Question About Revan references in the sequel

[Uncle_Vanya]

I am a little puzzled. From what I understand you are supposed to determine what happened in KOTOR 1 during your first conversation with Atton. You determine Revan's gender and light side/dark side ending. I picked Revan to be male and a light side ending during that conversation. Later however Kreia told me that Revan was captured by the Jedi, then escaped them and killed Malak (thus dark side ending), later still the Handmaiden went into the whole dark side thing between Malak and Revan (hinting at the Dark Side ending). I've gotten to the Handmaiden convo, then restarted the game (mostly for other reasons), I just started it again, made sure I selected male/light side in the Atton convo, got to that first Kreia convo on Ebon Hawk and I get the Dark Side references again. Any idea what is going on? Or am I missing or misunderstanding something?

--edit--

After having another conversation with Kreia I am even more confused. She says that Revan escaped the Jedi and went to finish off Malak (thus the dark side ending?), also says that after Revan defeated Malak Korriban came to ruin. Then I get a dialogue option that goes something like "So Revan defeated Malak for the sake of the Republic" and Kreia says "It would seem that way" (Lightside ending?). What the hell is going on here?

[Loki[D.d.G]]

Before I start, an obvious question; Have you played KotOR I before?


Right, on with the discussion. The first thing you have to realize early on is that the characters in KotOR II all give their perspective on events which occurred in the prequel. Key word here is; their. Hence, you get different opinions on Revan, depending on who you are speaking too.

Handmaiden is an Echani who respects combat as an art form and expression. Hence, she will hint that Revan turned on Malak because of his betrayal, and that in the final battle, he revealed his true feelings on the matter. But that is up to you to decipher for yourself. While it remains true that in both the DS and LS endings of K1, Malak ends up dead, whether or not Revan did so because he wanted revenge is anyone's guess. Mostly determined by the player him/herself based on the role your were playing in K1.

Kreia on the other hand is a twisted and manipulative hag. She makes it seem as if her old padawan turned against the Republic and subsequently Malak to fend off a bigger threat to the galaxy. Again, what she says is up for personal interpretation, determined by the role you played as Revan in the prequel.

That takes care of your companions opinions. Now to the hard facts.

K2 assumes that the prequel ended with Revan defeating and killing Malak thus saving the Republic, regardless of his/her alignment. The only thing which differs if Revan is set to LS or DS is his motivations for doing so. Also, bear in mind that K2 was made by Obsidian, not the original devs at Bioware. The final product is by no means a complete article, rather a botched up work of art. This means that there are some plot holes and wrong references to K1 in the Sith Lords.

[Uncle_Vanya]

Yes, I beat KOTOR I recently, and this is my second playthrough for KOTOR II, the last one was years ago though.

The biggest thing is in all of this, is what hologram will T3 play aka Bastila being evil or not evil. I set Revan to lightside in Atton convo (which is how I finished K1), so I expect that the cameo appearances by K1 characters will reflect that.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

The biggest thing is in all of this, is what hologram will T3 play aka Bastila being evil or not evil. I set Revan to lightside in Atton convo (which is how I finished K1), so I expect that the cameo appearances by K1 characters will reflect that.

You got that right. But IIRC, the hologram T3 plays of Bastila if you set Revan to LS doesn't vary much from the one you get with a DS Revan. And I can't quite recall, but the cameo appearances by K1 characters are few and far between regardless of Revan's alignment/gender setting. So doing either wont make you lose out on much. I could be horribly wrong here though, don't hold it against me.

[galraen]

I don't recall any difference in the hologram T3 plays either. The only place I can recall a hologram being different is on Korriban, where there is only a hologram if Revan was dark side, none if he was light side.

In K1, the game always ends with Revan killing Malek, there is no other way to end, well, unless you lose.

[Nightmare]

The only differences in the cameos is gender based, since if you set Revan as female, only Carth appears in the hologram and later on Telos. The only time you'll see Bastila is in a flashback in the Dark Side tomb.

As Loki said, each of the characters will give their interpretation of the end of KotOR 1. This is also true of the general plot of the first game...many people you'll encounter on all the worlds will refer to the "Jedi Civil War" and portray it as more a religious war between Jedi than a strict Jedi vs. Sith battle. It's not exactly what happened, but from their perspective...

[Epithet]

There is indeed great differences in T3's holographic message depending on what gender and alignment you set Revan to. If Revan is male, only Bastila will appear. Carth if Revan is female.

For DS female Revan, Carth's message is only from before the Ebon Hawk reaches the Star Forge at the end of KotOR1 (because Revan killed Carth), but if female Revan is LS, Carth's message is clearly recorded a year later, when Carth senses that Revan will leave the Republic.

For the male LS Revan, Bastila is clearly concerned and charges T3 with coming back if something happens to Revan. But for the DS male Revan, Bastila is a harsh Sith and mentions that T3 should stand by Revan, because Bastila is uncertain that any of the sith lords on Korriban have the power to use the Star Forge.

Basically, if Carth appears as a republic admiral during any of the Harbinger holologs, then you know Revan is set to light side, because if Revan is DS, Carth won't appear and instead be replaced by Admiral Cede.

If Carth is in the Harbinger holologs and T3 has a holographic message from Bastila, then Revan is male and lightsided. Period.

I guess what might throw you is all the references to Revan's nasty deeds.

Well, for one, NEVER take anything Kreia says at face value. She never lies outright, but she also NEVER tells the truth. If Kreia tells you water is wet, then check for yourself and ask three other people first before you believe her.

Also, remember that the game plot strives to presume only those things about Revan that are immaterial to your LS/DS choices in K1. Even if you chose the LS ending of K1 and set Revan to LS in the conversation with Atton, Revan was still Darth Revan for several years of the Jedi Civil War, and he still did a lot of nasty things during those days. It wasn't until after he was captured by Bastila and "reprogrammed" by the council that Revan has a LS/DS choice. Before that he was Darth Revan, lord of the sith, and he used the Mandalorian Wars (which precede K1 by about five years and K2 by about a decade) to corrupt the jedi into loyal sith under his command. Don't forget that in TSL, the events of the Mandalorian Wars that precede K1 are actually more important to the plot that the Jedi Civil War you experienced in K1. TSL is about the exile, and she was not present for the Jedi Civil War at all.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

Don't forget that in TSL, the events of the Mandalorian Wars that precede K1 are actually more important to the plot that the Jedi Civil War you experienced in K1. TSL is about the exile, and she was not present for the Jedi Civil War at all.

The main reason for this is because K2 was still being written as K1 was undergoing its development process. And thus, the devs couldn't get a clear picture of what was actually going to happen in the latter stages of the Jedi Civil War, i.e. the events you partake in as an amnesiac Revan. Thus, they wrote on the only solid platform they had. The Mandalorian Wars; and filled in the blanks later.

[Epithet]

The main reason for this is because K2 was still being written as K1 was undergoing its development process. And thus, the devs couldn't get a clear picture of what was actually going to happen in the latter stages of the Jedi Civil War, i.e. the events you partake in as an amnesiac Revan. Thus, they wrote on the only solid platform they had. The Mandalorian Wars; and filled in the blanks later.

Actually, Chris Avellone has said in the past that the development team initially wasn't even allowed to play the first game and so had no clue who Revan even was for a fair amount of time. Considering how great a presence Revan is in the sequel without ever appearing, it suggests how much the plot changed during production. I've always thought the exile's major problem and most conflicts in the game stemmed from the Mandalorian Wars, because Revan's LS/DS choice at the end of K1 could then be avoided or worked around instead of writing essentially two different plots depending on the choice in the last game. For example, the question of whether the Star Forge was destroyed or not is a virtual non-factor in TSL. Not because it doesn't matter, but simply because the central conflict in the game centers around the battle of Malachor V.

[galraen]

Chris Avellone is full of it, forever coming up with excuses and blaming eveyone else for Obsidians failures in K2. I doubt there's any truth in the non-sense about not being able to play K1, what was to stop them, you know, buying it? If the excuse is the rubish about writing K2 before K1 was finished, then that blows the 'we didn't have enough time' excuse out of the water, can't have it both ways.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

Not because it doesn't matter, but simply because the central conflict in the game centers around the battle of Malachor V.

In my opinion, it is things like this which point towards what a botched up job K2 was. They had a perfectly good story on their hands and ruined it by trying to integrate too much of K1 into the plot.

[Nightmare]

I rather liked how much the game examined the first game, since it explored a part (the Mandalorian Wars) that was simply dismissed as a mistake in the first game. It's focus on it made the game more of a prequel than anything.

Either way, it's fairly well-known on the boards that I think the second game is far, far superior to the first, so I won't really bother debating it.

[Epithet]

Chris Avellone is full of it, forever coming up with excuses and blaming eveyone else for Obsidians failures in K2. I doubt there's any truth in the non-sense about not being able to play K1, what was to stop them, you know, buying it? If the excuse is the rubish about writing K2 before K1 was finished, then that blows the 'we didn't have enough time' excuse out of the water, can't have it both ways.

That is totally unfounded. For one, Avellone has always accepted responsibility for the state K2 ended up in. Not once have I seen him lay the blame for that with LA.

I thought it could have used less content or more time to cook, take your pick, but the content issues are mine, so if you wish to laud hate upon it, feel free to target me, but save any praise you have for the rest of the team. I should have cut a planet or drastically scaled down the cut scenes in the game[/url]

Honestly, cut down on the unfounded accusations. Nobody at Obsidian ever blamed LA openly, possibly because they didn't want to ruin their chances of doing K3. They're still hoping to do K3 btw. And if the publisher tells you not to play the game, then as a developer you don't. Period. LA was the publisher and they own Star Wars. Whatever they say goes in a situation like that. Besides, not playing K1 was LA's initial take, so blame them (again) for it, if you need to. Avellone soon overruled that and had the team go through ALL existing Star Wars books, movies and comic books. Yup, they read through ALL of it...

Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Designer Diary #2 - Xbox Previews at GameSpot

And if you want a source critical against Lucasarts on this matter, rather than pointing towards Avellone and Obsidian, you'll have more like here:

GameSpy: The Resident Cynic: A Rush and A Push - Page 1

In my opinion, it is things like this which point towards what a botched up job K2 was. They had a perfectly good story on their hands and ruined it by trying to integrate too much of K1 into the plot.

I disagree totally. K2 has a fantastic plot and integrates K1's plot well. The problem is that they didn't get to finish the game and so the endgame is terrible. Malachor is reduced a hour-long unending, boring slashfest that lacks the good writing the rest of the game had. But until the Ebon Hawk (and incidentally the plot) crash on Malachor V, the game was great.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

The problem is that they didn't get to finish the game and so the endgame is terrible. Malachor is reduced a hour-long unending, boring slashfest that lacks the good writing the rest of the game had. But until the Ebon Hawk (and incidentally the plot) crash on Malachor V, the game was great.

It wasn't only the ending IMO. There are other parts that K2 doesn't quite explain properly. For instance, how does the Ebon Hawk return to known space after it was abandoned by Revan? How did HK get damaged and had his innards scattered throughout the galaxy? How did Kreia manage to track down the Hawk? The story of K2 was good, better and more creative than that of K1, true. But the devs didn't do a good job of actually telling that story. Again, this is pretty subjective and depends on preferences I suppose. Each to his own

[Epithet]

It wasn't only the ending IMO. There are other parts that K2 doesn't quite explain properly. For instance, how does the Ebon Hawk return to known space after it was abandoned by Revan?

You'll know exactly how if you ever unlocked T3's secret holomessage.

How did HK get damaged and had his innards scattered throughout the galaxy?

He actually explains that when he is activated and you build enough influence with him for him to talk about his previous owner.

How did Kreia manage to track down the Hawk?

Ah yes. Good catch. Yes, that is a part of the story that has always been left pretty vague. She infers that she was on the Ebon Hawk when it found the Harbinger, but I agree her story didn't add up. Kreia still owed us an explanation there.

But TSL have lots of stuff like that. Is it truly important for the story to tell us how Kreia wound up on the Ebon Hawk? Not really. And since you ask about for Kreia, why not Atton? How did Atton wind up on Peragus? He's not a miner, so what is he even doing there? And how did he arrive? Atton never tells us that either. That's if he really is "Atton". The whole matter of Atton's terrible secret casts suspicion on whether that's really his name, but we never find out more about that. But is it really important to the plot? No.

The story of K2 was good, better and more creative than that of K1, true. But the devs didn't do a good job of actually telling that story. Again, this is pretty subjective and depends on preferences I suppose. Each to his own

Well, I guess I'd have to agree that the story is told badly at least in certain places if for no other reasons than because you actually have to play through the game two or three times and pay very close attention to what Kreia and the jedi masters tell you at certain points to even understand what the heck is going on. They keep tip-toeing around the whole force wound thing and goes to so great lengths to not spoil anything that when it's finally time to reveal it, it's all dumped on you so quickly that don't quite catch on. This is the sort of thing that indicates a rushed development schedule.

[galraen]

Content deleted, I'll take my own advice and not bother debating with epithet.

PS Not fair to just say that I guess.

Look Epithet it's obvious you think Avellone and Obsidian are wonderful and I think the opposite. If you want to ignore interviews where Avellone and others blamed LA for giving them too short a time, then there really is no point in continuing the discussion.

In one interview Avellone even revealed an amazing ignorance of the game, insisting that ths Sith who provides you with Visas, your strongest ally IMO, and then provides you with the weakest boss fight in the game is the main opponent!

As for K2 having a great storyline, you are joking right? What's so novel about a Jedi waking up with no memories, and all his force powers stripped, who then spends the rest of the game refinding his memory and powers whilst being dogged by assassins? Now where have we come across that before. At least K1 actually had an ending, something Obsidian couldn't be assed with.

That's it, Galrean out.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

You'll know exactly how if you ever unlocked T3's secret holomessage.

He actually explains that when he is activated and you build enough influence with him for him to talk about his previous owner.

Both the above weren't explained quite well, IMO. As you said, the story is vague in parts. Perhaps that vagueness is a mark of a genius of a storyline, or perhaps it is a sign of a botched job. I prefer to think the latter, but again I repeat what I typed before, each to his own.

We have somehow managed to bring talk of Revan way off topic too. And opinions can be discussed to death and then some. On that note, I'll take a leaf out of galraen's book and sign off too.

[Epithet]

Look Epithet it's obvious you think Avellone and Obsidian are wonderful and I think the opposite.

I'm neither an Avellone nor an Obsidian fan, but that does not prevent me from appreciating the work they did on TSL... Or rather the work they intended to do on TSL, I should say.

If you want to ignore interviews where Avellone and others blamed LA for giving them too short a time, then there really is no point in continuing the discussion.

Provide evidence for such interviews. I've provided evidence to the contrary. And you both ignore it and insist on the opposite without giving a source. After all, if you did that, I might have to revise my position. Oh, except that I "think Avellone and Obsidian are wonderful" and so will be biased regardless. Well, never mind then.

In one interview Avellone even revealed an amazing ignorance of the game, insisting that ths Sith who provides you with Visas, your strongest ally IMO, and then provides you with the weakest boss fight in the game is the main opponent!

That doesn't even make sense to me. I'm not going to deny Nihilus was executed poorly. He was. He was a pushover and went down far too easily. Nihilus should have been nearly impossible to defeat. Dramatically Nihilus is awesome, but when it comes time to do the actual fight, it's a letdown. I don't deny it. It should have been completely impossible to win against Nihilus until after he tries to drain the exile. But that's just mechanics. The build-up to Nihilus is still great.

As for K2 having a great storyline, you are joking right?

No.

What's so novel about a Jedi waking up with no memories, and all his force powers stripped, who then spends the rest of the game refinding his memory and powers whilst being dogged by assassins?

You do realize that is just as much a stab against KotOR1 as it is against TSL, right? In fact more so, since the exile hasn't lost his/her memories. She just chooses not to talk about them and repress them. And that turns out to be at the very center of the game's plot and conflict.

Now where have we come across that before. At least K1 actually had an ending, something Obsidian couldn't be assed with.

Two things here...

First, yes Obsidian could be bothered to write an ending. But sadly Lucasarts wouldn't let them put it in the game because it was more important to push the game out the door in time for christmas than it was to actually finish the game. And when Obsidian then wanted to do a content patch for the game, Lucasarts wouldn't allow it.

Second, "ending" can mean several things. If you mean not everything was resolved, then you're quite correct. TSL was always meant to have an open ending by design. That wasn't just Obsidian's idea. TSL was always meant to be followed by a KotOR3, and it was even in development until a few months before TSL shipped. It was like ending "Empire Strikes Back" with Han captured by Boba Fett and Luke in turmoil over his confrontation with Vader, which was fine because everybody knew the next movie would be out a couple of years later. TSL was always meant to mirror that. But then Lucasarts fired a bunch of people and cancelled KotOR3. And they left it in limbo for five years, while Obsidian has repeatedly been begging for the chance to do KotOR3. Again, if you want to blame someone for that, Lucasarts is the place to direct your disappointment. They agreed to the ending we got in TSL. Indeed, they forced that ending by pushing the deadline instead of the ending Obisidian wanted to do.

[Uncle_Vanya]

Thanks for the help everyone, things are advancing as they should be now that I am deeper into the game.

And yes, playing KOTOR games, as my love for KOTOR grew, my hate for Lucasarts grew equally. But I am sure there are plenty of threads on here about the plight of the KOTOR fans who have been disappointed by KOTOR3's death, and an introduction of a MOMORPEGER in its stead. I say we use fire and heavy blunt objects upon George "the douche" Lucas to accomplish our goals, but thats just me. Anyways, moving on...