point assignment for each of the characters I listed above. (Then again I said I'd appreciate any input hehe)

//C

[Crenshinibon]

Well, you should have enough proficiencies to specialize in a staff as well as one other weapon, which I'd say should be something fast, like scimitars. I generally like to dual late, so again, I'd suggest choosing one of your characters and dualing that one in his or her twenties.

Actually, as a Kensai mage (for me at least), I don't think it matters where you put your points. I'd easily take scimitars too. Again, this character benefits from dualing later as well. Shapechange with Kensai bonuses and the normal mage buffs is a sight to be hold. The regeneration on the Greater Wolfwere is amazing, and with Belm's extra attack, you'll be able to perform some eight to ten attacks per round when Improved Hasted.

I suggested the Kensai/Cleric or Kensai/Druid combo not because of the healing spells, but because of their ability to buff themselves and dominate offense. This combo (dualed late) is capable of hitting anything with harm (not to mention achieving a physical resistance of 85% next to its' impressive AC). With this character, you won't need the others. In any case, should you choose a Kensai or Berzerker here (AC doesn't make a difference here. Barskin would give you the same AC as an armor with an AC bonus of -2), you should start out flails and two weapon style. Then, after that, start investing in warhammers. Two very good flails are available very early on, ones that I'm sure you'll be using by the end of ToB.

[kmonster]

For the cleric berserker is a better choice than kensai. The to hit bonus doesn't matter since clerics get perfect thac0 anyway and +3 to damage isn't that useful considering the kensai disadvantages and the berserker advantages. There are many beneficial gauntlets, helmets and armors in the game, you'll want at least one to be able to use them.

I don't think it's worth waiting longer than 9 levels for dualclassing. 9 levels already offer most fighter benefits, what you get afterwards is very little compared to this, yields a very long dualclassing time and slows down the progression of the second class a lot. I'd rather consider dualing at level 7 instead of level 9.

[Klorox]

When you initially dual those classes and lose the Fighter abilities, your team is going to suck hard.

I suggest dual classing one of the characters at level 7.

[Carnifex]

When you initially dual those classes and lose the Fighter abilities, your team is going to suck hard.

I suggest dual classing one of the characters at level 7.

I'm well aware of the fact that they will have a period of somewhat diminished powers I agree that dualing one of the toons at level 7 would be alot more convenient, but I'd like to give it a try. Worst case scenario, I'd have to *temporarily* bring in some NPC til they get out of the lower levels post-dual.

If I for any reason find it too much of a hassle, I could just reroll with a half-elf ranger/cleric, a halfling fighter/thief and a gnome fighter/illusionist (or possibly elven sorcerer), and not worry about "dips in the power graph" at all.

I'll prolly opt for the following proficiency allocation, based on your input.

berserker/cleric: flails, hammers, two-weapon fighting
kensai/mage: katanas, longswords, two-weapon fighting
kensai/thief: scimitars, quarterstaffs, two-weapon fighting

Again, thank you all for your thoughts on the subject!

//C

[Crenshinibon]

The hit bonus matters when using the "touch" weapon. If you go Kensai/Druid, you'll have access to Iron Skins and be able to perform five attacks per round with scimitars.

If you want to avoid dualing your Kensai/Thief later, you could get away at doing so at level fourteen (this way you gain an extra half attack at level thriteen and a few more hitpoints at level fourteen, which is the most you can get with the "lost experience" of dualing so early on).

I think you should have the Kensai/Mage use short swords or scimitars, primarily for usage of Kundane +2 or Belm +2.

If you dual anyone late, it should be the fighter/cleric combo, primarily for the Hardiness ability.

[Klorox]

It's a matter of opinion, but I personally believe multiclassed characters are more powerful than their dualclassed counterparts.

[Crenshinibon]

The best way to find out is to do some personal testing and see for yourself. In my experience, the Kensai/Druid and Fighter/Druid combinations are exactly the same, except that the latter has a high AC on a regular basis, while the first one can match it with a single use of barkskin. Also, the first one is able to attain grandmastery and use Kai.

I think that the only multiclasses that are worth taking are the Ranger/Cleric and the Illusionist/Thief.

[Carnifex]

The hit bonus matters when using the "touch" weapon. If you go Kensai/Druid, you'll have access to Iron Skins and be able to perform five attacks per round with scimitars.

If you want to avoid dualing your Kensai/Thief later, you could get away at doing so at level fourteen (this way you gain an extra half attack at level thriteen and a few more hitpoints at level fourteen, which is the most you can get with the "lost experience" of dualing so early on).

I think you should have the Kensai/Mage use short swords or scimitars, primarily for usage of Kundane +2 or Belm +2.

If you dual anyone late, it should be the fighter/cleric combo, primarily for the Hardiness ability.

If I was to specialize in shortswords and scimitars with the kensai/mage, should I modify the kensai/thiefs proficiencies as well, to katanas/longswords ? I'd rather not have the same proficiencies (scimitars in this case) on two characters.

//C

[galraen]

I have to say, it's rather ironic that you can backstab with a staff, but not a twohanded sword

You shouldn't be able to back-stab with either, another case of poor implementation.


The big advantage of the PC being Berserker/X is the immunity to imprisonment and maze that berserker enrage gives.

[Carnifex]

You shouldn't be able to back-stab with either, another case of poor implementation.


The big advantage of the PC being Berserker/X is the immunity to imprisonment and maze that berserker enrage gives.

I agree. Backstabs shouldn't be possible with anything but onehanded, bladed weapons. I'd be fine with a dagger/shortsword only restriction as well.

//C

[Crenshinibon]

I personally prefer speed to anything else. The point is, if you decide to fight as the Kensai/Mage while shapechanged, an item like Kundane or Belm would increase your attacks per round. This is also important for the Kensai/Thief for when he or she goes on an Assassination tangent. For the Mage I'd choose shortswords and maybe something else, while for the Kensai/Thief you would choose scimitars for normal fighting and staves for backstabbing.

Maze is only deadly if you solo and if the caster focuses their attention on the Kensai/Mage who is under the effects of the correct Spell Immunity type, then there's no problem.

[Carnifex]

I personally prefer speed to anything else. The point is, if you decide to fight as the Kensai/Mage while shapechanged, an item like Kundane or Belm would increase your attacks per round. This is also important for the Kensai/Thief for when he or she goes on an Assassination tangent. For the Mage I'd choose shortswords and maybe something else, while for the Kensai/Thief you would choose scimitars for normal fighting and staves for backstabbing.

Maze is only deadly if you solo and if the caster focuses their attention on the Kensai/Mage who is under the effects of the correct Spell Immunity type, then there's no problem.

Perhaps the following would work then ?

Kensai/Mage: Shortsword, Katana (I'd hate not to utilize the celestial fury)
Kensai/Thief: Scimitar (I assume there's at least two viable scimitars out there, yes?), Quarterstaff (for the backstabs)

or possibly

Kensai/Mage: Longsword (Angurvadal, Equalizer, Daystar, Blackrazor), Shortsword (Mask, Kundane)
Kensai/Thief: Katana (mainhand Celestial Fury), Scimitar (offhand Belm)

Thanks,

//C

[Crenshinibon]

I think for backstabbing, the staff is a must. I almost never specialize in Katanas as by the time you're in ToB, you have better weapons to use. There are only two magical Katanas worth noting in the game and in my opinion, neither of them are that good. For normal combat (and Assassination) you'd probably end up using Belm +2 in the off hand and Spectral Brand +5 in the main hand.

Again, if you fight shapechanged, the only thing that matters is increasing your resistances and attack speed as the strength bonuses from items (such as the girdles) do not carry over to your new form. If anything, I'd use the Dak'kon's Zerth Blade for the extra spells per day. If you DO intend to do most of your fighting in your human form, then taking longswords for Blackrazor or Angurvadal may be worth your while.