I think you're playing a different game. -10 AC gets you hit a lot of time. Not to mention the time before you get that AC. Then there are the things that do damage while making fun of AC, like spells. So, having something to occupy the enemy definitly pays off.
Bards are must haves because of their Bard Song (especially in HoW, but even in regular IWD) and their very high caster level.
You're reasoning for excluding casters in lieu of fighters to reduce in-game time doesn't make sense: fighters get hurt, more so than casters, since they're toe-to-toe most of the time, and without casters to heal them, you have to sleep a lot to heal up, or travel to temples. Even if you have one caster to heal, you'll spend several days just sleeping. Probably resting for 16-24hours each time.
And yes, the buffs and debuffs you mention are obvious reasons why a Cleric/Ranger is a lot more preferable to a straight fighter. Other spells are "save or suck" spells, like Hold Person, or "save or die", like Disintegrate. The Static Charge trick of kmonster also works wonders.
Yet another new player - advices are needed
Dual-class Fighter/Cleric is better than a pure Fighter in every single way. You can take enough Fighter levels to get 5 points in a blunt weapon, then dual-class. Clerics have Draw Upon Holy Might, which sets your physical stats to 25 at a high enough level, giving huge AC and damage boosts. Not to mention the various self-only Cleric buffs that give more AC and immunities.Gray wrote:O'rly?
- Dual classes are not worth is, with a SINGLE exception. Fighter dualled to any class at lvl2 still sucks, because of gaining THAC0 as second class, and missing his targets a lot... no matter of extra half an attack. Any class dualled to fighter sucks because other classes start with 18str at best, which is -4 to damage! An exception stated above is thief dualled into fighter at lvl8, in case it is ranged attacker: you don't need thief skills any higher, nor you need str for using bows/xbows.
Like others have said, the point to playing in HoF mode from scratch is for the challenge. If you're intimately familiar with the mechanics of these games, they become too easy otherwise. For me that means, for the BG series, soloing with a pure class Thief on the highest difficulty setting, for IWD, HoF mode with a level 1 party. I don't know if any class can solo HoF from level 1. Probably not.
Obviously, because of the increased XP, you level faster in HoF, and once you've acquired enough gear and reached the higher levels, the game starts to become easy again. It's very tough in the beginning though.
Did you test a pure druid ? Fighter/druid is possible even in a "kill all enemies during the game" way, as is cleric/mage. Even fighter/thief isn't too hard if you don't mind sneaking past enemies a lot to avoid combat.
Fighter/cleric/mage and fighter/mage/thief are probably the easiest combos, ranger should be easier than fighter/thief.
With HoW bards get more songs and can even heal the party by singing. Without HoW they are not that powerful, but they're still the optimal diplomats, can cast at the highest casting level (longer lasting haste, ...), use the bardic horn of Vallhalla, wear the rogue's cowl and AC2 elfin chain and increase the other party members' damage output considerably with their song.
Druids level extremely fast, so the dualclassing period for a fighter9/druid takes only 125,000 XP (half as long as for a thief8/fighter) , getting a fighter9/druid12 takes only 550,000 XP.
If you have two healers in your party you also have twice as many healing spells, so since replacing one of the many pure fighters with a priest combo doesn't allow the enemies to hit your party twice as often you'll actually save in-game time.
Additional arcane buff spells can also decrease the in-game time a lot, an additional casting of haste at a fighter able to wear the trusted helm of the defender will add far more attack power than the difference from a fighter/mage to a pure fighter and casters can cast those spells a lot (and you've the flexibility to cast them only when they're needed), as well as emotion:hope, emotion:courage and others. Spells also offer more options than buffing.
Fighter/cleric/mage and fighter/mage/thief are probably the easiest combos, ranger should be easier than fighter/thief.
With HoW bards get more songs and can even heal the party by singing. Without HoW they are not that powerful, but they're still the optimal diplomats, can cast at the highest casting level (longer lasting haste, ...), use the bardic horn of Vallhalla, wear the rogue's cowl and AC2 elfin chain and increase the other party members' damage output considerably with their song.
Druids level extremely fast, so the dualclassing period for a fighter9/druid takes only 125,000 XP (half as long as for a thief8/fighter) , getting a fighter9/druid12 takes only 550,000 XP.
If you have two healers in your party you also have twice as many healing spells, so since replacing one of the many pure fighters with a priest combo doesn't allow the enemies to hit your party twice as often you'll actually save in-game time.
Additional arcane buff spells can also decrease the in-game time a lot, an additional casting of haste at a fighter able to wear the trusted helm of the defender will add far more attack power than the difference from a fighter/mage to a pure fighter and casters can cast those spells a lot (and you've the flexibility to cast them only when they're needed), as well as emotion:hope, emotion:courage and others. Spells also offer more options than buffing.
In IWD 1.06 you don't really get hit with -10 AC... as I've said - Belhifet down without losing 20hp. Gaining it is no prob either, at least in chap2: 18dex is 6 AC basic, common vendor plate armor is -7, Ring of Protection +2 you steal at the very begin, Black Wolf Talisman -1, Boots of the Fox -1, The Red Knight's Sheild is -4 and Dead Man's Face -1 - which totals to -10 AC without ANY spell after defeating Yxonomei.GawainBS wrote:I think you're playing a different game. -10 AC gets you hit a lot of time. Not to mention the time before you get that AC.
Honestly, I don't remember any dangerous casters but Presio and Malavon. 2 mobs are not good enough reason to waste party spot for a wealking in robes, IMHOGawainBS wrote:Then there are the things that do damage while making fun of AC, like spells.
As far as I can see, it just grants AC and damage reduction, no dps... well maybe it is important on HoF mode, but in classic IWD?...GawainBS wrote:Bards are must haves because of their Bard Song (especially in HoW, but even in regular IWD) and their very high caster level.
Not really. Since sleeping while having at least one character at least 1hp below max takes extra 8 hours, I never sleep to memorize spells without being fully healed. And, I tell you, 1 cleric-ranger has enough curative powers to support well-equipped fighters for about 6-8 fights (even more in case there is just a single mob against my party each time - usually it dies to ranged attacks before reaching my melee guys). Later on I just buy healing potions and use them when needed - there is no other use for money anyway. Also, 18 dex fighters just don't get hurt a lot while wearing plate armoursGawainBS wrote:You're reasoning for excluding casters in lieu of fighters to reduce in-game time doesn't make sense: fighters get hurt, more so than casters, since they're toe-to-toe most of the time, and without casters to heal them, you have to sleep a lot to heal up, or travel to temples. Even if you have one caster to heal, you'll spend several days just sleeping. Probably resting for 16-24hours each time.
This basically means lvl9... that's Severed hand. And then you have to gain lvl10 cleric with fighter skills disabled - i.e. fully clear chap4 and chap5 (and start chap6) with 1-1.5 attack/round front row chars. On top of that, there are no twohanded blunt weapons; and there is just one source of onehanded blunt powerweapons - Fleezum's treasury, which grants you just a single weapon. The rest cleric weapons like Misery's Herald or The Giving Star suck major ass compared to Static Two Handed Sword +4, Doom Halberd +3 and Foe's Fate. Are you really sure about "every single way" still?timortis wrote:Dual-class Fighter/Cleric is better than a pure Fighter in every single way. You can take enough Fighter levels to get 5 points in a blunt weapon, then dual-class.
1) HoW... maybe I'll try a bard, then. As for classic, no waykmonster wrote:With HoW bards get more songs and can even heal the party by singing. Without HoW they are not that powerful, but they're still the optimal diplomats, can cast at the highest casting level (longer lasting haste, ...), use the bardic horn of Vallhalla, wear the rogue's cowl and AC2 elfin chain and increase the other party members' damage output considerably with their song.
2) Diplomacy = useless destiny of weaklings? :mischief:
3) You don't really need long lasting haste... See, you cast haste just before some dangerous combat (because you can't really fight while fatigued, so you have to sleep after - thus no reason to cast haste just for the sake of it). No matter which combat is that, you finish it way before haste goes off. So far I remember just a single occasion when I had haste wearing off too early: when I was reloading for a hour rl to get Ring of Dwarven Bone AND Bone Marrow Belt at the same time, which included a lot of running. Though, common players don't play like THAT, I assume
4) Rogue's cowl? Some HoW item?
5) Powerplayers have no chance of getting elven chain... You get it either from Solonor lvl3 - but you miss Ring of Strength then (a BIG no-no), or from Kaylessa - but you can take Kaylessa's Gloves instead. Elven chain is just 1 AC better than Sudded Leather +4: Shadowed, while Kaylessa's Gloves grant 2 AC to everyone with 18dex, so what's the point?
The rogue's cowl can be bought from Orrick during chapter 2 and 3. (Orrick's inventory changes at the start of chapter 2 and 4.)
Compare the elvin chains to the alternative +8 AC +1 dex +20 cold resistance vs +1 AC +1 dex and/or +8 AC +20 cold resistance vs +1 str -1 dex. Definitely worth taking one for a bard. And even for multiclass mages there's no armor with AC that low in the game which allows spellcasting. Studded leather doesn't allow spellcasting (you don't want to swap armor each time you cast a spells, do you ?) and Kaylessa's Gloves only grant +2 AC to a character with 18 dex. (19 dex grants the same AC as 18.)
The problem is that IWD is a rpg with strategy elements and no hardcore strategy game, so you can easily beat it without ever knowing most of the available options.
I recommend trying to beat the game with the following party of 4 pure class characters:
Thief, cleric, druid, conjurer
Unlike in your previous game you won't be able to overrun everything without much thinking, you'll have to get some knowledge about the power of cleric spells, the power of druidic spells, the power of mage spells and the power of sneakiness (or at least one of those 4) to get through the game.
It won't be as easy as before, but you'll be able to cast level 7 spells and to backstab*5 during the game, options you never had during your previous game.
Compare the elvin chains to the alternative +8 AC +1 dex +20 cold resistance vs +1 AC +1 dex and/or +8 AC +20 cold resistance vs +1 str -1 dex. Definitely worth taking one for a bard. And even for multiclass mages there's no armor with AC that low in the game which allows spellcasting. Studded leather doesn't allow spellcasting (you don't want to swap armor each time you cast a spells, do you ?) and Kaylessa's Gloves only grant +2 AC to a character with 18 dex. (19 dex grants the same AC as 18.)
The problem is that IWD is a rpg with strategy elements and no hardcore strategy game, so you can easily beat it without ever knowing most of the available options.
I recommend trying to beat the game with the following party of 4 pure class characters:
Thief, cleric, druid, conjurer
Unlike in your previous game you won't be able to overrun everything without much thinking, you'll have to get some knowledge about the power of cleric spells, the power of druidic spells, the power of mage spells and the power of sneakiness (or at least one of those 4) to get through the game.
It won't be as easy as before, but you'll be able to cast level 7 spells and to backstab*5 during the game, options you never had during your previous game.
kmonster wrote: The rogue's cowl can be bought from Orrick during chapter 2 and 3. (Orrick's inventory changes at the start of chapter 2 and 4.)
Funny... I've bought Girdle of Gond from him, and stole Ring of Free Action - never noticed any other useful things on him (and yes I mean USEFUL - not some wands which do some crap 40 dam/round, and get wasted after 5 uses). But I've got your point... gonna look more closely next time To me, NO defencive stuff can be compared to an item which improves dps (i.e. +1str ring)kmonster wrote: Compare the elvin chains to the alternative +8 AC +1 dex +20 cold resistance vs +1 AC +1 dex and/or +8 AC +20 cold resistance vs +1 str -1 dex. Definitely worth taking one for a bard.
Gloves, well... my bad, I was going to say "char with 18 dex AND Ring of Strength - i.e. 17 total dex". I just consider Kaylessa's loot to be tank eq rather than rear line chars eq... I mean, really, your bard is a melee char? I hope not And, ranged attackers don't really get hit often...Studded leather was a thief eq as replacement for elven chain... speaking of mages - TBH, I don't see any useful spells which can be cast before you reach Severed Hand. Identify and Haste - nothing more. Really, it's no problem for me to remove my warmmage's plate armour once to cast first haste, then to cast second haste, and then to identify stuff after he has slept fully with mage dagger +1 in handskmonster wrote: And even for multiclass mages there's no armor with AC that low in the game which allows spellcasting. Studded leather doesn't allow spellcasting (you don't want to swap armor each time you cast a spells, do you ?) and Kaylessa's Gloves only grant +2 AC to a character with 18 dex. (19 dex grants the same AC as 18.)
Once per game day, that is!Yeah, too bad... I would like to see some overpowered bosses hidden here and there (outside of main plot line, so casual players can just ignore them), to be used as practice targets by powerplayers - rather than castrating my party on purposekmonster wrote: The problem is that IWD is a rpg with strategy elements and no hardcore strategy game, so you can easily beat it without ever knowing most of the available options.
As I've said already - I don't seek for challenge, I seek for power and achievement You do realise that +1 STR might do nothing to increase your damage?
I also find that strange that enemies only tend to attack your "tank". It didn't work that well for me, most of the time. Not to mention those times you had to deal with pesky stuff like Charm & Confusion.
Having played the game again, I believe you when you said you managed it with a near-exclusive fighter party, but it was a lot harder than with a mixed party. Just whacking things tended to end badly, since you're basicly relying the lucky roll of a d20.
As far useful lvl 2 mage spells: Blur, Mirror Image, Horror, to name a few.
I also find that strange that enemies only tend to attack your "tank". It didn't work that well for me, most of the time. Not to mention those times you had to deal with pesky stuff like Charm & Confusion.
Having played the game again, I believe you when you said you managed it with a near-exclusive fighter party, but it was a lot harder than with a mixed party. Just whacking things tended to end badly, since you're basicly relying the lucky roll of a d20.
As far useful lvl 2 mage spells: Blur, Mirror Image, Horror, to name a few.
Ughm... no, I don't. Look at Str table in the manualGawainBS wrote:You do realise that +1 STR might do nothing to increase your damage?
This is true ONLY in case your char have got 16 or 18/1-18/50 str. My group have started with either 15 (ranged) or 18/00 (melee) str for everyone...Mobs get "aggroed" by the the first char they see. With my tank running like 10 stels ahead the party, that's no biggieGawainBS wrote: I also find that strange that enemies only tend to attack your "tank". It didn't work that well for me, most of the time. Not to mention those times you had to deal with pesky stuff like Charm & Confusion.
Then, so far I've never noticed anyone able to charm. Maybe it has something to do with my ranged guys, shooting 4-5 arrows per round, targeting casters As for confusion... you are right - as I've said, I had to tank umber hulks with elem, killing them with ranged weapons. But that's just 2 locations in the entire game...?? I don't have any problems with rolls... my party, while buffed with courage and prayer, has at least 4 THAC0 (ranger/cleric) - this basically means "always hit everyone with AC 2 and more, except for unlucky critical miss". Fighters have got THAC0 0-1... what lucky roll you're talking about?GawainBS wrote: Having played the game again, I believe you when you said you managed it with a near-exclusive fighter party, but it was a lot harder than with a mixed party. Just whacking things tended to end badly, since you're basicly relying the lucky roll of a d20.
Lucky rolls are for casters, because mobs tend to resist every second spell...I've found 2 blur decks... never used a single charge. Mirror Image - yes, seems to be the only useful spell (although I manage to use some 0 to 3 out of 12 memorized Mirrors usually). Horror is NecromancyGawainBS wrote: As far useful lvl 2 mage spells: Blur, Mirror Image, Horror, to name a few.
So far I'm not really sure what is more important - extra spell slot of each level (in case of gnome fighter-illusionist), or access to Horror (available to any other race fighter-mage)... In terms of finishing the game in minimal time, extra haste/slow, extra courage and extra elem is more important than a single useful necromancy spell.-
LastDanceSaloon
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Quite some points flying about here.
Gray is obsessed with fighters and gwain and monster are obsessed with mages and bards/druids.
It's funny for me because every time I've played the game I end up using the same team because nothing else seems to work, and my ideal teams are always Cleric heavy.
Two tanks - One major, one back up with additional ranged skills
One Rogue - just to make everything a bit quicker (traps locks etc) with ranged skills.
One dedicated Archer
Two Clerics
For the first few levels the tanks do everything.
Then for the mid levels the Cleric's summons become the new tanks and the ranged attack takes centre stage with the main tank acting as a defender.
Then for the last third it's all Clerics, the tanks just hacking at statues before the spells run out.
The weakest player is the Rogue, and they can still defend for quite some time before they have to play run around.
A team full of tanks would just be a mind control nightmare, I have no idea how you combat your entire team going berserk or confused.
Likewise I have no idea how anyone can have the patience with Mages/Bards and Druids for the first two thirds of the game when they are essentially baggage waiting for a good spell. (Oh, and I just love the Druid spells which look amazing, and can be, which say "only used outside, can't use inside", ROFL, great character for dungeon crawling!)
When I play this game, I'm imagining myself as part of a D&D team like on the old cartoon on telly. I want every team member to be doing about as much as each other to get the end result. Every time I play with my ideal team it just feels like everyone is doing their bit and has their use.
As for Paladins - They get a big sword near the end, whoop whoop. We are given 6 players, why bother with a half Fighter half Cleric when you can have a full version of each, TWICE! Paladins are for games when you have to play as one character and want to fight and spell with equal force from the offset, totally pointless in IWD. Sorry if that upsets people, but it's kinda hard facts...
Gray is obsessed with fighters and gwain and monster are obsessed with mages and bards/druids.
It's funny for me because every time I've played the game I end up using the same team because nothing else seems to work, and my ideal teams are always Cleric heavy.
Two tanks - One major, one back up with additional ranged skills
One Rogue - just to make everything a bit quicker (traps locks etc) with ranged skills.
One dedicated Archer
Two Clerics
For the first few levels the tanks do everything.
Then for the mid levels the Cleric's summons become the new tanks and the ranged attack takes centre stage with the main tank acting as a defender.
Then for the last third it's all Clerics, the tanks just hacking at statues before the spells run out.
The weakest player is the Rogue, and they can still defend for quite some time before they have to play run around.
A team full of tanks would just be a mind control nightmare, I have no idea how you combat your entire team going berserk or confused.
Likewise I have no idea how anyone can have the patience with Mages/Bards and Druids for the first two thirds of the game when they are essentially baggage waiting for a good spell. (Oh, and I just love the Druid spells which look amazing, and can be, which say "only used outside, can't use inside", ROFL, great character for dungeon crawling!)
When I play this game, I'm imagining myself as part of a D&D team like on the old cartoon on telly. I want every team member to be doing about as much as each other to get the end result. Every time I play with my ideal team it just feels like everyone is doing their bit and has their use.
As for Paladins - They get a big sword near the end, whoop whoop. We are given 6 players, why bother with a half Fighter half Cleric when you can have a full version of each, TWICE! Paladins are for games when you have to play as one character and want to fight and spell with equal force from the offset, totally pointless in IWD. Sorry if that upsets people, but it's kinda hard facts...
This could be actually decent idea... My party is much like this: 4 melee chars, 2 dedicated archers (one of them warmage, another thief-fighter). Mage actually kills with bow rather than with magic, but his buffs are MUST HAVELastDanceSaloon wrote: Two tanks - One major, one back up with additional ranged skills
One Rogue - just to make everything a bit quicker (traps locks etc) with ranged skills.
One dedicated Archer
Two Clerics
Thief converted to fighter also does great ranged damage, as I've calculated above. But, second cleric is an interesting idea... less dps because of less specialization points, with increased curative powers instead. This could be even better from "completing the game in the minimal time" PoW... The only drawback is: there is no decent weapon for second cleric! Morningstar of Action +4 is awesome, as it was noted above; but the next best blunt weapon is Fast Flail +2...Hrmpf?LastDanceSaloon wrote: Then for the mid levels the Cleric's summons become the new tanks and the ranged attack takes centre stage with the main tank acting as a defender.
Then for the last third it's all Clerics, the tanks just hacking at statues before the spells run out.
Summons? As tanks? *confused*Once again... who does this mind control thing you both are afraid of? :speech: Except for umber hulk confusion?LastDanceSaloon wrote: A team full of tanks would just be a mind control nightmare, I have no idea how you combat your entire team going berserk or confused.
As for the rest, I agree
Paladins sawk, so do rangers and druids. And thief becomes way less useless after dualing to fighter...-
LastDanceSaloon
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The mind control thing comes from everywhere, from Mummies to Blue Myrmiods (the mushroom thingys). Honestly, it's the only part of the game I found really irritating, trying to second guess which curatives to memorize for all the different spell hastles on my tanks. Remove fear removes panic, but not berserk etc etc. On almost every level I was dealing with these issues, are you using some kind of avoidance patch????
Using summons as tanks - ie: holding up the bad guys long enough to pelt them with arrows and spells. Not as in actual damage making characters, sorry for the confusion, it was lazily written. But later on and even the summoned skeletons start getting swords +1 and flame arrows and actually become valuable assets, in more ways than one (never forget to check all their droppings as they get crunched).
Two clerics does indeed speed up gameplay, as you can effectively fight twice as many battles without needing a sleep, then, later in the game your just sleeping to restore the cleric spells. Dominating their memorized spells with heal and you can go 3 or 4 times longer. I remember being forced to sleep mainly while spending too long in the shops sorting out all my booty and the party starts nagging from fatigue.
A mildy frustrating element was that there did seem to be plenty of great maces and flails towards the end, which were ideal for Clerics, but generally useless as clerics are painfully slow fighters. Maybe I got lots of lucky drops? But is was irritating having my Clerics weald better equipment than my back-up fighter - and never effectively using it.
There seems to be and endless raft of +2 with some form of added carnage maces and flails, but very few similar hammers, axes etc. I have to agree that the Long Sword of Action is the best weapon in the game, I even preferred it to the +5 you get given at the end.
My favourite weapons of all are the repeating crossbow and Kaylessa's bow, both of which speed up the fire rate of archers (apologies if I'm thinking of IWD2, I often confuse the two greatly). It's like carrying around two machine guns. It's just a shame that towards the end you kind of have to give them up in favour of +4 examples in order to have any effect on the bigger bad guys.
Using summons as tanks - ie: holding up the bad guys long enough to pelt them with arrows and spells. Not as in actual damage making characters, sorry for the confusion, it was lazily written. But later on and even the summoned skeletons start getting swords +1 and flame arrows and actually become valuable assets, in more ways than one (never forget to check all their droppings as they get crunched).
Two clerics does indeed speed up gameplay, as you can effectively fight twice as many battles without needing a sleep, then, later in the game your just sleeping to restore the cleric spells. Dominating their memorized spells with heal and you can go 3 or 4 times longer. I remember being forced to sleep mainly while spending too long in the shops sorting out all my booty and the party starts nagging from fatigue.
A mildy frustrating element was that there did seem to be plenty of great maces and flails towards the end, which were ideal for Clerics, but generally useless as clerics are painfully slow fighters. Maybe I got lots of lucky drops? But is was irritating having my Clerics weald better equipment than my back-up fighter - and never effectively using it.
There seems to be and endless raft of +2 with some form of added carnage maces and flails, but very few similar hammers, axes etc. I have to agree that the Long Sword of Action is the best weapon in the game, I even preferred it to the +5 you get given at the end.
My favourite weapons of all are the repeating crossbow and Kaylessa's bow, both of which speed up the fire rate of archers (apologies if I'm thinking of IWD2, I often confuse the two greatly). It's like carrying around two machine guns. It's just a shame that towards the end you kind of have to give them up in favour of +4 examples in order to have any effect on the bigger bad guys.
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LastDanceSaloon
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Agreed, but I definitely noticed them become less effective towards the end, was it that they were just less likely to hit the target? So you were getting more shots but with less chance of hitting? Or was it that they were hitting but for less than half the damage of the higher plused bows? Or a combo of the two?
Myconids? They like... die in 3-4 arrowsLastDanceSaloon wrote:The mind control thing comes from everywhere, from Mummies to Blue Myrmiods (the mushroom thingys). Honestly, it's the only part of the game I found really irritating, trying to second guess which curatives to memorize for all the different spell hastles on my tanks. Remove fear removes panic, but not berserk etc etc. On almost every level I was dealing with these issues, are you using some kind of avoidance patch????
Well, clerics in one of the Severed Hand towerlets (Solonor?) might offer some challenge... OTOH, every last control effect is removed with Dispel Magic Just memorize a few of them. Too bad it's area effect... so you have to move unaffected guys a bit away.Well, this makes sense in case your group is ranged-attack-oriented (corresponding skills raised). But, from my experiences, such a group has 2 kinds of troubles:LastDanceSaloon wrote: But later on and even the summoned skeletons start getting swords +1 and flame arrows and actually become valuable assets, in more ways than one (never forget to check all their droppings as they get crunched).
1) It runs out of decent missiles rather fast. The biggest idiocy of IWD, IMHO, is that missile supply could be far below demand for it. Having 300k gold and shooting common arrows is UTTER NONSENSE.
2) This group is powerless against final bosses, no matter of missiles - as there are no +3 missiles at all.
Otherwise, in case your group is melee-trained, what's the point to keep monsters away from party?
LastDanceSaloon wrote: later in the game your just sleeping to restore the cleric spells.
Really? Then you've prolly had no mage in party My group, being permabuffed, takes really little damage, and mostly sleeps to let my warmage memorize more Courages, Hastes and alike buffs.I'd say - no luck with other dropsLastDanceSaloon wrote: A mildy frustrating element was that there did seem to be plenty of great maces and flails towards the end, which were ideal for Clerics, but generally useless as clerics are painfully slow fighters. Maybe I got lots of lucky drops? But is was irritating having my Clerics weald better equipment than my back-up fighter - and never effectively using it.
My luck was always absolute (because of modified by reloads ), so I've been getting really awesome fighter weapons, such as Static Two Handed Sword +4, Doom Halberd +3 etc. Btw, I think ranger-cleric is almost as powerful healer as pure cleric is, AND very effective melee char as well. I guess ultimate party would be 2 fighters, 2 ranger-clerics, warmage and thief8->fighter.Well, actually Morningstar of Action +4 is, as it was noted above...LastDanceSaloon wrote: There seems to be and endless raft of +2 with some form of added carnage maces and flails, but very few similar hammers, axes etc. I have to agree that the Long Sword of Action is the best weapon in the game, I even preferred it to the +5 you get given at the end.
That's why you can put some points in sword/axe for your ranged attackers, and let them use Cairn Blade and Lonesome Road against Belhifet (fighters should get some better weapons at this moment).LastDanceSaloon wrote: It's just a shame that towards the end you kind of have to give them up in favour of +4 examples in order to have any effect on the bigger bad guys.
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LastDanceSaloon
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hmmm
Mycaninds or 'them blue things wot look like mushrooms' do die quite quickly, the only have either 40 or 60 HP. However, they tend to come in batches of 4/5 and often fire off their mind altering spells before they attack. Although this does not kill members of the party, it causes them to run aimlessly round the screen activating the more powerful Ettins and even more Mycs.
It is not a 'no problem' situation.
Anyway, I was under the impression that you were promoting the need only for a melee only party, it seems that this melee only party can only function with the aid of a Mage, either in part or in whole, so it's not a melee only party.
You also complain of lack of decent arrows, suggesting that you use ranged attack quite vigorously. At the end of both IWD and IWD2 my archer, crossbowman and slinger all had a huge excess of quality missiles. This is because I only had one of each. As I keep saying, the game is designed for a team consisting of variety. There is not enough spells to have more than one or two mages just as there isn't enough of any particular weapon to have more than one or two examples of them.
When I attack with ranged weapons I am attacking with one archer, one Crossbowman, one slinger, one darter and one throwing axe. The darts are the quickest to be exhausted and are quite frustrating to play so those I often leave out. I always choose normal arrows and only use powerful arrows if I really have to or am in some kind of hurry.
By big bad guys I mean anything that needs killing quickly, such as Greater Mummies or packs of monsters surrounding one player. Ol' Belly at the end can be defeated in 20 seconds with two fighters on speed. It is potions of speed which I found to be in short supply, but I did not have a Mage which could cast Haste.
I did not use modified re-loads. Why go to all that hassle? If you're the kind of player who just reloads till you get what you want, why not just cheat ALL the items into the game - it's quicker and you can plan your campaign and stats easier from the beginning.
Morning Star of Action +4 would be better than the Long Sword of Action +4 if you can guarantee having a fighter fully specialised with it. Most fighters will be specialised in Long Swords, Short Swords, Two Handed Swords, Axes and Hammers before Maces gets any points. Clerics and Paladins will be the ones trained in maces and they can't get the full benefit of the weapon.
Unless of course you know the weapon exists before you play and plan to use it from the start and specialise a fighter in maces - which is... unusual.
My archer had points in Halberds and spears, but never needed to use them. Two fighters is more than enough for the challenges the game brings forward and a lot of the time I was only effectively having one fighter in melee.
It must certainly be fun to have a whole posse of melees who just run in and excite the eyes and the graphics and generally get the heart pumping, but I yet to see it work efficiently and normally when I tried it on my first few novice runs, it tended to end in disaster- Hence you stop doing it and learn to use the different facets of all the different characters available to you.
Mycaninds or 'them blue things wot look like mushrooms' do die quite quickly, the only have either 40 or 60 HP. However, they tend to come in batches of 4/5 and often fire off their mind altering spells before they attack. Although this does not kill members of the party, it causes them to run aimlessly round the screen activating the more powerful Ettins and even more Mycs.
It is not a 'no problem' situation.
Anyway, I was under the impression that you were promoting the need only for a melee only party, it seems that this melee only party can only function with the aid of a Mage, either in part or in whole, so it's not a melee only party.
You also complain of lack of decent arrows, suggesting that you use ranged attack quite vigorously. At the end of both IWD and IWD2 my archer, crossbowman and slinger all had a huge excess of quality missiles. This is because I only had one of each. As I keep saying, the game is designed for a team consisting of variety. There is not enough spells to have more than one or two mages just as there isn't enough of any particular weapon to have more than one or two examples of them.
When I attack with ranged weapons I am attacking with one archer, one Crossbowman, one slinger, one darter and one throwing axe. The darts are the quickest to be exhausted and are quite frustrating to play so those I often leave out. I always choose normal arrows and only use powerful arrows if I really have to or am in some kind of hurry.
By big bad guys I mean anything that needs killing quickly, such as Greater Mummies or packs of monsters surrounding one player. Ol' Belly at the end can be defeated in 20 seconds with two fighters on speed. It is potions of speed which I found to be in short supply, but I did not have a Mage which could cast Haste.
I did not use modified re-loads. Why go to all that hassle? If you're the kind of player who just reloads till you get what you want, why not just cheat ALL the items into the game - it's quicker and you can plan your campaign and stats easier from the beginning.
Morning Star of Action +4 would be better than the Long Sword of Action +4 if you can guarantee having a fighter fully specialised with it. Most fighters will be specialised in Long Swords, Short Swords, Two Handed Swords, Axes and Hammers before Maces gets any points. Clerics and Paladins will be the ones trained in maces and they can't get the full benefit of the weapon.
Unless of course you know the weapon exists before you play and plan to use it from the start and specialise a fighter in maces - which is... unusual.
My archer had points in Halberds and spears, but never needed to use them. Two fighters is more than enough for the challenges the game brings forward and a lot of the time I was only effectively having one fighter in melee.
It must certainly be fun to have a whole posse of melees who just run in and excite the eyes and the graphics and generally get the heart pumping, but I yet to see it work efficiently and normally when I tried it on my first few novice runs, it tended to end in disaster- Hence you stop doing it and learn to use the different facets of all the different characters available to you.
ExactlyLastDanceSaloon wrote: Anyway, I was under the impression that you were promoting the need only for a melee only party, it seems that this melee only party can only function with the aid of a Mage, either in part or in whole, so it's not a melee only party.
This is the way I complete most of RPGs: a party of melee characters, supported by 2 other classes (usually some combo of mage/cleric/bard/lockpicker classes). It is not pure "brute force", yes - but 90% of the damage is done with sharp (or rather blunt) steel rather than puny magic. Reasoning is simple: in the MOST of RPGs there is great freedom in choosing and combining weapons and other damage-improving equipment, which there is next to no items improving spelldamage or spell casting speed... Basically, spells are given "as is", which weapon dps you can polish and optimize up to insane heights Agreed... almost. Slings do such a crap dps, so I'd rather use a (x)bow with extra attack(s) and plain arrows/bolts, rather than sling and bullets +2. So, this is what I have: a bowman and crossbowman. The latter has some serions problems with ammunition (mostly because Nym is a moron who sells rather limited number of great arrows, and NO BOLTS AT ALLLastDanceSaloon wrote: When I attack with ranged weapons I am attacking with one archer, one Crossbowman, one slinger, one darter and one throwing axe. The darts are the quickest to be exhausted and are quite frustrating to play so those I often leave out. I always choose normal arrows and only use powerful arrows if I really have to or am in some kind of hurry.
).That's why. I don't do anything that is completely impossible without cheating... I just assume that my party has LUCK 18/00LastDanceSaloon wrote: I did not use modified re-loads. Why go to all that hassle? If you're the kind of player who just reloads till you get what you want, why not just cheat ALL the items into the game - it's quicker and you can plan your campaign and stats easier from the beginning.
WOOT?LastDanceSaloon wrote: Morning Star of Action +4 would be better than the Long Sword of Action +4 if you can guarantee having a fighter fully specialised with it. Most fighters will be specialised in Long Swords, Short Swords, Two Handed Swords, Axes
)) Is is MY party, I can guarantee anything concerning it! hehe. Once I've completed the game once - I know there is a power mace, so there is no problem for me to raise corresponding skill...Well, I'm always open to learning (and I've learned A LOT from this topic, btw)LastDanceSaloon wrote: Hence you stop doing it and learn to use the different facets of all the different characters available to you.
Just... so far I don't see why should I replace a party of 2-3 pure melee fighters, 1-2 cleric melee combos and 2 ranged attacking mage/rogue combos with anything else!