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McCains running partner.

Anything goes... just keep it clean.
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Vicsun
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Post by Vicsun »

Xandax wrote:Yeah - it is describing the entire attitude of him at the moment.
And even me - not living in the USA - if I hear his "my friends" one more time :angry:
Speaking of phrases repeated again and again and again and again:
Synchronized Presidential Debating - 236.com - Video


edit: McCain the socialist, whom I might have supported were he still alive
Vicsun, I certainly agree with your assertion that you are an unpleasant person. ~Chanak

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Post by dragon wench »

I tend to agree regarding McCain. While I disliked his politics, on the whole he originally struck me as a fundamentally decent man.
So, I was also very surprised to see him transform into the nasty, bitter person he has become... Then I read the Rolling Stone article Von Dondu posted in this thread and it all made sense. If that piece is accurate, and I suspect it is, John McCain will be whomever he needs to be to get ahead.
If you have not read it, I recommend doing so, it is quite long but well worth it.

Like Democrats in the US, like many people all over the world, I am biting my nails, and won't stop biting them till it is over... Certainly, Obama is not the proverbial "B all and End all," and, assuming he does indeed win, he's going to be confronting one Hell of a mess. However, he's a far, far better alternative than four years of McCain and Palin at the helm.... And God help us all if McCain were to croak while in office.
I also can't help but feel the excitement that such a historic election brings. In the US, just the thought that a Black person could become president is pretty damned amazing. Even five or ten years ago, it would have been beyond the realm of possibility.

Unlike some, I do not see this as the lesser of two evils. Call me naive maybe, but I honestly believe Obama has the potential to be a transformative leader.
Often, I am hard-bitten and deeply cynical about politics, not just politics but many things... Yet, when I listened to Obama's [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZCrIeRkMhA&NR=1"]acceptance speech[/url] at the DNC, I dared to feel hope. Nobody could speak with that much passion straight from the gut and not mean it.
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Post by dragon wench »

And in other news....
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqV3AXjqP0w&feature=channel"]Senator McCain was accidentally left in a bus overnight[/url]...
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Post by Nightmare »

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3EkhDru23U"]Joe Biden answers some questions...[/url]

Fair and unbiased journalism, it is not.
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Post by jklinders »

Here's another zinger for Sarah Palin. Seems she was tricked by a couple of Quebec comedians in a prank call into thinking she was talking to Pres Sarkozy of France. I can't understand all of the french words used, but damn she got zinged and didn't even know it.

PRANK CALL - Nova Scotia News - TheChronicleHerald.ca
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Post by dragon wench »

jklinders wrote:Here's another zinger for Sarah Palin. Seems she was tricked by a couple of Quebec comedians in a prank call into thinking she was talking to Pres Sarkozy of France. I can't understand all of the french words used, but damn she got zinged and didn't even know it.

PRANK CALL - Nova Scotia News - TheChronicleHerald.ca
lol!!! :laugh:
OK, to be fair to Palin, that was a damned convincing prank, and her responses to some of those comments were pretty noncommittal.
you can hear the call here

However, what I found very interesting was her line that she might run in eight years. We can interpret this several ways:
a) She thinks McCain will win, and then achieve a second term
b) She thinks McCain will win, and somebody else will follow him for 4 years
c) She thinks Obama will win and then somebody else will run after him
d) Contrary to the current story that their internal numbers are much tighter than the public polls, she expects Obama to win and get a second term.

"A" strikes me as unlikely, just based on McCain's age
"B" doesn't make a ton of sense, in that scenario, why wouldn't she take a kick at the can after four years?
"C" again asks, why wait?

Which leaves "D"
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Post by jklinders »

Thanks for the link Dragon Wench, she seemed surprised enough when they ID'ed themselves. Like I said I couldn't get all of the French, but the french comment involving baby seals and hunting had me ROFL for a few minutes. Especially as Palin seemed to take it as a French proverb. She might have a chance at the nomination in 8 years, but she is going to have to get the bats out of her belfry first. The prospect of her hands being near the red button of doomsday has me creeped out. I'd like my post nuclear apocolypse experience to be restricted to Fallout 3 for now.
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Post by VonDondu »

dragon wench wrote:a) She thinks McCain will win, and then achieve a second term

"A" strikes me as unlikely, just based on McCain's age
Keep in mind that politicians follow certain rules. As a Vice Presidential candidate, Sarah Palin is supposed to sound like she believes that her Presidential running mate will win two terms in office. After eight years, it will be "her turn". It doesn't matter what her running mate's chances actually are; that's the way the game is supposed to be played. Anything less would be stupid and disloyal.

Even so, Sarah Palin's supporters have been talking about the possibility of Palin running for President herself in 2012, and McCain's supporters are very ticked off about it. The implication is that they don't believe that McCain can win this election (or the next one). If Sarah Palin ever suggested something like that herself, it would undermine her runnning mate, and if I were a McCain supporter, I'd be pretty ticked off about it, too. Vice Presidential candidates (those who know better, anyway) shouldn't do things like that.
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Post by Vicsun »

Has McCain not publicly announced that if elected he will not seek a second term?
Vicsun, I certainly agree with your assertion that you are an unpleasant person. ~Chanak

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Post by VonDondu »

jklinders wrote:[Palin] might have a chance at the nomination in 8 years, but she is going to have to get the bats out of her belfry first. The prospect of her hands being near the red button of doomsday has me creeped out. I'd like my post nuclear apocolypse experience to be restricted to Fallout 3 for now.
She apparently believes that we're already at war with Iran. Actually, she said:

"We’re confident that we’re going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies that we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?"

You can see it yourself on YouTube:

YouTube - Palin Declares War on Iran

If we're going to be cynical, then she means that we are literally or figuratively at war with Iran. I think she believes that we are in a holy war against Islam, which means we need to fight a bunch of wars with all of those countries "over there" (including the ones she can't see from her house). Even if she made a simple mistake and referred to "Iraq and Iran" instead of Iraq and Afghanistan, the slip is telling. Does she know the difference between Iran and Afghanistan? Does she think that any differences are relevant? McCain himself doesn't know the difference between Shiites and Sunnis, and he doesn't think the differences are relevant.

I know a bunch of people who think that way. They're also the type of people who don't see anything wrong when our government buys a HUGE stake in the "means of production"--the very definition of socialism--and gives trillions of dollars to greedy corporations and investors who have caused untold damage to the global economy. Instead, they believe that "socialism" means "taking money from white people who work and giving it to black people who don't work". They don't know a damned thing about economics or political theory, and their brains are totally discombobulated by the quote from Karl Marx that goes, "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". They throw a fit at the thought of having a black President, which is even worse to them than having a Democratic President. They repeat every type of criticism they can think of, even if it's phony, racist, or just plain idiotic.

But anyway, if we're going to be more generous, then maybe what Palin meant is that we have a lot of work to do in Iran if we want to win the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I actually sort of agree with that. However, if I were one of this nation's leaders, I would not talk about "working on things in Iran" and "being at war with Iraq and Afghanistan" in the very same sentence (as if there's no distinction). That is just plain dumb. (Do we need a dumb President? A lot of people actually think so. Dumb is better than smart!) She also seems to think that "working on things in Iran" means bombing the crap out of them. That's what John McCain himself has proposed ("bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran"). And yes, that's being generous.

Either way, she's an ignorant, deluded warmonger. A lot of people think that's exactly what we need!
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Post by VonDondu »

Vicsun wrote:Has McCain not publicly announced that if elected he will not seek a second term?
If he has, I haven't heard about it. Some reporters have claimed that McCain has hinted that he would not seek a second term, but to my knowledge, he never came right out and said it, and they're basing their speculation on very flimsy evidence.

Back in January, before McCain won the Republican nomination, before the first primary vote was even cast, and before he was tested as a Presidential candidate at his current age in this election cycle, a lot of people thought his age would be an issue. When McCain was campaigning in New Hampshire, a potential voter asked him whether he has the stamina to serve as President for eight years. He replied, "I was a POW." Oh wait, that's not what he said. Actually, he said, "If I said I was running for eight years, I'm not sure that would be a vote-getter." No, it might have hurt his chances among primary voters who were worried about his age, and I'm sure he wanted to avoid making it an issue by talking about two terms. A lot of people jumped on his remark and started saying that McCain "was leaving open the possibility that, if he is elected, he might not seek re-election." Really? I think that's a stretch, especially when you're talking about John McCain. He will say ANYTHING to improve his chances of being elected, and that's ALL he was doing when he made that remark to a potential voter during the primary season back in January. In the annals of off-the-cuff, non-committal remarks made by political candidates, it's ancient history.

Now that McCain is the Republican candidate, it's obvious that his age did not prevent him from winning the primaries. That makes his age less of an issue. If he can beat Romney, Giuliani, and Huckabee, then he's as fit as a goat. In the general election, his age might be slightly more important to "undecided" voters who don't know anything else to base their votes on, but Obama's race and his identity as a damn liberal Democrat are much more likely to sway "undecided" voters. That, along with his support for black uprisings, terrorism, socialism, high taxes, sex education for kindergarteners, and Islam, of course. There's no telling how those "undecided" voters are going to make up their minds.

But still, I mean, really, do you think people who are voting against McCain are voting against him just because he's old?

Anyway, reporters also seized on another piece of "evidence" back in August. On "Fox News Sunday," host Chris Wallace was interviewing McCain's campaign manager, Rick Davis. Wallace asked, "Is there any chance that Senator McCain will pledge to serve only one term as President and that there will be no politics in the White House?"

Davis replied, "Well, first of all, if you know John McCain, you know there's not going to be much politics in the White House anyway. I mean, he doesn't grade any of his decisions either as a senator or in the future as president on what the political dynamic is. You look at his history, whether it's campaign finance reform, or opposing this administration on detainee abuse and things like that, he does what he thinks is right for the country, and he's going to do that throughout his career no matter what office he holds."

Wallace asked again, "But is there any possibility, because I didn't get an answer there -- is there any thought -- is there any possibility that he would consider issuing a pledge, say, at the Republican convention, 'I will serve one term as President?' "

Davis replied, "Chris, you're going to have to come to the Republican convention to find out what's going to happen there. And I think everybody should tune in, because it's going to be an excellent event and very interesting to all viewers.

So Wallace said, "You're not ruling it out."

Davis replied, "I'm not talking about it at all."


Keep in mind that McCain himself was not speaking. Not exactly rock-solid evidence there.

Maybe McCain is thinking about serving only one term. But I think it's more likely that McCain doesn't want to talk about serving a second term just so he can avoid questions about his age. That's probably a smart idea. McCain doesn't strike me as the type to pass up an opportunity for more power, or the type to admit that he has limitations, so if he could win this election, I'm sure he would seek a second term.

If you have seen or heard anything to the contrary, I'd like to know about it.
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Post by dragon wench »

VonDondu wrote:Keep in mind that politicians follow certain rules. As a Vice Presidential candidate, Sarah Palin is supposed to sound like she believes that her Presidential running mate will win two terms in office. After eight years, it will be "her turn". It doesn't matter what her running mate's chances actually are; that's the way the game is supposed to be played. Anything less would be stupid and disloyal.
Very true, and that occurred to me as well, especially since my SO has worked as a ministerial assistant, so I know way more about this kind of stuff than I actually want to :D
The thing is, though... how much would she feel the requirements of maintaining a positive outlook with somebody whom she'd likely consider an ally? I don't know... Palin is such a wild card, it is very hard to guess where she could be coming from.

On a totally different note...
In truth I do have some empathy for Palin because I see a little of myself in her. OK... let me explain what I mean.... :D ;)
Much of what I've read about her seems to confirm my guess that she is a little like a deer in the headlights when confronted by a situation where she has no control, hence her disastrous Couric interviews, amongst other things. From what I gather she's the naturally reticent type with a 'closet type A' personality that comes to the fore in situations where she feels comfortable. I can relate to that pretty well; I can also empathise with freezing at interviews..
While I think Palin is lacking in sophistication and education, I don't think she is necessarily stupid.
Certainly, I really would like to think I'd have handled the 'foreign experience' question differently, but I did feel a touch of sympathy nonetheless.
Chances are I'd have fallen back on what is usually my downfall, namely, I'd have been honest and said I had little foreign policy experience, but that I was very excited at the prospect of meeting with world leaders and working in the area etc. etc.. The fallout from a reply like that probably would not have been much better, but I personally feel it is better to appear honest than as an utter moron.

Now, this is not to say I'd feel comfortable with her in the driver's seat, anything but!!! :speech: Were I an American I'd be voting Democrat all the way. I guess I've just been reflecting as the campaign has unfolded, and I've tried to understand the reasons behind the incredible gaffs.
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Post by Moonbiter »

dragon wench wrote: While I think Palin is lacking in sophistication and education, I don't think she is necessarily stupid.
I have to disagree here. She is mindblowingly stupid in the most dangerous way there is: arrogance. She is completely aware of her own lack of sophistication and education, and she's frikkin proud of it! She thinks she's qualified to run a superpower because she's a dumb hockey-mom from Moosewank - Alaska. The worst part of it is that the rest of the yokels think so too. If that ain't stupidity of the worst kind, nothing is.
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Post by dragon wench »

Moonbiter wrote:I have to disagree here. She is mindblowingly stupid in the most dangerous way there is: arrogance. She is completely aware of her own lack of sophistication and education, and she's frikkin proud of it! She thinks she's qualified to run a superpower because she's a dumb hockey-mom from Moosewank - Alaska. The worst part of it is that the rest of the yokels think so too. If that ain't stupidity of the worst kind, nothing is.
And she's using her lack of sophistication and education to garner a particular set of votes. That's not stupid, it's politics.
I agree that her believing she has the ability to run a superpower is extremely frightening, terrifying in fact, but I don't equate hubris with stupidity.

Not to drift too far off topic, but I think it's relevant..
I currently live in a semi-rural area that lies about 30 minutes drive from a city of approximately 400000 (no, it's not my first choice, but property values in the city itself are prohibitive). I am surrounded by all kinds of people who are just like Palin and her supporters. I especially see evidence of this when I watch the kids on the bus... Yet, behind the overly abundant teen pregnancies, behind the racial slurs directed at Asians and Indigenous Peoples, behind the boasts of who has the biggest shotgun or truck... I see a flicker of intelligence. Tragically, though, I suspect the majority of these individuals will grow up to be exactly like Palin. While they might possess the innate ability to think, to consider the world around them in an analytical manner, they give every appearance of never doing so, and I have little reason to believe they ever will.

I think though, it comes down to semantics and the way we are each defining stupidity. A stupid person, in my view, is somebody who never had, and never will have, the ability to think critically at any level because they simply do not possess the raw material.
Sure, Palin comes across as a dough head who has never had an intelligent thought in her life, which may well be the case. However, I think as much as anything she is a product of her environment.

Nonetheless, if we are viewing stupid as unaware and totally lacking in the ability to be self-reflective, no matter if the cause is sociocultural or biological, then yes, I do concur. In that context Palin is indeed stupid.



Er... I have no idea at all if I'm making any sense, it has been a long day and it's a bit late here, so it won't surprise me if I'm not :o
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Post by Moonbiter »

Of course you make sense. I just happen to think that Palin is not like a deer in the headlights, more like a hedgehog: Cute but dumb. Lying there on the E18 with her spikes out waiting for that semi, thinking "I'm gonna teach that big galoomp a lesson now!" :rolleyes: :laugh:

Honestly, with only a few hours to go, this election is giving me an ulcer. I haven't been this engaged in US politics in over 20 years. The last time I was sitting on a fishing boat outside Mauritius with not a worry in the world, dead certain that when I came ashore the next president would be named Kerry. :rolleyes:
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Post by dragon wench »

Moonbiter wrote:Of course you make sense. I just happen to think that Palin is not like a deer in the headlights, more like a hedgehog: Cute but dumb. Lying there on the E18 with her spikes out waiting for that semi, thinking "I'm gonna teach that bit galoomp a lesson now!" :rolleyes: :laugh:

Honestly, with only a few hours to go, this election is giving me an ulcer. I haven't been this engaged in US politics in over 20 years. The last time I was sitting on a fishing boat outside Mauritius with not a worry in the world, dead certain that when I came ashore the next president would be named Kerry. :rolleyes:
ROFL! :laugh:


Yes, I know precisely what you mean. The SO and I are in the same situation... constantly checking news sites, watching polls and biting our nails. Everyone I know is the same, I think basically the entire world is waiting with baited breath and tense as Hell.
For me it is also the sense of unreality that accompanies it; even just a decade ago, the thought of a Black president in the US seemed unimaginable, and now we are on the cusp of something that is historic. I find it very sad that it even should be so momentous, race shouldn't be a factor at all, but it is. I feel John Cleese said it best in the video Vicsun posted, by electing Barack Obama the US has the chance to shed its image as a racist backwater.

And speaking of polls, [url="http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/03/poll-update-mccain-on-defense-in-bush-states/"]here[/url] is the latest. Apparently McCain is drawing small crowds in Florida, given the midnight crowd of 35000 that Clinton and Obama attracted there the other night, this helps give me some optimism. Gads, I just want this thing to be over.. my nails are ragged... :rolleyes:
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Post by Moonbiter »

So are mine. Mostly because I did the manly thing and used the wrong program for the washing machine again. All our winter clothing is now size garden-gnome.... :rolleyes: Any bids before my wife comes home? :o

Seriously, the funny thing about this election is that I'm feeling for the Americans. In previous elections I've been worried about the state of the world, but that would hardly change if the republicans won. My concern right now is for the Yanks, because they IMHO sorely need some change.

Anyways, it's only a matter of hours, and despite the sarcasm and seeming levity of this thread at times, I think this is a strong contender for the SYM Awards as best thread in 2008. OY! FINNLAND! SLUTA SUPA NU, PEKKA and get to it! :D
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Post by VonDondu »

Moonbiter wrote:I have to disagree here. She is mindblowingly stupid in the most dangerous way there is: arrogance. She is completely aware of her own lack of sophistication and education, and she's frikkin proud of it! She thinks she's qualified to run a superpower because she's a dumb hockey-mom from Moosewank - Alaska. The worst part of it is that the rest of the yokels think so too. If that ain't stupidity of the worst kind, nothing is.
I don't really disagree with you, but I see it a little differently. Sarah Palin, like most of her comrades, is anti-intellectual, but she still believes that she is more clever than any intellectual. She doesn't take pride in her ignorance; rather, she believes that she can trust her intuition and her instincts no matter what she has to deal with. I know a lot of people like that. Take my mother, for example. She has never attended a cooking class, but she still believes that she can tinker with any professionally-produced recipe and make it better. She doesn't come right out and say it (because she's too humble), but it is obvious that deep down, she believes that she is "smarter" than any professionally-trained chef. Similarly, when she goes to a doctor, she usually doesn't listen to his or her advice, because she thinks she knows what is best for herself. People like my mother and Sarah Palin and other anti-intellectual yokels believe that they can put their faith in their "gut", "common sense", and their God to make the best decisions in the whole world. (George W. Bush is a perfect example, except he actually has a frigging MBA from Harvard.) Sarah Palin doesn't think she needs to study complex issues, or even think about them before she opens her mouth, because she believes that as soon as she speaks, the ideas will simply "come" to her and she will spout great wisdom. You can see the look on her face when she thinks she has uttered a profound, "original" remark.

What distinguishes Sarah Palin from other yokels is that she is far more impressed with herself. She is also much more ambitious than most people (anti-intellectual or not). McCain's advisors have called her a "diva". Her enemies in Alaska think she's a "mean girl" or (more fittingly) a "queen bee". She does have her good points, but with the way things are going now, she might end up proving the old platitude, "Pride goeth before a fall."

dragon wench wrote:In truth I do have some empathy for Palin because I see a little of myself in her...
With all due respect, you do not strike me as the type who is cocky, arrogant, super-aggressive, and full of herself, nor do you seem like the type who "shoots from the hip" and believes, in defiance of reality, that she always hits her target. So I don't see the resemblance to Sarah Palin. :)
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Post by dragon wench »

VonDondu wrote: With all due respect, you do not strike me as the type who is cocky, arrogant, super-aggressive, and full of herself, nor do you seem like the type who "shoots from the hip" and believes, in defiance of reality, that she always hits her target. So I don't see the resemblance to Sarah Palin. :)
lol, thanks ;)
I guess where the big difference lies is that my insecurities haven't made me try to overcompensate :D

OK, just caught [url="http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/02/strategists-predict-obama-victory-big-gains-for-democrats/"]this[/url]... *crossing fingers* *crossing fingers*

It is so extraordinary... Yesterday we were out doing our weekly shop and people all over the grocery store were fervently whispering in hopeful voices "Two more days till Obama is elected.. two more days.."
This election has generated so much excitement everywhere. I've never experienced anything like this before. Canadians are also, I'm guessing, living vicariously through our US neighbours, because our own political landscape is so bleak. Canada desperately needs its own Obama... the last time we had anybody like him was when the late Right Honorable Pierre Elliot Trudeau led the country... *sigh* I didn't think I'd ever wish that Canada actually was the fifty-first state...
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Post by galraen »

dragon wench wrote:*sigh* I didn't think I'd ever wish that Canada actually was the fifty-first state...
Too late, the UK has already bagged number 51, we've had our taxes spent on fighting the US's wars for nigh on two decades now, and we don't even get to vote in the presidential election, or have any voice on Capitol Hill. I'm thinking of starting an independence movement, I think our slogan will be, 'No taxation without representation'.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.

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