Baseball rules, no - not Rulez, but rules.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:00 am

So - I recently got a channel - well, got and got, I pay for it - which shows a lot of baseball so I started looking at this.

And even though I've got some decent grasp of the rules of the game, there are still things which strike me as strange, so where better to ask this then a baseball forum. But instead I'll ask it here

I'll start with the question which annoys me most, and then perhaps post others at some other time. So here goes....

I've seen when the outfield catches a ball the batter is out. Logical enough.
However at times, you see people on the base running either to home, or to another base even if the ball is caught. But many times you don't see this running taking place. And that puzzles me, because if it is legal to run while the ball is caught, you can advance easily - but it only seem to happen occasionally; and mostly from third to home.
What are the rules for running on bases when the batter's hit is caught?

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:17 am

Pretty simple actually Xandax, base runners are allowed to run when the ball is caught only when they have their foot on the base when the ball is caught. When they tag their base as it is called they can run. The reason runners don't tag and run ofter from first and second base is because they can easily be thrown out.

The risk reward quotient is a lot more favorable going from third to home as the distance is greater and a deep fly out gives a good chance at scoring. Sometimes a batter will deliberately hit the ball deep just to give such an event a chance to happen. Also called a sacrifice or sac fly.

Baseball can be pretty dull unless pay attention to what is happening between the batter and pitcher. There is always a contest of wits happening there, the pitcher is the most important position. Their sole job is to keep the other team from scoring.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:05 am

Not sure I caught that (huhu

) - do you mean the runner must have contact with his base until the catch is made, and then he's allowed to attempt to run? If so then I understand why it is mainly runs for home which are risked in this situation.

And yes - baseball can be dull; I think the number of statistics in a sport is direct inverse of the action of the sport. I mean some of the stats I hear in baseball are waaaaay out there.
But nevertheless I find it somewhat interesting to watch - unless it is just a pitcher duel or something

Another question - the batting average. Is that calculated per pitch or per time in the batting area? Meaning does 3 strike count as three misses for the batting average or as 1?

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:26 am

Sorry, wasn't clear enough I guess. Runners have to tag the base after the catch is made. If they run without tagging, they can be made to be out just by that baseman tagging the base with the ball in hand. Eg Ball is hit deep and is caught near the wall, base runner watches and when the ball is caught they tag their base and run. This is legal. Second eg, ball is hit deep runner does noty watch and runs, gets to home plate. Ball is caught, thrown to third base and the runner is forced out because he did not tag. Hope that helps.

Batting average has to do with the number of base hits divided by the number of at bats. I hit three base hits out of 10 at bats so I bat .300. Walks and fielders choices and defensive errors do not count towards your batting average.

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:07 am

Additionally, sacrifice flys like the rule you asked about above also don't count as an at-bat (IIRC), so they also don't negatively impact a player's batting average.

I was a huge fan when I was a kid (mostly since my Toronto Blue Jays were one of the best teams back then) but lost a lot of interest as I grew older, and I've only regained it somewhat in the last few years. Baseball can be awfully boring to watch, especially if you don't have a personal stake in the game and don't care which team wins. As I watched more and more though, I begun to see a lot of the pitch-by-pitch strategy and a lot of the smaller nuances in the game that non-fans miss.

There are some baseball rules that are a complete mystery to me, though. I can't even begin to explain what a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balk"]Balk[/url] is, for example.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:55 am

jklinders wrote:Sorry, wasn't clear enough I guess. Runners have to tag the base after the catch is made. If they run without tagging, they can be made to be out just by that baseman tagging the base with the ball in hand. Eg Ball is hit deep and is caught near the wall, base runner watches and when the ball is caught they tag their base and run. This is legal. Second eg, ball is hit deep runner does noty watch and runs, gets to home plate. Ball is caught, thrown to third base and the runner is forced out because he did not tag. Hope that helps.<snip>

So basically - you're always allowed to run on a hit ball, even if the ball is caught and you're standing at the base, "tagging" it when the ball is caught?
And the reason they just don't do that more often is because they're easier to tag out (unless going for home, because of the longer pitch)? .... I thought you said that one was simple

jklinders wrote:<snip>
Batting average has to do with the number of base hits divided by the number of at bats. I hit three base hits out of 10 at bats so I bat .300. Walks and fielders choices and defensive errors do not count towards your batting average.

But does each "at bat" mean each swing? Say a batter hits after 2 strike outs. Does this then count as a batting average of 1 in that statistic or 1 out of 3, thus .300? So basically is it each swing, or just once per time in the batting area?
It is the math which confuses me in this instance

Nightmare wrote:<snip>
There are some baseball rules that are a complete mystery to me, though. I can't even begin to explain what a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balk"]Balk[/url] is, for example.

Yeah - some seems logical enough but others mystify me a lot.
However that Balk thingy I think I know (wohoo). As I've understood it the pitcher must not try to "fake" his movement and pretend to cast to the catcher but instead turn around and try to cast a base runner out. If he does that he's "balking" .... seems somewhat equivalent to the hitters must not follow through their swing even if the ball is outside the strikezone. So if he starts his pitching motions, he must carry them through.
I think .....

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:57 pm

If you're really interested Xandax you can come and join us here at the UK baseball fans site. We have members at all stages of learning the game (I don't think you can ever stop learning) and you'll always find someone who can help out. We aren't exclusively British by any stretch, we even have a Swedish member!

To answer your last question an official At Bat is the entire visit to the batters box so to speak, from the first pitch to the final one where he/she either is out or gets on base. There isn't a maximum number of pitches per at bat in case you're wondering, the pitcher keep throwing until there is an outcome.

seems somewhat equivalent to the hitters must not follow through their swing even if the ball is outside the strikezone

That has me puzzled, I don't know what you mean by that, but there is no restriction on the batter swinging no matter where the ball goes after leaving the pitchers hand, except that he can't leave the batter's box.

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:41 pm

Sorry again Xandax, When the ball is hit out toward the wall, in order to get someone out who is tagging at third to to score the ball has to be thrown all the way to home plate. Something around 300 feet. That is lots time to run home, Whereas if you are tagging to run to second the distance from the wall is much shorter. Bottom line is the rule exists to prevent batters from hitting the ball up all the time just to advance runners. Forcing the runner to wait at their base until the ball is caught makes it much harder to advance.

An at bat is one complete action between a a batter and a pitcher, whether it takes one pitch or 20. A swing is just that.. a swing

You are almost right about a balk. That strip of rubber the pitcher has his foot on is key to the rule. If his foot is on that rubber he has to pitch, if he is trying to throw out a runner his foot needs to be of the rubber.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:44 pm

galraen wrote:<snip>
That has me puzzled, I don't know what you mean by that, but there is no restriction on the batter swinging no matter where the ball goes after leaving the pitchers hand, except that he can't leave the batter's box.

If you swing and misses a ball outside the strike zone you "strike", but if you don't swing, it is a "ball". That's why you'll see the batters try to not swing all the way through on balls pitched outside the strike zone.
At least that's what I've deducted from the game.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:45 pm

jklinders wrote:Sorry again Xandax, When the ball is hit out toward the wall, in order to get someone out who is tagging at third to to score the ball has to be thrown all the way to home plate. Something around 300 feet. That is lots time to run home, Whereas if you are tagging to run to second the distance from the wall is much shorter. Bottom line is the rule exists to prevent batters from hitting the ball up all the time just to advance runners. Forcing the runner to wait at their base until the ball is caught makes it much harder to advance.

An at bat is one complete action between a a batter and a pitcher, whether it takes one pitch or 20. A swing is just that.. a swing
<snip>

Okay - I think I got it now

Helped me understand a bit of the things which still had me confused

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:51 am

Xandax wrote:If you swing and misses a ball outside the strike zone you "strike", but if you don't swing, it is a "ball". That's why you'll see the batters try to not swing all the way through on balls pitched outside the strike zone.
At least that's what I've deducted from the game.

Ok, I get it now, I thought you were referring to some rule you thought existed that barred hitters from swinging, hence my confusion.

Yeah, if the hitter can check his swing before the bat crosses the plate then, if the ball's out of the strike zone, it's a ball. That isn't the only reason for a check swing, but it is the most common. A hitter will also try to check his swing to avoid bad contact if they can, but that doesn't happen too often.

BlueSky · Post by **BlueSky** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:56 am

Been watching for years Xan
and still some rules and stats elude me.....

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:04 am

About the gazzillion stats rapped off by the commentators. They need to earn their pay while the batter and the pitcher are figuring out who is going to win their little duel. I usually tune them out
A couple of them on Rogers sports net up here are pretty funny.

I especially like when one of them is trying to get inside the pitcher's head and gets it completely wrong:laugh:

Tower_Master · Post by **Tower_Master** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:25 pm

Quite the addicting pastime, Xan - glad to hear you're enjoying the game!

I'm curious - what teams' games have you been receiving/following? Just don't let yourself get sucked into the terrifying realm of "Fantasy" baseball - the depths of those waters are best left untested!

@jkindlers - I always enjoy the obscure statistical citations that announcers try to play off as simple references to their own vast accumulation of knowledge, when you know that there's a math junkie sitting nearby with a laptop spoon-feeding them the relieving pitcher's WHIP, etc!

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:08 am

jklinders wrote:About the gazzillion stats rapped off by the commentators. They need to earn their pay while the batter and the pitcher are figuring out who is going to win their little duel. I usually tune them out
A couple of them on Rogers sports net up here are pretty funny.

I especially like when one of them is trying to get inside the pitcher's head and gets it completely wrong:laugh:

Yeah - but some of them are .... well silly. "Oh he has a batting average of X against right handed pitchers when the wind comes from the west and it is clouded" ..... okay, I exaggerate, but some of them are "out there"

Tower_Master wrote:Quite the addicting pastime, Xan - glad to hear you're enjoying the game! I'm curious - what teams' games have you been receiving/following? Just don't let yourself get sucked into the terrifying realm of "Fantasy" baseball - the depths of those waters are best left untested! <snip>

Well - addicting and addicting is a stretch

- but I find some of the games interesting (as I do many sports). If they actually get some hits and runners on bases, the game evolves very much. Picthers duels are dull

I think I've seen most of the teams by now in a few matches, but the only one which really stood out so far are the Cardinals which played some good matches I saw.

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:12 am

I only ever played slow pitch myself. So I don't REALLY understand, but left handed pitchers have a problem with right handed batters and vice versa. Managers will work their pitching changes around who is stepping up to the plate next. Little weird really.

Now I have seen them trot out "batter x is batting .350 with runners in scoring position with 2 outs". Huh? ho tracks this? Why can't I get a job tracking this? Where is my beer? Oh never mind there it is

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:25 am

jklinders wrote:Now I have seen them trot out "batter x is batting .350 with runners in scoring position with 2 outs". Huh? ho tracks this? Why can't I get a job tracking this? Where is my beer? Oh never mind there it is

The precise answer is the Elias Sports Bureau, so if you are a statistician you could apply to them for a job, they're in New York IIRC.

The more general answer is baseball addicts, er, like me.

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:11 pm

galraen wrote:The precise answer is the Elias Sports Bureau, so if you are a statistician you could apply to them for a job, they're in New York IIRC.

The more general answer is baseball addicts, er, like me.

I truely hope it went without saying my questions were rhetorical.

Tower_Master · Post by **Tower_Master** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:27 pm

Xandax wrote:<snip>the only one which really stood out so far are the Cardinals which played some good matches I saw.

Oh Xan. As fantastic a player as Albert Pujols is, and as much as I love Mark DeRosa, who they just acquired...I think, as a much-beleaguered Cubs fan, I'm morally required to hate you now. *Sigh* And to think I used to respect you!

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:20 pm

Tower_Master wrote:Oh Xan. As fantastic a player as Albert Pujols is, and as much as I love Mark DeRosa, who they just acquired...I think, as a much-beleaguered Cubs fan, I'm morally required to hate you now. *Sigh* And to think I used to respect you!

Don't worry - I'm used to that

Luckily - I almost never have any favorite team in any sport I watch (save national teams in international competitions, but that's mostly just a "patriot" ting), so I can much more often just enjoy the game(s), rather then feel obligated to root for one team or another

Another concept of baseball I have trouble understanding is the "Errors" concept. Is it purely statistically? Or does it have scoring meaning because otherwise, why go to such great lengths of assigning errors when somebody mess up?