I'm looking at implementing two pretty profound fixes in the upcoming Fixpack (probably released as soon as this is implemented and tested) that would radically alter how the game is played, and I'm looking for opinions on the issue.
The two fixes are:
1) TNO gains 1-10 hit points upon attaining a new level regardless of what class he's in. This is how the manual says it's supposed to work.
2) TNO's base THACO and number of attacks would be based on the current class you're in, not the best THACO between all your classes.
This would make it no longer pretty much absolutely necessary to play the first 9-13 levels (which is over 50% of the game) as a fighter. Throw out every player guide/leveling tips you ever heard. It would be much better to just pick the class you want to play as early as you can and stay in it throughout the game, rather than always playing fighter, fighter-mage or fighter-thief.
I think this would greatly improve gameplay (and make the manual actually be correct). What do you all think? I have a poll about this on my forums, please feel free to vote and chime in.
Profound changes - your thoughts. Please read. - Spellhold Studios
Qwinn
Major change to upcoming Fixpack
Honestly, I think they're both bad ideas. The manual shouldn't dictate how the game is played, the game should dictate how the manual is written.
The THAC0-issue is especially bad. It was one of the reasons to play around with switching classes, instead of choosing and staying in one. This is a large part of the fun for me. They way classes work now further marks how special TNO is.
If yo do decide to include them, please include an option to NOT install them. (Like most Infinity mods do.)
The THAC0-issue is especially bad. It was one of the reasons to play around with switching classes, instead of choosing and staying in one. This is a large part of the fun for me. They way classes work now further marks how special TNO is.
If yo do decide to include them, please include an option to NOT install them. (Like most Infinity mods do.)
I'm now considering the two ideas separately. The THACO change is tabled for now, but the Consistent HP thing probably is still going in. See the thread for more detail on why the THACO idea got tabled for the moment.
"The manual shouldn't dictate how the game is played, the game should dictate how the manual is written."
I don't find this argument persuasive at all. EVERY single last potential bug must be evaluated to determine if it matches the designer's -intent-. You can't get much more determinative of the intent then what it says in the manual (which I quoted in the thread in question). This is not to say that the manual is always right and the game is always wrong - far from it. The manual makes a lot of mistakes in the tables and stuff, but this isn't a typo in a table, this is actually spelled out in a plain english description of how it's supposed to work. When determining intent, one also needs to examine how likely this bug would be to occur "randomly". In this case, this is a -very- likely bug to take place, regardless of their intent, based on IE engine limitations.
Given what it says in the manual, can you give me any reason to believe that it was -intended- to work this way, other than that's the way it actually does? If that is the case, if you give overriding "if that's the way it is in game, then that's the way it was intended and must remain" consideration to the status quo, then that argument could be made to contest every last single bug in the game that any mod or fixpack has ever fixed. Lots of things are clearly identifiable as bugs, and I fix them, and I don't usually have the manual explicitly telling me how it was supposed to work. So - again - treating this as one would treat any observable behavior in the game, can you give me an argument for saying "it was meant to be that way" that couldn't also be applied to any other bug fix by any mod ever?
Qwinn
"The manual shouldn't dictate how the game is played, the game should dictate how the manual is written."
I don't find this argument persuasive at all. EVERY single last potential bug must be evaluated to determine if it matches the designer's -intent-. You can't get much more determinative of the intent then what it says in the manual (which I quoted in the thread in question). This is not to say that the manual is always right and the game is always wrong - far from it. The manual makes a lot of mistakes in the tables and stuff, but this isn't a typo in a table, this is actually spelled out in a plain english description of how it's supposed to work. When determining intent, one also needs to examine how likely this bug would be to occur "randomly". In this case, this is a -very- likely bug to take place, regardless of their intent, based on IE engine limitations.
Given what it says in the manual, can you give me any reason to believe that it was -intended- to work this way, other than that's the way it actually does? If that is the case, if you give overriding "if that's the way it is in game, then that's the way it was intended and must remain" consideration to the status quo, then that argument could be made to contest every last single bug in the game that any mod or fixpack has ever fixed. Lots of things are clearly identifiable as bugs, and I fix them, and I don't usually have the manual explicitly telling me how it was supposed to work. So - again - treating this as one would treat any observable behavior in the game, can you give me an argument for saying "it was meant to be that way" that couldn't also be applied to any other bug fix by any mod ever?
Qwinn
Well, Wizards do only get 1d4 HP, while Thieves get 1d6 and Fighters 1d10. Those are the D&D 2nd edition rules. You get them when you level up, and you get to keep them.
THAC0 represents your fighting abilities, and you shouldn't lose them because you become another class. It doesn't make sense.
Granted, it doesn't work like this in Dualclassing per 2nd D&D rules, but TNO doesn't Dualclass either, since he can freely return and use more than two classes.
About the manual thing: all too often it gets printed way before the game goes in to its final stage, with the latest changes being mentioned in the readme. (Lionheart for example.)
I just think that this is one of those many things. If it really was intended, it would have been noticed, since it's quite obvious and uniform. It isn't a bug that needs a specific setup te recreate, it just happens because the game is written that way.
THAC0 represents your fighting abilities, and you shouldn't lose them because you become another class. It doesn't make sense.
Granted, it doesn't work like this in Dualclassing per 2nd D&D rules, but TNO doesn't Dualclass either, since he can freely return and use more than two classes.
About the manual thing: all too often it gets printed way before the game goes in to its final stage, with the latest changes being mentioned in the readme. (Lionheart for example.)
I just think that this is one of those many things. If it really was intended, it would have been noticed, since it's quite obvious and uniform. It isn't a bug that needs a specific setup te recreate, it just happens because the game is written that way.
That's just it. This isn't something that's just "written" like the content of the game is. This is -within the game engine-, and Black Isle didn't create the engine, Bioware did. The guys at Black Isle just leased the engine, and believe me, I've already discovered dozens of ways in which they clearly did (or didn't) do stuff because of engine limitations. Their ability to tweak the engine wasn't non-existent, but it was clearly limited.
Anyways, I'm more than happy to continue the conversation, and grateful for your input, but I'd prefer to keep it in one place... this post (as well as the ones at SP and Gamespot) were more to direct people to that forum thread so they could chime in on the issue there than to spark multiple independent discussions about it all over the web
Qwinn
Anyways, I'm more than happy to continue the conversation, and grateful for your input, but I'd prefer to keep it in one place... this post (as well as the ones at SP and Gamespot) were more to direct people to that forum thread so they could chime in on the issue there than to spark multiple independent discussions about it all over the web
Qwinn
You know the Engine better than me, so I won't argue on that point.
Well, providing a link to the thread where you want discussion to be focused, would be helpful.
I probably won't go over there, since it would entail registering and such on yet another site, and I'm too lazy for that.
Forcing the THAC0 change would be a reason for me to stop using the Fixpack, since it would take more than it gives to me.
Well, providing a link to the thread where you want discussion to be focused, would be helpful.
I probably won't go over there, since it would entail registering and such on yet another site, and I'm too lazy for that.
Forcing the THAC0 change would be a reason for me to stop using the Fixpack, since it would take more than it gives to me.
I did give a link, it's just above my signature in the first post. And I'm pretty sure you can post as a Guest there.
I think I gave a pretty damn good argument for why the THACO thing is broken in my last post to that thread just now, let's see what you can counter it with.
And btw... what you say enhances the game for you, makes it less fun for me. The way it stands, the "best" path is too obvious, so obvious that there's really no other viable option, and I wind up doing the same thing every game. I am more entertained at the thought of getting to play the game three times as three actually totally different characters with different strengths than I am to always playing a kensai-mage.
I realize that the THACO change would be a nerf. But there will always be people who oppose any change that counts as a nerf, no matter how obviously necessary it is. Giving too much deference to that view means that every fix winds up only making the characters more powerful, and eventually the game is broken because it's simply too easy. I fix things that need fixing regardless of if they make your character weaker or stronger based on the merits of the fix itself, and as such my Fixpack and other mods do quite a bit in both directions, and I think it results in a very good balance, personally.
Qwinn
And I'm pretty sure you can post as a Guest there.I think I gave a pretty damn good argument for why the THACO thing is broken in my last post to that thread just now, let's see what you can counter it with.
And btw... what you say enhances the game for you, makes it less fun for me. The way it stands, the "best" path is too obvious, so obvious that there's really no other viable option, and I wind up doing the same thing every game. I am more entertained at the thought of getting to play the game three times as three actually totally different characters with different strengths than I am to always playing a kensai-mage.
I realize that the THACO change would be a nerf. But there will always be people who oppose any change that counts as a nerf, no matter how obviously necessary it is. Giving too much deference to that view means that every fix winds up only making the characters more powerful, and eventually the game is broken because it's simply too easy. I fix things that need fixing regardless of if they make your character weaker or stronger based on the merits of the fix itself, and as such my Fixpack and other mods do quite a bit in both directions, and I think it results in a very good balance, personally.
Qwinn
Well, you're looking for opinions, not people who reinforce your idea. But since I detest the "My opinion is as good as yours, and I happily ignore facts" answer, I'll elaborate.Qwinn wrote: And btw... what you say enhances the game for you, makes it less fun for me. The way it stands, the "best" path is too obvious, so obvious that there's really no other viable option, and I wind up doing the same thing every game. I am more entertained at the thought of getting to play the game three times as three actually totally different characters with different strengths than I am to always playing a kensai-mage.
Qwinn
I see your point, though, that in the current state Fighter 13/Thief something/Mage 22 is by far the best way to go.
But if it went to "regular" Dualclassing THAC0, I'd just stick to one class and never bother with any others, which destroys a part of PS:T's uniqueness to me.
P.S.: I totally overlooked the link, sorry!
This may be late, but these changes seem to me to be something to add to the Tweak pack, so people can install them or not at their choosing. I personally probably wouldn't, but other people would...why not give them the choice?
To me, they seem to be more like tweaks rather then bug fixes like most of the fixpack.
To me, they seem to be more like tweaks rather then bug fixes like most of the fixpack.
If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.
This has been extensively discussed over at my forums as well as over at RPG Codex.
The reply is because they really are absolutely confirmed honest to God fixes. The game really was supposed to work this way. Not only do we have Chris (PS:T lead designer) Avellone's agreement on both matters, this is also how it was supposed to work according to the game manual.
From the game manual, re the Hit Point bug:
From the game manual, re the Class-Based THACO bug:
Qwinn
The reply is because they really are absolutely confirmed honest to God fixes. The game really was supposed to work this way. Not only do we have Chris (PS:T lead designer) Avellone's agreement on both matters, this is also how it was supposed to work according to the game manual.
From the game manual, re the Hit Point bug:
Incidentally, both parts of that paragraph are being fixed. You will now always gain hp as a fighter in your highest level class, AND you will no longer gain 1hp when levelling in other classes. The second part of that was making up the mage/thief shortfall on hp -and- giving fighters significantly more hp than they were supposed to have.The Nameless One only gains hit points when he gains a level in a class that's higher than the maximum level he's achieved in any of his other classes. For example, he starts off as a level three fighter and a level one mage and thief. When he gains enough experience to become a second level mage, he won't get any more hit points because his mage level (two) is still lower or equal to his fighter level (three). When the Nameless One gains an experience level higher than three, then he'll start to accrue more hit points (always 1-10 hit points per level.)
From the game manual, re the Class-Based THACO bug:
In light of that sentence (and the fact that every -other- ability in game is consistent with that sentence, within game engine limitations), a Fixpack that still permits a level 3 mage to be significantly better at melee combat than a level 15 fighter is incomplete.The Nameless One only gets experience in the class he is currently a member of — he switches classes by talking to people in the game. Furthermore, he cannot access any of the other classes’ abilities when he is specializing in one of the classes.
Qwinn
No, he didn't say "it's not a bug" on that one, but you're right insofar as he didn't say it -is- a bug either. He just said it made sense from a balance point of view, stated a potential aesthetic problem with it, and replied "Fair enough" when pointed out that what he was objecting to was already part of the game in regards to every other class ability, and (seeing as how I'm looking deeply into it and he doesn't have the time to) allowed me to make the call.
And that was before I could offer him the evidence from the game manual, seeing as how I wasn't aware of it myself then. I suspect adding the manual information would make him willing to go further as to calling it a bug, but I'm not going to bother him again, he said he'd let me make the call and that's enough.
And I'm sorry you'll refuse to play it. I know you said that this would strip TNO of his "uniqueness", but it seems to me that multi-class characters aren't very unique in D&D games, and that's effectively what this bug made him. I think applying the fix will actually make him unique, and how all in-game and manual evidence besides the bug itself points to how he was meant to be.
Qwinn
And that was before I could offer him the evidence from the game manual, seeing as how I wasn't aware of it myself then. I suspect adding the manual information would make him willing to go further as to calling it a bug, but I'm not going to bother him again, he said he'd let me make the call and that's enough.
And I'm sorry you'll refuse to play it. I know you said that this would strip TNO of his "uniqueness", but it seems to me that multi-class characters aren't very unique in D&D games, and that's effectively what this bug made him. I think applying the fix will actually make him unique, and how all in-game and manual evidence besides the bug itself points to how he was meant to be.
Qwinn
Besides, CA -did- confirm that the hit point thing is a bug, so that one absolutely has to be fixed. Fixing that without fixing the THACO bug, however, would make the imbalance created by the THACO bug exponentially worse, and that makes the THACO issue even more obviously a bug. I would not be willing to fix the HP bug without also fixing the THACO bug, it would just break the game worse. They pretty much have to go together.
Qwinn
Qwinn
I'm attracted to Fighter/Mages.
It's your Fixpack, so nobody but you decides what goes in it. I'm just surprised that it doesn't come with a Weidu installer, which would make it very easy (I suppose?) to make it optional. Afterall, people who choose to play "unbalanced" games are only doing that to themselves.
It's your Fixpack, so nobody but you decides what goes in it. I'm just surprised that it doesn't come with a Weidu installer, which would make it very easy (I suppose?) to make it optional. Afterall, people who choose to play "unbalanced" games are only doing that to themselves.
It does come with a WeiDU installer. I could make it optional if I chose. I choose not to. Given the tremendous amount of evidence (every in game dialogue, the manual, every other mechanic in game being consistent with the dialogue and the manual, CA's responses, and the fact that fixing them dramatically improves class balance), there is no doubt in my mind that these things are bugs that absolutely need fixing and are required for a balanced game. It is not the mission of the Fixpack to enable selective exploits.
To leave those bugs in is to make every class trainer in game a liar. Should I rewrite all their dialogues so that when they say "You must leave the way of the Warrior" when you change classes away from fighter, instead they say "You must give up some useless weapon types but otherwise you're actually better than a warrior now cause you can wear better AC as a mage, have fun."?
Qwinn
To leave those bugs in is to make every class trainer in game a liar. Should I rewrite all their dialogues so that when they say "You must leave the way of the Warrior" when you change classes away from fighter, instead they say "You must give up some useless weapon types but otherwise you're actually better than a warrior now cause you can wear better AC as a mage, have fun."?
Qwinn
If you want to change TNO's THAC0 whenever he changes his class, then you should also change his weapon proficiencies, since they have a dramatic effect on his combat ability. For example, he should start with only one proficiency point when he becomes a 1st level Mage, and then he should gain another proficiency point at 6th level and so forth, exactly like other Infinity Engine games based on Second Edition rules. When TNO's Mage level exceeds his Fighter level by at least one level, I think he should recover all of his abilities from his Fighter class, just like any other dual-classed character. I don't see any reason why he shouldn't.Qwinn wrote:Besides, CA -did- confirm that the hit point thing is a bug, so that one absolutely has to be fixed. Fixing that without fixing the THACO bug, however, would make the imbalance created by the THACO bug exponentially worse, and that makes the THACO issue even more obviously a bug. I would not be willing to fix the HP bug without also fixing the THACO bug, it would just break the game worse. They pretty much have to go together.
Qwinn
There is ample in-game and manual evidence that weapon proficiencies were intended to work as they do for all classes. It is in fact because of our respect for that specific intent that TNO's number of attacks will continue to be determined by fighter level and active in all his classes... this is due to an unavoidable engine limitation (or, at least, very difficult to change).
We could fix the Mage-Gets-Fighter-Number-Of-Attacks issue right now anyway, and make him not gain number of attacks from his fighter levels as a thief or mage, but then we'd have to disable bonuses from weapon proficiencies too, and as that has been deemed intended, we're not going to go that far. So, yes, TNO will still gain that benefit from the fighter class in all classes, just not practically -all- of them.
It is that same limitation, by the way, that explains why Swashbucklers in BG2 can specialize in thief weapons but do not gain the extra number of attack bonus that should go with it. They couldn't give them the proficiency bonus without also giving them the bonus fighter attacks at level 7 and 13. It's either both or neither in that regard. Since the intent was that TNO is supposed to get the bonus from proficiencies, the designers decided to go with "both" for him, and I'm respecting that intent as well.
That limitation is also why Ignus and Fall from Grace, as the only two non-fighter NPC's, never get more than one proficiency point. If they did, they'd have to get fighter number of attacks as well.
Fighters DO still get to specialize -more- than other classes, if you specialize in that class at 7 and 12. If you don't do that, you max out at 3 proficiencies. It appears to me that that was their decision on how to deal with the limitation. Works for me.
The intent isn't to make him compliant with 2nd Ed. D&D rules (though in bug issues where there isn't enough evidence of designer intent to determine one way or the other, that's what we will go with). TNO clearly is meant to break all sorts of 2nd Ed. rules. The intent is to make him operate under the rules that the designers intended, and in the issues in question, the designer's intent was quite clear. And from the previously cited evidence, the intent was that TNO is not a dual class or a multi-class character... he is single class, but due to his unique history he can switch back and forth between three classes. He is unique. As a multiclass fighter mage, he really isn't.
I know that's a lot of explanation to go through... sorry, hope I explained it non-confusingly enough.
Qwinn
We could fix the Mage-Gets-Fighter-Number-Of-Attacks issue right now anyway, and make him not gain number of attacks from his fighter levels as a thief or mage, but then we'd have to disable bonuses from weapon proficiencies too, and as that has been deemed intended, we're not going to go that far. So, yes, TNO will still gain that benefit from the fighter class in all classes, just not practically -all- of them.
It is that same limitation, by the way, that explains why Swashbucklers in BG2 can specialize in thief weapons but do not gain the extra number of attack bonus that should go with it. They couldn't give them the proficiency bonus without also giving them the bonus fighter attacks at level 7 and 13. It's either both or neither in that regard. Since the intent was that TNO is supposed to get the bonus from proficiencies, the designers decided to go with "both" for him, and I'm respecting that intent as well.
That limitation is also why Ignus and Fall from Grace, as the only two non-fighter NPC's, never get more than one proficiency point. If they did, they'd have to get fighter number of attacks as well.
Fighters DO still get to specialize -more- than other classes, if you specialize in that class at 7 and 12. If you don't do that, you max out at 3 proficiencies. It appears to me that that was their decision on how to deal with the limitation. Works for me.
The intent isn't to make him compliant with 2nd Ed. D&D rules (though in bug issues where there isn't enough evidence of designer intent to determine one way or the other, that's what we will go with). TNO clearly is meant to break all sorts of 2nd Ed. rules. The intent is to make him operate under the rules that the designers intended, and in the issues in question, the designer's intent was quite clear. And from the previously cited evidence, the intent was that TNO is not a dual class or a multi-class character... he is single class, but due to his unique history he can switch back and forth between three classes. He is unique. As a multiclass fighter mage, he really isn't.
I know that's a lot of explanation to go through... sorry, hope I explained it non-confusingly enough.
Qwinn
If anyone here is still interested, there's a sneak peek of the new version's ReadMe and full changelog available here:
New Fixpack 3.0 Readme - Sneak Peek - Spellhold Studios
Qwinn
New Fixpack 3.0 Readme - Sneak Peek - Spellhold Studios
Qwinn