Why does Martin get all the credit?

King Malus · Post by **King Malus** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:21 am

Every time i have finished the main quest, i always find it hilarious that everyone is talking about martin. as if he could have gotten the amulet without you! and if any of his fans could have heard him during the last quest! he was the one who panicked in the end about mehrunes dagon being in tamriel, and it was the PC (player character) who had to prod his brain to remember that the amulet is divine! he also does something very close to complaining (after he makes his awkward speech) about how everyone is expecting him to know what to do and how to behave. Even when the PC is about to give him the amulet, martin does this dramatic "if i am Uriels son...", then once he puts it on, hes all like, "i didnt need the amulet to tell me that im uriels son.." sigh. dont get me wrong, Sean Bean did an amazing job portraying martin, but honestly...

and that was my minor rant on martin septim, feel free to add anything

on a dramatic change of subject, i wonder if Elder Scrolls V will bring him back (i know i was just ranting, but i am curious). if anyone has read the journal entry on what happened in the temple, you will notice that the PC isnt sure whether martin is dead or if he has turned into a god... no lies, it would be rather interesting...

SupaCat · Post by **SupaCat** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:34 am

King Malus wrote:, Sean Bean did an amazing job portraying martin,

Seriously? I've never heard such boring monologues as those from Martin.

King Malus wrote: on a dramatic change of subject, i wonder if Elder Scrolls V will bring him back (i know i was just ranting, but i am curious).

(Pretty) sure he's dead.

It was also one of my complaints about Oblivion, I do everything and HE gets all the credit???

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:06 pm

King Malus wrote:Every time i have finished the main quest, i always find it hilarious that everyone is talking about martin. as if he could have gotten the amulet without you! and if any of his fans could have heard him during the last quest! he was the one who panicked in the end about mehrunes dagon being in tamriel, and it was the PC (player character) who had to prod his brain to remember that the amulet is divine! he also does something very close to complaining (after he makes his awkward speech) about how everyone is expecting him to know what to do and how to behave. Even when the PC is about to give him the amulet, martin does this dramatic "if i am Uriels son...", then once he puts it on, hes all like, "i didnt need the amulet to tell me that im uriels son.." sigh. dont get me wrong, Sean Bean did an amazing job portraying martin, but honestly...

and that was my minor rant on martin septim, feel free to add anything

on a dramatic change of subject, i wonder if Elder Scrolls V will bring him back (i know i was just ranting, but i am curious). if anyone has read the journal entry on what happened in the temple, you will notice that the PC isnt sure whether martin is dead or if he has turned into a god... no lies, it would be rather interesting...

But the player character didn't sacrifice him/herself to save Tamriel, did s/he?

And actually, to me, Martin comes over as a very human sort of man; full of faults and self-doubt, but in the end courageous and self-sacrificing. He COULD have done a runner at any time in the story, but instead he spent his time trying to solve the problem, and finally gave his life. The player character wouldn't have had a clue what to do if Martin hadn't told him/her.

And no, he's not likely to be back; it's pretty obvious Martin died.

Sir Twist · Post by **Sir Twist** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:34 am

Actually you eventually get accolades about being with Martin, at the end, and you are recognized as the hero who saved the imperial city, etc. I think you become regent, or something like that, to raise up a new emperor. Or even become the emperor/empress, since no one else is stepping up to the plate. Unless I miss my guess, Martin didn't have any kids. Well, that's my speculation on this, so far. If I am wrong, I am, if I am right, I am, as well.

SupaCat · Post by **SupaCat** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:33 pm

Sir Twist wrote: Unless I miss my guess, Martin didn't have any kids.

There aren't any children left with the divine blood of the Septime line (or something like that, never liked that part of the Elders scroll world). It's the problem that Martin point out at the end of the game, in the movie following his dead. What will happen after that? Maybe a republic will be made, or simply a goverment rulling.

Quick Question: What kind of govermentform is there in Elders Scrolls? I mean, when the king dies, there is 1 Battlemage rulling the empire (Council? Have you ever seen more than 1 person walk out of the council room?) Is it me, or does it look alot like a dictatorship in form of a very, very old monarch form?

King Malus · Post by **King Malus** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:32 pm

SupaCat wrote:There aren't any children left with the divine blood of the Septime line (or something like that, never liked that part of the Elders scroll world). It's the problem that Martin point out at the end of the game, in the movie following his dead. What will happen after that? Maybe a republic will be made, or simply a goverment rulling.

Quick Question: What kind of govermentform is there in Elders Scrolls? I mean, when the king dies, there is 1 Battlemage rulling the empire (Council? Have you ever seen more than 1 person walk out of the council room?) Is it me, or does it look alot like a dictatorship in form of a very, very old monarch form?

i think, SupaCat, that the empire has now become a republic, at least for now. Though i do agree it does look like a dictatorship with only ocato around. i suppose someone must have missed the fact that there might be a few council members around. or more probably they've all gone home because of the crisis? i guess we will all see what happens in elderscrolls V. *light bulb over head* maybe in the next installment, the PC will help the empire get a new emperor. or even become the emperor! but where would they set the story? they've already done Cyrodiil.

Geez, you'd think that such an empire would come up with some sort of failsafe if all of the Septim blood was destroyed. and i mean something permanent, not a random person like martin pretty much was. or even, you'd think martin might have the forsight to name you the new leader right before he dies(? you never know, they could bring him back in the form of god or saint, because the chancelor did say that martin was a hero to "rival Tiber Septim". and Tiber Septim did become Talos... who knows).

SupaCat · Post by **SupaCat** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:05 pm

King Malus wrote: not a random person like martin pretty much was.t

Actually, I don't think you can call Martin a random person, he simply was the last of the bloodline. Why didn't he quickly make some children? I mean, he should know it all stands and falls with him.

For elders scrolls 5, I'd like to see the decline of the Empire, with all provences fighting for independence (kinda like the fall of the Roman Empire). Would be nice as backstory.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:32 pm

It was obviously a Monarchy. And there were other Council members, but Ocato made it plain they were away dealing with the provinces, apart from a central few (not in evidence, as noted).

Martin's dad had the foresight to engender an illegitimate son and keep him secret and safe until needed. But Martin didn't know who he was (until your character told him, by which time it was a bit late), so he didn't. He certainly thought he was the last of the line. And anyway, after the destruction of the Amulet, no more of his line are needed.

It will be interesting to see how the story deals with the rulership issue in future Elder Scrolls games - if it IS dealt with.

Sir Twist · Post by **Sir Twist** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:52 pm

I have a couple what if's here. What if Martin isn't the only illegitimate person around that can take the throne? What if the Amulet of the Kings isn't the only way to light the dragon fires?

SupaCat · Post by **SupaCat** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:22 pm

Sure, you can go with 'ifs', but you have to work with the information Bethesda gives you. If Bethesda pulled the tricks you just gave, then they're not even trying to make a decent tale. Oblivion would also be a pretty useless chapter in the Elders scrolls since all what was said in that game would be... false.

While I'm guilty of this too, we're going off-topic here.

Reading the other post, I would think Martin does indeed deserve credit, I mean, he was just a freaking priest and in few days they want him to save the world. With his sacrifice Martin has immortalized himself and ofcourse people are going to praise the dead guy more than you. That's just how people are.

And anyway, after the destruction of the Amulet, no more of his line are needed.

Where did you read that?

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:02 pm

:
And anyway, after the destruction of the Amulet, no more of his line are needed.

Where did you read that?

I didn't. It's implicit in the storyline. "As long as your line and the amulet are joined... and the dragonfires are kept burning, Tamriel will be safe from Oblivion." (or words to that effect).
Therefore, since the Amulet is destroyed, and the dragonfires no longer need to be kept burning, and Tamriel is permanently safe from Oblivion, there is no need for a monarch in Septim's line. Seems pretty obvious to me.

SupaCat · Post by **SupaCat** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:27 pm

I'm actually concerned about my memory since I don't recall any of that stuff

.

With Tamriel permanetly safe from Oblvion, how the hell is conjuration going to work in the following games?

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:03 pm

Who said Tamriel is permanently safe from Oblivion? Apart from Martin that is? Did Chancellor Ocato confirmthis?

There's already one mod (Endrek Saar's Servant of the Dawn) that theorises that Martin in fact left Tamriel wide open, and not safe at all. Anyone capable of coming up with a plot for TES 5 will have no trouble proving Martin wrong if that is her/his desire. Remember Martin wasn't exactly the smartest guy on the planet, he got the job because of his genes, not his brains! Same is true of many monarchs, both in real life and fantasy of course, but that's a topic for SYM not this forum.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:57 pm

In that case, galraen, the Elder Scrolls game creators needn't bother with keeping the continuity going - which they seem to have done previously - any longer. I for one, hope they DO maintain continuity, and WITHOUT stretching or wriggling around too much!

And I'm sure they have the brains to know we'd see through 'em if they tried.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:09 pm

What continuity Fljotsdale? As I pointed out, Tamriel being forever safe from Oblivion was one person's opinion. An opinion which the game invalidates darn quickly if you think about it. Ever done Daedric Shrine quests after Martin is dead? At least one of them that you can do afterwards entails opening a gate to Oblivion. The one were you end up winning Gold Brand for sure, been there done that after Matrin popped his clogs. I seem to recall also rescuing the lost souls from Oblivion in another Daedric Quest post Apocalypse.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:35 am

I was thinking of continuity from game to game, which seems to hang together pretty well, so far as they touch. Never plyed Arena, but I played Daggerfall and Battlespire and Morrowind before Oblivion; and while the diferent games don't 'touch' each other very much, the history seems pretty well integrated. Don't you think so?
Therefore, if the next game breaks with the history by having Martin come back or Tamriel no longer safe from Oblivion, I'd want a pretty good explanation! :laugh:

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:33 pm

Fljotsdale wrote:Therefore, if the next game breaks with the history by having Martin come back or Tamriel no longer safe from Oblivion, I'd want a pretty good explanation! :laugh:

The first part I'd completely agree with you about, bringing Martin back would be terrible in my opinion, unfortunately some developers have no sense of shame, BioWare for example. They bring back dead characters with an insane regularity in the Baldur's Gate series, hopefully Beth will have more integrity than that.

As for for Tamriel no longer being safe from Oblivion, I ask yet again, who says it is? Just Martin, or Ocata IIRC, and as I've pointed out the falseness of his tstimony is demonstrable in Oblivion, let alone any sequel. The rational conclusion is that the forced and explosive expulsion of Mehunes Dagon completely disrupted all the gates created using his power, but had no effect whatsoever on the other Daedra realms of Oblivion. It wouldn't be much of an assumption to consider that once MD has recovered from the trauma that he could fins a way to once again creat gateways, he is a god after all! Even if he can be discounted, what's to stop one of the other 'bad' Daedra from filing the vacuum, or even one of the good ones for that matter? Azura making a bid to drive out the false gods and bring peace and prosperity to Tamriel might appeal to a lot of people. The Septims were a pretty inept bunch anyway, a prime example of Primogeniture being a terrible way to pick leaders.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:09 am

galraen wrote: [The first part I'd completely agree with you about, bringing Martin back would be terrible in my opinion, unfortunately some developers have no sense of shame, BioWare for example. They bring back dead characters with an insane regularity in the Baldur's Gate series, hopefully Beth will have more integrity than that.

I'm glad we agree on that, anyway.

galraen wrote:As for for Tamriel no longer being safe from Oblivion, I ask yet again, who says it is? Just Martin, or Ocata IIRC, and as I've pointed out the falseness of his tstimony is demonstrable in Oblivion, let alone any sequel. The rational conclusion is that the forced and explosive expulsion of Mehunes Dagon completely disrupted all the gates created using his power, but had no effect whatsoever on the other Daedra realms of Oblivion. It wouldn't be much of an assumption to consider that once MD has recovered from the trauma that he could fins a way to once again creat gateways, he is a god after all!

Whilst I agree that you make good points, aren't you leaving Akatosh out of the equation? He is, after all, personally and directly standing Guardian over Tamriel now - or possibly a Martin/Akatosh union - to protect against Oblivion totally, not just Mehrunes Dagon's bit of it. And if we can believe Mankar Cameron, Tamriel formerly belonged to Mehrunes Dagon, so he was the one with primary reason to '...not invade, but take back...'

galraen wrote:Even if he can be discounted, what's to stop one of the other 'bad' Daedra from filing the vacuum, or even one of the good ones for that matter? Azura making a bid to drive out the false gods and bring peace and prosperity to Tamriel might appeal to a lot of people.

That might work, if Bethesda can think of a good reason for any of 'em doing it.

galraen wrote:The Septims were a pretty inept bunch anyway, a prime example of Primogeniture being a terrible way to pick leaders.

They weren't too wonderful, were they? But they survived, up until Martin, which has to say something for their staying-power, at least. And Martin WAS a hero! Imo, anyway.

Sir Twist · Post by **Sir Twist** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:59 pm

Well, getting back to the premise of the thread, I think that Martin took all the credit because he was the emperor's son, and then emperor.

GrimHarvest · Post by **GrimHarvest** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:08 pm

With regards to the Oblivion threat debate, when Martatosh defeats Mehrunes and shuts down all the gates he misses one. Its on a small island just outside Bravil...

Tamriel may be saved from Mehrunes part of Oblivion but the other daedric gods still have access it seems.

Sorry for sticking my neb in there.