Vancouver transit riders tasered for not paying fares (no spam)

[fable]

Check out this. And for a quote:

VANCOUVER — The country's only armed transit police have been tasering passengers who try to avoid paying fares. According to documents provided in response to a Freedom of Information request, police patrolling public transit in the Metro Vancouver area have used tasers 10 times in the past 18 months, including five occasions when victims had been accosted for riding free.

That's pretty damn amazing, at least, when you consider the reputation Canadian's have cultivated in recent years for being the most laid back and permissive folk on the North American continent. But they elected this government, and presumably they want to, um, taser people for don't ante up a few dollars for a ride.

I really like this quote, by the way: "Yesterday, the head of the RCMP admitted the police force did not do a good job making information public about taser use, and vowed that changes will be made." In other words, the problem isn't the tasering, at all! It's not letting people know that tasering was being used. As long as you let people know you've decided to employ a potentially life-threatening form of punishment that is in any case very painful, everything is fine. Including its use against people who are riding a train illegally.

[Tricky]

You have to assume those were some pretty violent incidents.

Well I don't know about Canada, but I think a lot of the transit personnel (bus/train/anything) in the Netherlands would appreciate something a bit more effective than a self-defence course. They've made the news repeatedly over the last few years, although I admit don't really know their current state of affairs. I've always wondered why the subways attract so many violent people.

Whether or not taser use is appropriate, police presence is a good thing. They should do that over here too. There's a lot of private railway security, but no police.

(no spam)

Meanie. Tasers jokes are fun.

[fable]

You have to assume those were some pretty violent incidents.

Look at the article:

In one incident, a non-paying passenger was tasered after he held onto a railing on the SkyTrain platform and refused to let go...On another occasion, a passenger was tasered when he fled from police who found him without a payment receipt during a "fare blitz."

If I read this correctly, and the information included is correct, as well, the only violence offered in at least a few situations was by the police. The fact that it was being used at all, instead of forcible restraint (if it came to that), says quite a bit about the government the Canadians elected for themselves. Don't you think restraint would have worked just fine, without the risk of, oh, I don't know, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dziekański_Taser_incident]death[/url]?

[Moonbiter]

I find it strange that this is going on in Vancouver, one of the most laid-back cities I've ever visited. Then again I have to think along the same lines as Tricky here: Do we automatically assume that not paying the fare was the only thing these people were guilty of? The conditions on the t-train up here in tiny Oslo after 9pm, especially during the weekends, are so bad that we could definitely need some police to tazer half the of the rabid passengers.

[Tricky]

I just look at the numbers. Only 10 cases of violent incidents in one and a half years required taser usage. For a big city like Vancouver, that seems low and I certainly don't expect they simply shot the other 80 offenders. If these ten were the worst, there was probably more to them than meets the eye.

[fable]

I just look at the numbers. Only 10 cases of violent incidents in one and a half years required taser usage.

And before that, none did. Does that mean the people who are resisting arrest have changed, like the guy who violently, viciously kept hold of a rail? Not according to the article: the methods of dealing with resistance have changed. Why?

Tricky, still want want to know why you think simple restraint is a failure.

For a big city like Vancouver, that seems low and I certainly don't expect they simply shot the other 80 offenders.

Ten times in 18 months, where no times in dozens of years before, seems a low increase? Granted, it's not 1000 times, but how much of a change is it to go from "we don't use electronic weapons on people" to "we'll use electronic weapons as a first resort against resistance"?

[Nightmare]

Canadian police are taser-happy. A few months ago, a man died at a Canadian airport after he was tasered repeatedly by the police for, um, being very vocally rude and refusing to move. It sparked a controversy, but I don't think much, if anything, was done.

If anything though, I think public transit could only use more tasers...half public transit riders could probably use a good tasering now and then, myself included.

[dragon wench]

The Vancouver police are very close to being fascists in my view, so none of this is surprising..
This is the same police force that spends all kinds of time needlessly harassing street people in the Downtown Eastside (the Cdn equivalent of a ghetto), and as Nightmare mentioned.. a man was killed by a tasar at Vancouver Airport some time ago. I believe the "inquiry" is still underway. During that incident it was stated by somebody who had served in the police years ago that today's force is poorly trained in actually talking to people. Instead, they are all too ready to reach for their tasers...
All of that being said, some of the people I've encountered while riding Skytrain are a security risk. Somebody once threatened to mug me... though they were all fluff because when I told them to er... "jump of a pier" they backed off.
However, I don't think tasers should be used, they are far too dangerous.

Just out of curiosity Fable, have you lately been on a kick to show up Canada as a sort of poorer cousin to the US in terms of politics and such? (since you also made mention of Harper and his band of thugs in a thread I recently posted).
No worries, Harper, and the Vancouver police disgust me too, I just noticed is all

[Moonbiter]

I've checked it out some more, and it definetly doesn't look good. I can't for the life of me understand why the transit-cops suddenly should need .40 caliber pistols and tazers on top of night sticks and pepper spray, when the crime rate on the metro lines were not going up, and was low to begin with. Unless Vancouver had a major crime explosion during the last 5 years I can't really see a reason for it.

Then again the transit cops remove hundreds of non-paying passengers each week, so I'm guessing the 5 being tazered in connection with not paying the last 18 months must have been pretty non-compliant. I wonder if they should have used the baton or the pepper-spray instead?

"Excuse me, mister rabid-crackhead-sir. Would you rather I bashed your skull in, burned your eyes out or electrocuted you?"

Oh, and what a piece of turgid scandal journalism that Globe and Mail article is.

[dragon wench]

Here is some more information from the CBC, as well as some related stories:

No change to TransLink taser use: police
RCMP accused of misusing Taser on Victoria teen
Commons committee meetings on Taser use closed to public
Dziekanski's mother weeps before committee studying Taser use

[fable]

...and as Nightmare mentioned.. a man was killed by a tasar at Vancouver Airport some time ago. I believe the "inquiry" is still underway. During that incident it was stated by somebody who had served in the police years ago that today's force is poorly trained in actually talking to people. Instead, they are all too ready to reach for their tasers...

I provided a link to that above under the word death, in my second post. Tried to be subtle about it.

Just out of curiosity Fable, have you lately been on a kick to show up Canada as a sort of poorer cousin to the US in terms of politics and such? (since you also made mention of Harper and his band of thugs in a thread I recently posted).
No worries, Harper, and the Vancouver police disgust me too, I just noticed is all

I've just mentioned Canada twice, now. That's hardly being on a kick. It's just a matter of being surprised, is all. Whenever Canada is mentioned here by the kind of blogs and news I read, it's always in reference to your government's sterling pacifism, welfare system, treatment of the disadvantaged, etc. Yet then something like this happens, far worse than anything yet committed by any of the US municipal police forces associated nationally with heavy-handed behavior (LA, Houston, Chicago). What am I supposed to think when this shows up, or Canadians elect for themselves a fresh new northern Bush, after seeing what our Yale-educated oil brat achieved?

[Nightmare]

I provided a link to that above under the word death, in my second post. Tried to be subtle about it.

Ah, right. Missed that, my bad.

I've just mentioned Canada twice, now. That's hardly being on a kick. It's just a matter of being surprised, is all. Whenever Canada is mentioned here by the kind of blogs and news I read, it's always in reference to your government's sterling pacifism, welfare system, treatment of the disadvantaged, etc. Yet then something like this happens, far worse than anything yet committed by any of the US municipal police forces associated nationally with heavy-handed behavior (LA, Houston, Chicago). What am I supposed to think when this shows up, or Canadians elect for themselves a fresh new northern Bush, after seeing what our Yale-educated oil brat achieved?

Well, I guess Canada is good at using our welfare system to exploit the disadvantaged in somewhat of a nonconfrontational manner...or something. Seriously though, Canada's policies have always made just as little sense as the rest of the world, especially in the last couple years. I don't actually blame it all on Harper (though I'm definitely no fan), but rather the entire federal government and all its elected members. I personally think they're all a bunch of juvenile dolts, which is why nothing gets done in our parliament. Its all the same party posturing over and over again, with little results. The only thing that I find gets people fired up, as a university student, is opposition to several pieces of legislation that slip through the cracks, like instituting a more American position on downloading music and the removal of funding from Canadian films that the government finds "offensive", which is really just censorship. Other than that, the vast majority of people I talk to (all 20-somethings like me) are extremely apathetic these days about Canadian politics and where our country is going, even more so than usual. Yay Canada...

[fable]

As a followup, you'll be happy to know that in Edmonton, at least, the police can no longer taser people...while they're asleep.

Simply amazing. If I read the Canadian papers correctly, there seems to be little or no public debate on the subject of tasering as a standard law enforcement procedure (though there definitely is, in Europe and in the United States), and a policeman who tasers two people while they are sleeping gets two weeks' suspension, a scowl, and no psychological counseling.

[Kaer]

That's pretty damn amazing, at least, when you consider the reputation Canadian's have cultivated in recent years for being the most laid back and permissive folk on the North American continent. But they elected this government, and presumably they want to, um, taser people for don't ante up a few dollars for a ride.

If that statement was true, Fable, than they would have used tasers thousands of times. In the articles quoted within the thread regarding the use of tasers it said that they had been used 10 times in 18 months during the course of tens of thousands of interactions and in none of the cases were they used because someone didn't pay.

The statement for the police from the oversight comittees, according to those articles, states that it is suggested that they may have been used in non-violence situations. If true, than I hope that these issues are handled swiftly. Please keep in mind that, at this point, it is only claimed that they have done such -- having had people "claim" me of doing quite a few things and me having to defend it, I take a sour view on people who take terms such as "alleged" and "possibly" and turn them into undeniable facts.

Finally, I am fairly certain that, in this case, this is a provincial case and not a federal one. I'm afraid that trying to pin this on the nation's choice as a whole doesn't work so much as to blame the hippies over in BC for poor choices in their current provincial government. Just because you take a poor view of Harper does not mean that this case will *not* be handled in due course through proper channels and via Canadian law. You are attributing possible abuse by police officers onto the Prime Minister's back, with no other connection than that it is happening in the country he leads (from what I have seen).

In one incident, a non-paying passenger was tasered after he held onto a railing on the SkyTrain platform and refused to let go...On another occasion, a passenger was tasered when he fled from police who found him without a payment receipt during a "fare blitz."

If I read this correctly, and the information included is correct, as well, the only violence offered in at least a few situations was by the police. The fact that it was being used at all, instead of forcible restraint (if it came to that), says quite a bit about the government the Canadians elected for themselves. Don't you think restraint would have worked just fine, without the risk of, oh, I don't know, death?

As mentioned in other articles, this matter is still under investigation. Whether or not these claims are true will be investigated in due course and handled. Incidents like this happen all over the world, not only in Canada -- to consider police officers infallible is foolish, hearing that they may have gone to such extents without proper need is not a surprise and if they have acted inappropriately they will be removed from service.

Personally, I am betting that there is more to this than meets the eye.

And before that, none did. Does that mean the people who are resisting arrest have changed, like the guy who violently, viciously kept hold of a rail? Not according to the article: the methods of dealing with resistance have changed. Why?

A year and a half ago, when this report of 10 cases began, the force was changed from a security force to an actual police force. This changed procedures and regulations across the board, as police are able to deal with violence and problems in a different way than security officers are restricted to.

Ten times in 18 months, where no times in dozens of years before, seems a low increase? Granted, it's not 1000 times, but how much of a change is it to go from "we don't use electronic weapons on people" to "we'll use electronic weapons as a first resort against resistance"?

They do not use them as a first resort against resistance. Even if those two cases quoted are true, the other 8 times would have been used in cases as a last resort. Considering the growth/size of Vancouver as a city and the amount of incidents per year the amount of times it has come to the use of tasers is quite low. Not to mention that Vancouver isn't the safest city in Canada in which to live in, so I doubt you will be dealing with as many nice and friendly Canadians who just want to offer you a slice of back bacon and a pitcher of maple syrup on the side.

During that incident it was stated by somebody who had served in the police years ago that today's force is poorly trained in actually talking to people. Instead, they are all too ready to reach for their tasers...

Mildly interesting, considering the transit police force has an average experince of 18 years per officer.

However, I don't think tasers should be used, they are far too dangerous.

I'd prefer they continue to be used in place of guns. I am in support, of course, of the use of strict guidelines in regards to tasers, do not get me wrong. If this incident turns out to be true, I will be happy to hear stricter guidelines go into use. But I think it's also worth people being reminded that being nealt upon or the use of a baton also can cause death, not to mention that the times people have died from their use, still have a very low ratio. According to the star a few months back, 94% of events were successfully de-escalated because of the presence of a taser in Toronto -- that counts times it was present and not used. 90% in 2007. In most of the cases resulting in deaths, the fault rested in police officers using the weapon multiple times more than what was needed for the situation to be brought under control.

People much smarter than any of us have conducted studies which have found taser use to result in, at worst, mild scraes from falling to the ground, 99.7% of the time -- that's an American research number. There were 5 who were injured that were covered in this study. Two sustained head injuries during the fall, one was admitted to the hospital with rhabdomyolysis, which has not been successfully connected to the use of the taser as of yet, and the final two people died, but the use of the weapon was not connected to their deaths. [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/08/ukcrime.prisonsandprobation"]Article[/url].

The question as to whether or not these devices should be used can be attributed to the benefits. Since use moved out from just use of firearms to other violent cases, the reduction of injuries or deaths which may have occured during altercations has been reduced. If I was being held down, I'd rather be immobilized for a few moments than have my hand broken trying to take swings at a cop. I'd also prefer a few moments of pain and then have it be gone entirely then have scar running down my head because I got hit with a baton -- that pain stays a while.

I think that those times when a cop has overreacted and made use of the weapons multiple times is the important issue here and not the use of tasers. Reports glaze over how many times a taser was used and if the cop should be held responsible to bring up the taboo word - "taser".

Unless Vancouver had a major crime explosion during the last 5 years I can't really see a reason for it.

45 or something violent incidents involving firearms per 100,000 (1000, possibly, I read that article months ago and forget the amount it was out of) last year, beat out Toronto of all places, as one statistic.

I wonder if they should have used the baton or the pepper-spray instead?

"Excuse me, mister rabid-crackhead-sir. Would you rather I bashed your skull in, burned your eyes out or electrocuted you?"

The weapon that can break bones and cause concussions, the one which can cause breathing issues and long term irritation or the one which electrocutes you can can cause injuries as you fall to the ground?

Or we can pull a Canadian stereotype and throw daisies at them, that works too. :laugh:

What am I supposed to think when this shows up, or Canadians elect for themselves a fresh new northern Bush, after seeing what our Yale-educated oil brat achieved?

Well then, comparing Bush to Harper is taking quite a leap there. Especially considering he can't do anything without more than just his party agreeing with him in a minority government.

That's almost as bad as me saying that Obama was voted in just because America wanted to prove they weren't racist. Well, actually, worse.

[Tate]

Just one little thing about the government Canadians have elected...

I hardly think Canada would elect a majority Conservative government if more people would turn out to vote. Not only that, but while the conservatives (not the political party) only have one major party, the liberals (again, the people, not the political party) are split between the Liberal Party, the New Democratic Party, and a small portion towards the Green Party.

I think Canada needs a political race like the recent American one, fraught with media exposure and sensationalism. It is the general opinion of a lot of my friends that Canadian politics are "boring". I know a few people who didn't even realize that we'd had an election, but had an election party on the night Obama was elected.

(I realize it's off-topic, sorry, but I just couldn't resist!)

[Nightmare]

Except that, if anyone's been paying attention to Canadian politics over the last few days (I do, but I'm politics student in Ottawa, so go figure), the recently elected government here might fall as early as Monday. The minority Conservatives tried to pull off some legislation to cripple the opposition parties during a fiscal update centered around the current financial troubles, and the opposition parties might bring down the government on a no-confidence vote and attempt to form a coalition government instead of having an election.

It's plenty sensationalist and there's lots of media coverage, but it doesn't change the fact that, in Canada, the best people to govern are "none of the above" on the ballot.

[fable]

If that statement was true, Fable, than they would have used tasers thousands of times. In the articles quoted within the thread regarding the use of tasers it said that they had been used 10 times in 18 months during the course of tens of thousands of interactions and in none of the cases were they used because someone didn't pay.

(My boldface)

"The country's only armed transit police have been tasering passengers who try to avoid paying fares. According to documents provided in response to a Freedom of Information request, police patrolling public transit in the Metro Vancouver area have used tasers 10 times in the past 18 months, including five occasions when victims had been accosted for riding free."

It can't be clearer than that. You're simply wrong on this count. The point of this thread was to consider the mindset of those members of a bureaucracy so far removed from reality that they actually thought an applied taser was little more than a joke buzzer hidden in somebody's outstretched, welcoming hand.

Finally, I am fairly certain that, in this case, this is a provincial case and not a federal one. I'm afraid that trying to pin this on the nation's choice as a whole doesn't work so much as to blame the hippies over in BC for poor choices in their current provincial government.

Last time I checked, it was a province in Canada. And Canada has a reputation--a reputation it isn't afraid to officially talk up--of being laid back, permissive, and understanding. Tasers don't fit into that, and claiming the government in question was only a part of Canada overlooks the fact that tasers have become standard police issue throughout Canada. There seems to me a contradiction between substance and image, there. If you don't see it, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Just because you take a poor view of Harper does not mean that this case will *not* be handled in due course...

You should take this up with DW, since she mentioned Harper. I don't like him at all, but I didn't discuss him, here.

As mentioned in other articles, this matter is still under investigation.

It would appear that quite a few taser-related deaths and severe injuries are under investigation. But at least one such independent investigation has finished--actually, back in June. It was only released in September, by RCMP Commissioner Elliott. (Why was something so important held back, I wonder? No doubt for the good of humanity.) It concluded after numerous scathing comments that RCMP officials relied far too heavily on information provided by manufacturers when they developed their stun gun policies and training programs. I suspect some will reply that this proves everything is fine; an inquiry was held, and the system is vindicated. But it does nothing of the sort, of course. There are 73 police forces throughout Canada using tasers. Taser use has been linked to the deaths of at least 20 Canadians. Knowing that there is a problem is only the first step in fixing it. It isn't even a step at all, but a parody of one, if people see it in itself as the solution.

Whether or not these claims are true will be investigated in due course and handled.

Unless you actually lead the government and the judiciary branch in Canada, you'll pardon me if I take your assurances with a large truckload of salt. Because exactly the same assurances are handed out by governments everywhere, for everything. Whether the record justifies such immoderate optimism is perhaps less important than your own lack of authority to back such statements.

Incidents like this happen all over the world, not only in Canada -- to consider police officers infallible is foolish, hearing that they may have gone to such extents without proper need is not a surprise and if they have acted inappropriately they will be removed from service.

They may or may not be removed from service; neither you nor I know this. People in the power food chain involved in ethical misconduct have escaped punishment before in Canada, just as they have, elsewhere--in the past, in the present, and probably always will. How many people associated with various successive Alberta governments ever went to prison because of the Sexual Sterilization Act enacted in 1928 and kept on the books through 1972--forcibly sterilizing 2800+ people of below average intelligence? Not a one.

So your assurances that the guilty if any will be found so and punished are, with respect, not the worth the virtual paper they're written on. As much can be said for both the many provincial governments that approved the use of tasers without public discussion of their use and without any public issuance of the results of adequate independent testing, and independent certification training.

Mildly interesting, considering the transit police force has an average experince of 18 years per officer.

Ah, the appeal to experience-as-perfection argument! After all, there are no incompetent, corrupt, or power-on-the-brain politicians, judges, police, etc, who have 10, 20, 30 years or more of august experience. It only takes timeserving to create the perfect public servant, as you so astutely note.

I'd prefer they continue to be used in place of guns. I am in support, of course, of the use of strict guidelines in regards to tasers, do not get me wrong. If this incident turns out to be true, I will be happy to hear stricter guidelines go into use. But I think it's also worth people being reminded that being nealt upon or the use of a baton also can cause death, not to mention that the times people have died from their use, still have a very low ratio. According to the star a few months back, 94% of events were successfully de-escalated because of the presence of a taser in Toronto -- that counts times it was present and not used. 90% in 2007. In most of the cases resulting in deaths, the fault rested in police officers using the weapon multiple times more than what was needed for the situation to be brought under control.

This paragraph deserves to be taken seriously, since you neither adopt a condescending tone nor try to make me believe you speak for the government in it. As such, I can only respond that tasers are more complex than batons as weapons go, and that different conditions (both in the atmosphere, and in individual humans, themselves) can drastically alter the effects of electrical shocks when administered to the human body--even the same body, over a period of time. I am not utterly opposed to the use of tasers, if they can be thoroughly tested in a range of conditions and the results released to and discussed in the public forum--before the taser is ever used. Barring that, with 20 taser-related deaths in Canada alone, I can't help thinking that a moratorium and thorough testing are required. And that if taser implementation is suggested, that the techniques involved be developed and screened by far more than just the taser manufacturers themselves, as has hitherto been the case. (It would be nice, too, if police representatives providing classes in the use and usefulness of tasers to other officers weren't first paid in stock options by taser manufacturers, as was discovered in Arizona, a short while back.)

But once again, the idea that a person who breaks the law by avoiding the payment of fares on public transportation should be tasered in apprehension is so far beyond the bounds of acceptable moral human behavior as to raise all sorts of questions about the bureaucratic chain of command, procedural peer review, and open government.

People much smarter than any of us have conducted studies which have found taser use to result in, at worst, mild scraes from falling to the ground, 99.7% of the time

So after Robert Dziekanski was tasered to death, these unavailable "studies" by "people much smarter than any of us" would have concluded...that he died from a multitude of mild scrapes that got infected? Come on, now: we both know tasers don't simply lead to people acquiring scrapes as they fall to the ground. Administering any deliberate level of electrical shock to the human nervous system is fraught with potential danger. You're reference to nebulous, unnamed experts by saying they're smarter than we are--with the implicit understanding that the shepherds know best, and should never be questioned by the sheep--is a dodge that's worn very, very thin over the years.

Well then, comparing Bush to Harper is taking quite a leap there.

Especially since I didn't write that. You really should consider context.

[Kaer]

Except that, if anyone's been paying attention to Canadian politics over the last few days (I do, but I'm politics student in Ottawa, so go figure), the recently elected government here might fall as early as Monday. The minority Conservatives tried to pull off some legislation to cripple the opposition parties during a fiscal update centered around the current financial troubles, and the opposition parties might bring down the government on a no-confidence vote and attempt to form a coalition government instead of having an election.

Or form a coalition to take control of the government and handle the running of the country until the next election, it seems. If they want to do no-confidence, that's fine, taking control of the government and ruling in it's stead is foolish, imo.

It can't be clearer than that. You're simply wrong on this count. The point of this thread was to consider the mindset of those members of a bureaucracy so far removed from reality that they actually thought an applied taser was little more than a joke buzzer hidden in somebody's outstretched, welcoming hand.

... and I'm saying the police reports state the opposite in these cases, Fable. According to them, they have never been used in any such case. These are allegations which disagree with police reports. I am not wrong, Fable -- the sources of our information are directly contrary to each other. I do not understand why one is more right than the other.

Last time I checked, it was a province in Canada. And Canada has a reputation--a reputation it isn't afraid to officially talk up--of being laid back, permissive, and understanding. Tasers don't fit into that, and claiming the government in question was only a part of Canada overlooks the fact that tasers have become standard police issue throughout Canada. There seems to me a contradiction between substance and image, there. If you don't see it, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yes, and the last time I checked, a state in America is still a state with laws which is regulates independantly, such as varying levels of gun control and gay marriage, both which individual states have been blasted for in the past. Canada is quite similar, in that our provincial government controls this level of policing and therefore it should be on the people of British Columbia to shoulder the shame of anything which comes from this -- and for them to take proper recourse to be sure that, in the case where an officer was in the wrong, that they are handled in due course in accordance to Canadian law. I do not see why connecting this to the federal government had a point other than to mention Harper by name.

While this is a marr on Canada's reputation I am afraid that I did not see a reason to consider this a level of national reputation. I hope that how the world sees us will be viewed in how this situation is investigated and handled by this board of civilian oversights to the police force -- the same folks who had this reported to them and immediately took it upon themselves to make sure that the public was aware that something may have occured which requires investigation.

You should take this up with DW, since she mentioned Harper. I don't like him at all, but I didn't discuss him, here.

You mentioned him by name in quite negative terms in the post I was quoting, so I felt bringing it up and finding out the relation to this situation was prudent. I apologize if you feel I took this thread off topic doing so.

It would appear that quite a few taser-related deaths and severe injuries are under investigation. But at least one such independent investigation has finished--actually, back in June. It was only released in September, by RCMP Commissioner Elliott. (Why was something so important held back, I wonder? No doubt for the good of humanity.) It concluded after numerous scathing comments that RCMP officials relied far too heavily on information provided by manufacturers when they developed their stun gun policies and training programs.

I would agree that the ability to use tasers at different levels of crimes via these policies has widened to a disturbing degree in a short time. I understand that in some cases they were also broadened to include instances where the use of a baton or pepper spray was replaced by the use of tasers. When looking at taser use and considering the variables I am unsure which one I prefer.

There are also thousands of rape cases currently undergoing investigation in LA, including over 10,000 which have actual evidence collected which still requires processing. Going through cases such as possible taser abuse which require witnesses without quantifiable, and often, verifiable evidence is not exactly a cake walk, not to mention that, even though Canadian law is not as bad as American law, you still have to leap through hoops to get anything done in this country.

I suspect some will reply that this proves everything is fine; an inquiry was held, and the system is vindicated. But it does nothing of the sort, of course. There are 73 police forces throughout Canada using tasers. Taser use has been linked to the deaths of at least 20 Canadians. Knowing that there is a problem is only the first step in fixing it. It isn't even a step at all, but a parody of one, if people see it in itself as the solution.

As seen in my other link I provided, taser use in and of itself is not as dangerous as is often implied, it's the man who is behind the taser which causes the risk through improper training, panic and straight out idiocy. Studies have found that the trend of injuries or deaths is linked to the amount of times a taser is used on someone, one of them I linked above. Keeping in mind that tasers are used in place of violent situations where drawing batons or firearms would be necessary also, I feel, has saved lives.

There have been something like 320 deaths worldwide due to taser use, but tasers have been used hundreds of thousands of times in violent situations where both cops and criminals were in situations where their life is at risk. These officers could have used these weapons incorrectly, but if they had not been using tasers, who would say that they would not have used pepper spray, or their baton in their stead. In Calgary, a friend of mine was confronted by a police officer. He's a punk, yes, in every sense of the word, and was accused of stealing the pass by the cop, even though there was no proof and he was only doing it because my friend was a punk. When he refused to hand over the bus pass, the officer beaned him on the head with his baton and dragged him in. He was released once he was brought in but did not press charges on the officer, even though the officers there told him he really should. This happened a short time ago, I understand that the cop is likely to be removed from the force. My question is, what was the difference between a man being struck to the head by these cops with a baton, which could lead to a number of injuries serious enough to cause death, and the use of a taser on him, which, according to many folks, could cause equal consequences?

Unless you actually lead the government and the judiciary branch in Canada, you'll pardon me if I take your assurances with a large truckload of salt. Because exactly the same assurances are handed out by governments everywhere, for everything. Whether the record justifies such immoderate optimism is perhaps less important than your own lack of authority to back such statements.

I don't understand the prudence of deciding that I am correct in that these police officers are wrong when I have no evidence with the exception of articles more interested in taser use than the actual event which occured, Fable, so yes, instead of doing that I am going to hope that the judicial system follows through with their duties. These are allegations -- they could be lies by folks who want to make a quick buck by being able to sue these police officers. I know of waaaaay too many people who have had things said aboout them which they later had to defend against, ranging from academic infractions in university, something which can have you blacklisted from many academic possibilities, to my own mother and ten coworkers being reported for undue conduct within a lab by an angry woman who was fired for consistent competence issues. Neither of these cases were true and were only there because someone decided they didn't like the situation and wanted to make life hell for these people. So I will not blindly assume that these officers have done something wrong which they are being investigated for (by people who will not act according to their positions on the civilian committee and the judicial system of Canada, from your salt comment) on the word of victims which "did no wrong".

I agree that taser use is getting too loose, Fable, but I do not agree with how you seem to be viewing the case in and of itself.

[Kaer]

Sorry, reached the character limit, had about 8,000 characters too many.

So your assurances that the guilty if any will be found so and punished are, with respect, not the worth the virtual paper they're written on. As much can be said for both the many provincial governments that approved the use of tasers without public discussion of their use and without any public issuance of the results of adequate independent testing, and independent certification training.

Taking the opposite extreme and choosing to consider so many folks incapable of doing their jobs is also "not worth the virtual paper it's written on". Taser use, if the public considers it something worthy of discussion, will likely be brought up during the next provincial election. If not, then it won't. Yes, there have been abhorent things in the past in just about all countries, using them as grounds to discredit all further forms of government and the people who lead after them does nothing more than cause a stain on a reputation that those people themselves did not rightly earn.

Ah, the appeal to experience-as-perfection argument! After all, there are no incompetent, corrupt, or power-on-the-brain politicians, judges, police, etc, who have 10, 20, 30 years or more of august experience. It only takes timeserving to create the perfect public servant, as you so astutely note.

Actually, I was referring to the quotee saying that s/he was talking to a police officer who had served years ago about today's, when these guys are not necessarily new with what they are doing either with 18 years of service on average.

This paragraph deserves to be taken seriously, since you neither adopt a condescending tone nor try to make me believe you speak for the government in it.

I recommend not adding tone to my posts in the future then. :laugh: I thought my post sounded quite friendly, complete with a joke or two at Canadian's expense.

I did honestly feel miffed coming in here, because there was a thread of thought going through your posts which just didn't make sense. Specifically, speaking of allegations of something which may have happened as if a conclusion to what happened had been reached. If anything in my posts sounded condescending or like I was acting like I knew what was going on behind the scenes, I would consider it no worse than your own comments essentially declaring this section of the Canadian police force guilty of these actions when all the articles I read called them allegations yet to be proven. If I am wrong in this, I apologize, but when I read my own post I seriously consider them to be fine in that regard.

Had I known you disagreed so heavily with the competence of the Canadian government, I would have responded more in the form of "they have yet to be tried so I'd rather not comment" rather than the way I did. If you want, I'll make more use of the smilies to get my thoughts across a lot more easily. Generally, I'd've hoped my other responses in the forum so far have more cemented the fact that I'm a pretty moderate guy who doesn't like to take the center spot in any discussion.

The mention of those in the Edmonton police force are deserved and it's an instance I agree with you in, for example. I do not feel a similar response is yet required in regards to the folks in Vancouver.

As such, I can only respond that tasers are more complex than batons as weapons go, and that different conditions (both in the atmosphere, and in individual humans, themselves) can drastically alter the effects of electrical shocks when administered to the human body--even the same body, over a period of time. I am not utterly opposed to the use of tasers, if they can be thoroughly tested in a range of conditions and the results released to and discussed in the public forum--before the taser is ever used.

I agree. While they have been tested fairly throughly in the past most of the time they have been in fairly neutral conditions -- this testing which may have been done might not have been extended to any newer models.

As for the public bit, I'm not sure I agree on that one. I feel the need for public opinion on this isn't strictly necessary, even though it would be appreciated. Changing weapons and policies towards what is considered a non-lethal substitute for guns seems to be something which Canadians honestly don't have much of an opinion on. During the last few elections, taser use didn't come up in any debate for any riding or for any level of government I watched. That doesn't mean it should't be brought up, but it just has never reached being a serious center of contention for Canadians, which is unfortunate.

(It would be nice, too, if police representatives providing classes in the use and usefulness of tasers to other officers weren't first paid in stock options by taser manufacturers, as was discovered in Arizona, a short while back.)

Haha, that actually reminds me of some French taser happenings a while back. One guy who was a support for tasers and instructed taser use said he'd been shocked over 50 times to allow someone to demonstrate proper taser use. A government official agreed, and went to have a taser used on him. I heard that the officer ahead of time heard that the official had decided to wear a vest underneath his shirt in the hopes of making the shock less painful. So the officer shot him in the shoulder, outside of the vests range.

I think the fact the guy came expecting to get away with protection sort of shows some government's opinions on taser use. (almost forgot to put the smilie in)

So after Robert Dziekanski was tasered to death, these unavailable "studies" by "people much smarter than any of us" would have concluded...that he died from a multitude of mild scrapes that got infected? Come on, now: we both know tasers don't simply lead to people acquiring scrapes as they fall to the ground. Administering any deliberate level of electrical shock to the human nervous system is fraught with potential danger. You're reference to nebulous, unnamed experts by saying they're smarter than we are--with the implicit understanding that the shepherds know best, and should never be questioned by the sheep--is a dodge that's worn very, very thin over the years.

The study also indicated that multiple use of tasers on an individual target can and will lead to the target's death. As much of the section from that section of my post you referred to, "In most of the cases resulting in deaths, the fault rested in police officers using the weapon multiple times more than what was needed for the situation to be brought under control." This was directly addressed in the article I linked directly assosiated with that section you quoted, Fable, as well as in both the paragraph preceeding it and in the paragraph before the next quote. I do not understand why you specifically took that one line where I stated what injuries occured and did not take into account the additional information provided, or the other arguments posted nearby, where both source and myself say quite clearly stated similar thoughts that the amount of times a taser is shot affects chances of survival.

Robert Dziekanski took two shots within the space of a second. Accounts also said that he was shocked at least twice, implying he might have been hit more. This is in line with thoughts and evidence provided in my post.

I was being facetious when I said the people smarter than us comment, Fable, and again, I did not expect you to take it to the level which you have done so. Viewing everything I said in the worst possible light also grinds very thin, Fable. So is taking my comments out of both tone and context to turn them into something they are not. I am sorry if I sound bitter, but I really am getting to a point of frustration here which I rarely let boards take me, so I apologize for it. The article listed names, such as William Bozeman who lead the independant research team. Here are additional names: J. Tripp Winslow, M.D., M.P.H.; Derrel Graham, M.D.; Brian Martin, M.D.; Joseph J. Heck, D.O.; all of the Department of Emergency Medicine at Wake Forest University; Louisiana State University, Inova Fairfax Hospital (Va.), and University Medical Center (Nev.).

Either way, Fable, making a remark about Shepards know best aside, these people do know more than we do about this topic, unless you happen to have an MD or degree in a medical field. Why would you choose to disregard findings completed using correct methodology? I have known people to have used them out of context before when discussing something with them but this is something which directly relates to taser use and its impacts on deaths done by people who are knowledgeable in the field, so I do not see why it should be disregarded.

Especially since I didn't write that. You really should consider context.

I said that in jest, but since you asked, what possible context could change "a fresh new northern Bush, after seeing what our Yale-educated oil brat achieved" from what I translated it as?

[fable]

A new study that offers fresh evidence for what has been said before: taser weapons cannot be called "safe." (As if any weapon designed for, and used by police is intended to be safe. It's a weapon, of course. Only it's now apparent that it's less controllable than before.) I've already mentioned issues raised by differing human metabolisms, and even by different conditions within the same individual, depending upon time of day, state of fitness, drugs/food/liquid present in the system, etc. Now, from the other side of the equation, we find that tasers themselves are not always firing within an "acceptable" range of electrical discharge:

The study, which authors say tested more Tasers than any previous independent review, examined 44 stun guns being used today by U.S. law-enforcement agencies. It found that four would not fire at all or fired improperly and that four others produced from 47 to 58 percent more power than the manufacturer specified.

This has been the largest study of taser use thus far, and unlike some previous ones, wasn't funded by Taser International, the biggest corporate funder, creator, and supplier of tasers worldwide. Taser International, of course, immediately took the findings to heart:

"We do not recommend (agencies') testing the output," (Taser Chief Executive Officer Tom) Smith said at the hearing.

...or not. After all, TI's information is good enough; let's never, ever challenge it. Waste of taxpayer dollars! But to continue, despite TI's annoyance at the harm this will do to their profits:

CBC hired National Technical Systems, a California-based firm that tests weapons systems for the U.S. military. It found that four of the X26 guns fired more electrical current at their peak than Taser guidelines show is possible for that model. Three other guns didn't fire at all, and one couldn't sustain its current properly. The rest fired within the guidelines.

The tests were based on Taser's own testing protocol and the electrical-load level recommended by Taser. Each stun gun was tested six times and the results were inconsistent, Savard said, raising manufacturing concerns.

Read the entire piece. Food for thought.