Pure cleric, fighter/cleric or ranger/cleric for a newbie?

EternalWanderer · Post by **EternalWanderer** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:10 pm

I've started playing Baldur's gate with a sorceress, but after meeting some of the NPCs it seems like I'm going to end up with a party that's without mayor divine casters.

To be specific, it looks like I'll run with:

Jan (possibly replaced by Imoen)
Edwin (with the romance mod)
Valgyar (or possibly Haer Dalis if I like him better)
A tank (Keldorn, Mazzy or Minsc)
A spare slot for the other NPCs when I do their quests.

I know Keldorn and Mazzy get some divine stuff from their paladin side, but it's not as much as a cleric or druid would.

I have to admit I'm not quite new to the game but have quit early on several times over the years because I found it so difficult. I come from playing games like IWD2 and NWN before BG2, and I find the 2nd Ed D&D rules hard to grasp. All those multiclasses confuse me even more, I find it hard to tell what the role in a group is for a mage/thief, or a mage/cleric, what tactic to make them focus on.
So it might be best for me to focus on straight forward NPCs (with the exeption of mage/thief) for now, until I grasp the combat and magic tactics a bit better.

Anyway, I figured that a playing a cleric might make my own character more robust (I keep dying with my sorceress who walk in the front when I run into an ambush) without playing a pure fighter (which I hate). And with the cleric I can provide some much needed healing (mainly condition removal ), some nice bufs and turning undead is pretty handy too.

Now I'm not against multiclassing per se, in NWN I would add a few levels fighter for example to give a character some more attack power for example, and I can see that being handy in BG2 as well.
I don't like the idea of dual-classing, the game is hard enough for me without adding a period where my character is weak. but would a multi-class water my cleric down too much? Would I be better going pure cleric and get those high spell levels and loads of spells and provide support for the rest of my group?
But then again, the cleric/ranger with all the druid spells sounds awfully tempting as well... what would be easier to grasp for a struggling newb?

And while I'm typing.... what would be the best quests to do right after leaving Irenicus' dungeon? I vaguely remember doing the Circus and Nalia's Keep a few years ago, so this time around I tried to do something different.
So I went to the graveyard for Korgan but the undead and spiders wiped the floor with us, so I left and went to the Umar Hills but the temple area was very hard as well, our weapons and magic didn't seem to do much damage, and for some people no damage at all.
I'm assuming I need better gear and higher levels for those, so where would be a good place to go first of all?

I really want to get it this time, I love the party banter, the depth, the huge areas to explore and the game looks gorgeous. Trying it again this time something did click, but I do find the game very hard and unforgiving, and I know a large part of it is because I still don't have a good grasp on the tactics and the magic spells.
I'll keep reading to learn more on this site and other places where I can find strategy tips, but I think some advice on a solid, easy to use main character that isn't a fighter might allow me to learn the game better because then I can concentrate on controlling my companions a bit better, and learning what they are capable of.

My apologies for rambling on, I hope all you veterans can help this poor newbie in need.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:35 pm

Everybody has their preferences on these types of questions, so you'll get lots of different answers..
That being said, my personal favourite is a multiclass (ie Elf or Half Elf) ranger/cleric. I prefer multiclass because both classes will continue to go up in level. Ranger/Cleric is nice because you get druid spells in addition to cleric spells... this is worth it, if only for "Insect Swarm."

I usually start my game by first tackling the Circus, the Graveyard quests (not those involving the crypts) and the quests beneath the Copper Coronet (*hint* talk to Leviathan). After that I'll deal with a certain group of troublemakers in the upstairs area of the Seven Vales Inn (Waukeen's Promenade).

As far as the bigger quests go, the easiest (in my view anyway) are the Thieve's Guild and Nalia's Keep...

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:36 pm

Multiclass Ranger/Cleric is never a bad choice. Go for that.

Also, since you seem to be coming from NWN and D&D 3rd Edition, remember that ability scores work differently here. Read up on the tables in the back of your manual.
Long story short: keep rolling untill you have a 18/51+ in STR, 18 in DEX, CON & WIS. Dump INT & CHA. It really helps.

As for best quest to do: I seem to recall that quests scale with level. I always start with the Circus, then the Copper Coronet, then the Children/Slaves and then d'Arnise Keep.

Jordoo · Post by **Jordoo** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:19 pm

Fighter/Cleric vs Cleric/Ranger are the same character except the ranger get 2 extra proficiancies in two weapon style, charm animal, racial enemy, all the druid spells and stealth. If your a good eligment the only reason to chose the Fi/Cl is purely rollplaying.

Straight Clerics level up very quickly and thats there advantage.

I am very partial to the CL/RA one of the best characters in the game from a role playing and powergaming perspective IMO.

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:29 pm

Ranger/Cleric really needs to hit the exp cap to reach it's full power, and the class(in my opinion) works better in small parties or solo. You can get to your max levels (25C/21R) much easier, and neat extra spells like Insect Plague and Ironskins means that you don't need a druid, effectively filling 3 roles (melee, divine caster, druid) with one character. When playing with 4 or more NPC's along for the ride, a Fighter/Cleric might be a bit more effective due to faster leveling and (if dual classing, which is the best way to do this IMO) weapon Grandmastery and the possibility of taking the Berserker or Kensai kits. If Multi-classing, take Ranger/Cleric, regardless of party size.

As for quests, the Circus, Copper Coronet, Bridge District Murders, and Renal Bloodscalp's quests are all easy enough to finish within a couple of hours after exiting Irenicus' dungeon, and the latter one is particularly lucrative, earning you over 10000 gold.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:39 pm

First of all, there are at least three NPCs that make great clerics.

Second, being a multiclass cleric won't water down your divine spells that much, in fact the only difference in the end is the amount of spell slots you have. A ranger/cleric is a very powerful combination. Note that multiclassing in NWN and BG are different.

After getting out of Irenicus's dungeon, you should do the circus quest, following all of the quests that take place in the Slums district. After that, you want to roam around and possibly get your stronghold.

As for your sorceress, have spell protections up, most notably, Stoneskin.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:46 pm

Ranger/Cleric is one of the strongest builds in the game, the fact that you get all the Druid and Cleric spells really makes it too powerful if anything. One problem with it is you have to be good, and of course Edwin is evil, which may be problematic depending on your role-playing style, especially if you like playing chaotic-good characters. That puts the 'opposites attract' theory well and truly to the test.

If you have Throen of Bhaal loaded then the first thing I always do after exiting Chateau Irenicus is clear out the first level of Watcher's Keep (I usually do the circus first however). I then go for the slave freeing quests in the Copper Coronet. If you don't have Throne of Bhaal then obviously WK isn't available.

You could consider taking Jaheira with you instead of Valygar or Minsc, she's a far more powerful character IMO, and as you'll be playing a female the romance won't kick in. The other problem is having Minsc and Edwin in the same party really shouldn't work, I'm not sure if it does, but it would be a major blunder by Bioware if they don't try killing each other very quickly. I've never had them together mind, so someone else will have to clarify that.

If you can't stand Jaheira (you wouldn't be alone) then I'd say exit Chateau Irenicus with just Imoen (you'll need her for her thieving skills if nothing else).

Once you're free to explore pick up Jan immediately and start working with Renal Bloodscalp (to get Edwin). Korgan can be picked up right away, and he's a formidable fighter, but be aware his side quests kick in fairly quickly in my experience, you should be able to handle them though with Jan, Edwin and Korgan. You could add Anomen for a short period until you pick up one of the other characters.

Alternatively pick up the Umar Hills quests when you pick up Jan, get Edwin and head for the hills, picking up Valygar on the way, you'll soon pick up Mazzy too. This would probably be the quickest way to round up characters that were in your list, but it's going to be rather weak on frontline fighters. Your character is going to have to bear the brunt of the tank work until you can build up Mazzy and/or Valygar.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:30 pm

If you decide on some variation of cleric, one thing to mention since you're looking to do the Edwin romance is that "Eddie" requires his partner to be of relatively decent intelligence, I seem to recall the minimum is 14, but you'll need to double check. Something to bear in mind when you're rolling your character and distributing ability points.

And to underscore what has already been said... a multiclass ranger/cleric is *very* powerful, so if you are looking to avoid death this is a good way to go.
I mean, this character can heal, tank, cast some decent offensive and crowd management spells, and scout.
It doesn't get a lot better than that.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:47 pm

Ranger/cleric can be a great combination. Just keep in mind that you'll become a fallen ranger if your reputation drops too low.

A pure priest kit ist a good choice. You level fast and can cast high level spells at high casting level which is most important for the role of the party cleric.

A very good option is dualclassing. If you dualclass from ranger or fighter right at the start you'll have a cleric with extra hitpoints who does more than twice as much damage than a pure cleric (if you start as ranger you even get druid spells). The dualclassing period will be very short, once you've finished the starting dungeon which shouldn't be a problem the dualing period will be nearly over. And even during the dualing period your character will be less vulnerable than a pure or multiclass cleric, the extra hitpoints and the ability to use armor get never disabled. A multiclass will be far weaker until the end if you don't have ToB and even with ToB most of will be over once the multiclass becomes that strong.

You can also continue playing with your sorceress, Anomen can fullfill both the tank and cleric role, no need for Keldorn or Minsc.

Toxeus · Post by **Toxeus** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:26 am

EternalWanderer wrote:I do find the game very hard and unforgiving, and I know a large part of it is because I still don't have a good grasp on the tactics and the magic spells.

Read this guide

Baldur's Gate II - Spells Reference

EternalWanderer · Post by **EternalWanderer** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:57 pm

Wow, thank you all for the detailed help!

I think I might reroll as a neutral good ranger/cleric. I love the idea of that character RP wise. Ive got the mod where NPCs won't leave regardless of alignment, so that should help with my party.

Dragon wench, thanks for the heads up on the intelligence required for Edwin's romance, I'll make sure my character will be smart enough to dazzle him.

I think I'll pick up Jan, Edwin, Val and possibly Mazzy (or drag Anomen along until I feel confident enough to tackle that area again) and then do the tent, slums and some of the other quests you all recommended, before heading out to the surrounding areas.

Toxeus, thank you for that link, that should help me a lot with picking spells for my group. The nice thing of playing such an old game is that there is so much information available that explains things to confused people like me, as long as you know where to look and ask

I forgot to mention I do not own ToB, unfortunately. I was looking around the shops yesterday to see if any still stocked the compilation boxes with BG1, 2 and both expansions. I could have sworn they had them a few weeks ago, but now I want to buy them they were gone ofcourse

I'll get to it eventually, but for now I'll play vanilla.

So, having that in mind, and from what people said, I would be better off dual classing rather then multiclassing? I do have a mod that removes the XP cap AFAIK. If I dual, can I still have the ranger stronghold? I do like the idea of a cabin in the wood more then a churchy place (which i assume those classes would go for?)
I suppose the stronghold is not the most important thing though, as long as the class plays well.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:23 pm

You can get the Ranger stronghold when dual classing ONLY if you complete the Umar Hills quest before dual-classing. Personally I would go with multi classing. I strongly disagree with the idea that multi-classed Cleric-Rangers aren't powerful until late in the game, quite the reverse in my experience. I'd recommend getting as many points in flails as soon as possible, mace is also good, but IMO the best weapon for a C/R is a flail. Hammers are OK, but the best hammer isn't available if you believe in strict role-playing and you're of good alignment; If you aren't then a very useful hammer can be obtained late in the game.

Check out E-Bay and Amazon for Throne of Bhaal, it really, really, is worth it.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:37 pm

EternalWanderer wrote: Dragon wench, thanks for the heads up on the intelligence required for Edwin's romance, I'll make sure my character will be smart enough to dazzle him.

I think I'll pick up Jan, Edwin, Val and possibly Mazzy (or drag Anomen along until I feel confident enough to tackle that area again) and then do the tent, slums and some of the other quests you all recommended, before heading out to the surrounding areas.

I forgot to mention I do not own ToB, unfortunately. I was looking around the shops yesterday to see if any still stocked the compilation boxes with BG1, 2 and both expansions. I could have sworn they had them a few weeks ago, but now I want to buy them they were gone ofcourse
I'll get to it eventually, but for now I'll play vanilla.

So, having that in mind, and from what people said, I would be better off dual classing rather then multiclassing? I do have a mod that removes the XP cap AFAIK. If I dual, can I still have the ranger stronghold? I do like the idea of a cabin in the wood more then a churchy place (which i assume those classes would go for?)
I suppose the stronghold is not the most important thing though, as long as the class plays well.

Heh, no problems

Your party looks pretty good. It's a tossup between Mazzy and Anomen. Anomen will have lots of backup healing and tanking power. On the other hand.. Mazzy is superb with a good bow, and she can also gain melee grandmastery. Granted... she's limited in the weapons she can actually use, but it's still nice, and there are some decent short swords around (though.. unfortunately the best is only an option in ToB). I have Mazzy in my current party and once I gave her the strength belt you can get at the Adventurer's Mart she turned into an absolute juggernaut of destruction..

Also, if you are thinking of grabbing Valygar, he and Mazzy have some nice interaction

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Baldurs-Gate-Expansion-Throne-Bhaal-Pc/dp/B000059L4Q"]Throne of Bhaal for sale[/url]

Regarding multi vs dual...
You'll get lots of debate on this subject. Although [url="http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=122481"]this guide[/url] is designed with the solo player in mind, you might still find it helpful in terms of deciding.
Personally.. I prefer the multi, it's less hassle and I like playing half-elves; the whole concept works for me at an RP level. I played one of these the last time around and believe me... you have no shortage of hit points.

Concerning your choice of strongholds... I'd *definitely* suggest the Ranger Stronghold... The Cleric equivalent pales in comparison. Plus... you get a pretty nice reward when you finish the ranger stronghold quests..

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:06 pm

Experiment all you want, try creating a single class human ranger, and a dual classed half-elf Cleric-ranger. Bear in mind that if you opt for a human that you should only place weapon proficiency points in weapons a cleric can use, putting them in any other weapon, longsword for example, would be a waste of points.

One thing that will become immediately apparent is that a human ranger will be only seventh level, and if you dual-class right away will always be a stunted fighter. On the other hand a Cleric-Ranger starts out 6th level in both, and will reach seventh level ranger before leaving the first dungeon, it really is no contest in my opinion. If we were talking about a dual classed fighter/cleric then it would be a completely different ball game, there would be a lot of advantages in becoming a 9th level fighter before dual classing to cleric, five proficiency points in flail would be very tempting. On the other hand I can't see any advantage at all in dual classing at 9th level ranger, a few more hit points maybe but that's about it. With Throne of Bhall installed there's even less sense in dual-classing, as you'd never get fighter's High Level Abilities, whereas a multi-classed Cleric-Ranger will.

EternalWanderer · Post by **EternalWanderer** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:09 pm

I think I'll go multi... it just sounds like less hassle, and I'm sure the amount of grey hair on my head has multiplied at an alarming rate as it is since I decided to attempt this game again

So less hassle it is.
I'm an odd beast when it comes to RPGs, I don't mind powerful builds and a little sidehelping of cheese, but part of me needs to be able to feel comfortable with that from an RPG perspective. The Ranger/cleric just sounds like a wonderful character that will satisfy both needs.

I'll probably end up with Mazzy since I simply like her more then Anomen, but he'll do while we're questing in the city until we make a dash for the hills.

I saw this box for sale a while ago in Dublin: [url="http://www.amazon.com/Baldurs-Gate-4-1-Boxset-PC/dp/B000FGA1US/ref=dp_cp_ob_vg_title_2"]linkie[/url]
Hopefully I'll find it again, else I'll have to find it on ebay since Amazon won't ship PC games to Ireland for some reason.
I might treat myself on it if I finally manage to finish BG2.

Okay, I'm off to roll my new ranger/cleric, thank you all for the help again.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:18 pm

galraen wrote: One thing that will become immediately apparent is that a human ranger will be only seventh level, and if you dual-class right away will always be a stunted fighter.

Not true at all. 7 ranger levels nearly grant everything this class has to offer.
The dualclass doesn't have to share XP among classes, so thac0 (+2 to hit every 675,000 instead of 1,200,000 XP) improves nearly twice as fast and you gain proficiency points twice as fast too.

An example: At 2,950,000 XP the ranger7/cleric dualclass will have far better fighting power than the dualclass. More hitpoints, more proficiency points and better thac0. And there's also the far superior casting power, cleric level 20 instead of 14 grants 3 extra layers of iron skins so she can absorb 3 extra hits without taking damage, and other spells like DUHM can also be cast more often and more effectively.
So the multiclass is the stunted fighter.

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:24 pm

kmonster wrote:Not true at all. 7 ranger levels nearly grant everything this class has to offer.
The dualclass doesn't have to share XP among classes, so thac0 (+2 to hit every 675,000 instead of 1,200,000 XP) improves nearly twice as fast and you gain proficiency points twice as fast too.

An example: At 2,950,000 XP the ranger7/cleric dualclass will have far better fighting power than the dualclass. More hitpoints, more proficiency points and better thac0. And there's also the far superior casting power, cleric level 20 instead of 14 grants 3 extra layers of iron skins so she can absorb 3 extra hits without taking damage, and other spells like DUHM can also be cast more often and more effectively.
So the multiclass is the stunted fighter.

One thing I would like to point out is that the dual-class option will not get Greater Whirlwind as a HLA; this alone could set the multi-class leagues above the dual in terms of melee power.

I guess I should mention that a level 21 Ranger has the exact same thac0 as a level 40 ranger, which happens to be much, MUCH better than a level 7 Ranger.

So no, the multi-class is not the stunted fighter. It is a weaker caster, getting 4 less level 7 spells, but it's fighting skills are leagues above the dual-classes.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:37 pm

Berethor wrote:
So no, the multi-class is not the stunted fighter. It is a weaker caster, getting 4 less level 7 spells, but it's fighting skills are leagues above the dual-classes.

Indeed. I see this much as I see the debate between mage and sorcerer..
So what if there are less spells... So many of the spells, both arcane and divine, are useless that it makes sense to just focus on the decent ones.

Thrain · Post by **Thrain** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:28 am

doesn't the spell holy power work just like divine power in 3.5? that alone gives the dual class an edge.

having said that, in the late (read: ToB) game, getting high level fighter abilities is priceless.

i seem to recall also that above a certain level, you don't really gain that much as a spellcaster, which is why f/m/t at the experience cap are amazing...

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:10 am

To be fair to kmonster, I had forgotten that the original poster doesn't have ToB, so the HLAs aren't relevant. In which case the dual-class option is the better of the two. In the early stages of the game, even when the DC character regains the ranger class, the edge is with the MC. The balance then swings the other way in the imid portion of the game as kmonster points out, although once you get above 13th level ranger, the edge starts to swing back to the multi-classed character. However without HLAs the difference in fighting ability is minimal so in that case DC is the better option.