Pick pocketing in cRPGs

[C-K'R[PhoEniX]]

So I've been playing some IWD2 and my thief got a level up. Naturally, I invested those skill points into thief skills without thinking. Then it hit me: why do I always put those points into pick pocket skill when I hardly ever (probably never, really) use it?

Well why don't I use it? The best way to find out was to try it out; the halfling thief in my party had an easy job stealing a couple gold pieces from random unimportant NPCs, but when he tried pickpocketing those semi-important ones, I had to reload the game to make it work (his skill wasn't exceptionally low BTW). To get anything worth mentioning from the big shots required a great number of tries (reloads) or it simply wasn't possible at the level of skill my thief had at that point.

This brings me to my question: although it's a neat skill when you think of it, using it in practice is impossible without ruining the idea of RPing or feeling like a cheat even if that aspect of the game isn't a primary one for the individual playing it. To me for example, the game shouldn't be reloaded for as long as there is a single party member alive - that's what makes the whole thing appear more real and fun after all, it sort of alters the experience on each playthrough. It is apparent however that when the whole town turns irrevocably hostile there is little point in going any further.

For these reasons I can't understand why did they put this skill in cRPGs. I don't know how it's handled in tabletop RPGs but I'm sure there is a more elegant solution as to what happens after a failed pick pocket. Feel free to discuss or maybe give me a tip based on your personal experience in using that skill, I'm not exactly sure how to and I'd like to give it a shot this time.

[fable]

Agreement. It's one of those things that people either succeed it or they lose so badly that they go back to a previous save--which completely defeats the point of both gaming, and of experiencing a role. Commonsense leads one to think that the penalty should be severe enough to make a person think twice before attempting thievery; while the potential rewards should be enough to draw one to it, regardless.

The one obvious remedy for this would be to make thievery and its consequences irrevocable, by forcing play in ironman mode. One game, saved only upon exit. The problem is that most of us hate losing main characters on the battlefield after having poured dozens of hours into a game, so this would be counterproductive. What else is possible? Perhaps kicking the player out of that merchant's building/booth for a given period of time? Or raising the likelihood of getting caught with every successful act of thievery--much as you'd expect might happen, if your character's activities were viewed with growing suspicion. This was used in Wizardry 8, if I recall correctly.

Game designers might also limit pickpocketing and shoplifting to things you logically could expect to grab at these times: so no grand axes, broadswords, or crossbows. Anything very expensive would also be locked away in such a manner that it could be viewed and not accessed. Of course, this makes the thievery skill considerably less appealing, so perhaps the skill could be made into a giveaway itself, a reward as your character/team achieves gaming midlevels. Just my two forints.

[BuckGB]

Another solution might be to make the preparation of a theft the only aspect of the crime that can fail or succeed. For example, until you meet the right conditions (successfully hidden, moving silently, the prize is in easy reaching distance), the option to steal/pick pocket won't even become available and, when it does, your success is guaranteed. If you're spotted or otherwise come under suspicion before the theft takes place, then you'd have to wait until your hide/move silently/stealth skill(s) refreshed or some other predetermined amount of time before being able to try again.

To ensure that the player doesn't simply reload and attempt the theft again immediately, the refresh timer could be set up so that reloading doesn't save much time or the game could even be designed to "remember" your skill refresh timers even when loading a different game. Obviously the latter has further implications that would have to be addressed (ie. combat skill timers refresh, but non-combat skill timers don't), but I don't think it would be too difficult to come up with a decent solution.

I realize it's not the most realistic method, but doing something like this would ensure that skillful and/or patient thieves can eventually score their loot without being forced to reload their game over and over again.

[kmonster]

"Everyone turns hostile and the game is over when you fail a pickpocket attempt" like it is in most games isn't really a good solution. Actually no game I played would be worse if they just omitted pickpocketing, if you roleplay you wouldn't do it because of the consequences usually implied and powergamers who reload don't need their game to get even easier. The only players who benefit from this option are noobs who need the game to be easier.

Everyone turning hostile and trying to kill your character on a failed attempt isn't very realistic either.

There are many ways to handle a failed theft without making thievery useless for roleplaying. For example:

- arrest the character or party for a year or so (like in Might&Magic 4), optional getting out for a fee (in most party games you pay a temple to resurrect a dead party member, why should getting caught stealing be worse than dying ?
- you could still tell that it's a misunderstanding (a pickpocket is hard to proof without camera), but would have your repuation drop and make it impossible to steal from someone else in the area since they're suspicious now and aren't friendly to your characters anymore
- you get beaten up to "near death" status
- you get removed from the location and aren't allowed to enter again for some time or forever

One of or a combination of those outcomes wouldn't be hard to implement, the game designers are just too lazy.

[SupaCat]

you wouldn't do it because of the consequences usually implied and powergamer who reload don't need their game to get even easier.
The only players who benefit from this option are noobs who need the game to be easier.

What a strange logic.

I've been re-writing my arguments over and over, and I gave up, mostly because I just can't seem to decent sentesces right now and because the arguments against your statement seem pretty obvious.

I think the flue is coming.

Nice observation By The Way C-K'R[PhoEniX]

[C-K'R[PhoEniX]]

Well I'm glad I don't seem to be the only one who finds there is something flawed in the pock pocket skill system that is present in games using the Infinity engine.

BuckGB and fable had pretty imaginative ideas on how to manage this problem differently, though I can see why the game creators might have opted for the current solution instead.
Getting a pick pocket skill as a "reward" at higher lvls seems a bit silly to me; after all, there should be more common thieves with just that ability, than backstabbing, swashbuckling, magic-item-using super assassins around.
The idea of implementing refresh timers is clever but it would probably leave room for bugs and unhappy gamers. Besides, with all due respect I don't think such a crude adaptation would be very much in the spirit of roleplaying.

Maybe I'm simply being a nitpick. Infinity engine cRPGs are complex, well-thought out and present an incredibly balanced challenge for everyone. Plenty of room is left for replaying as well. Because they rely on a set of rules that are practically copied from D&D RPGs as opposed to the ones that the other ones are using, these cRPGs have done a damn good job in so many aspects of the game - everything happens for a reason which has a very detailed explanation. So what I've only just realized is that in this nigh flawless mechanism there is this poorly handled non-bug related issue that cannot be "explained" or supported by a notion suggesting the game devs had a reason for making it just as it is - the pick pocket system here simply sucks.

As kmonster has listed, there are far less subtle cRPGs that have handled this properly:

Gothic 1&2: Upon a failed pick pocket attempt you are simply "beat up". Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you oppose your irritated to-be-victim in a fight, others around you will join in and make sure justice is carried out. If there is no one watching, you likely won't have to worry about the latter. After a while the parties involved would simply forget about the incident. If the opponent is a bad-tempered one or a higher ranking member of a community (e.g. paladin or a guard in the colony) you could also get killed (though I may be wrong here). Also, in Gothic 2 you must pay a fine to a militia leader or such if there is word of you misbehaving. Note: you can't steal armor in these games which makes sense.
Here we have a damn fine pick pocket system if you ask me.

The Elder Scrolls: The bounty system. You get caught - you must pay a bounty or get imprisoned. Oppose and you will likely face a certain death for the guards in these games are numerous and tough. But, there is still a chance you could go hiding away from the civilization or "erase" the bounty for a smaller fine in one of the thieves guild (this only happens if you're a member as I recollect). This leaves time and possibility to explore the wilderness and somehow attain enough money to pay for your crimes. Now say what you want but I've had an outright, guilt-free fun stealing in TES3 and TES4 (bit less in TES2). It seldom occurred to me I was cheating or doing something unusual.

Gothic's system would be a bit unorthodox for a D&D game but I don't see why TES' (or at least a similar one) wouldn't work in IWD or BG. I've done some thinking and I think I know why this isn't the case. While gaming experience in TES tends to get imbibed with powergaming sooner or later (this I find to be the greatest flaw about these games), Black Isle's RPGs obviously hold the idea of challenge much higher. The joy of meeting a certain Kangaax early in the game and not being able to beat him with any means available or trying to attack a powerful "goodie" like Hrothgar in the beginning of IWD1 and being flattened would likely be compromised by manageable-pick pocketing.

It is my opinion therefore that the creators of these games intentionally made this approach to the game repulsive. You can do it, but that can't and won't be how you'll complete the game. For this reason probably, this skill has never been something I'd considered using and as far as I can tell from the comments other people who hold any value to roleplaying haven't given it much use either.

Phew, that came out longer than I'd thought.