2 Echoes in the Force

[Kaja Sinis]

There are Echoes in the Force. Many believe that these echoes must be silenced to maintain balance. Are these believers Dark Jedi? Sith? True Sith? What have you, but Kreia certainly used the Exile, and made it clear that s/he, and Revan were both Echoes. So at this point, after all the arguing, I think it's safe to say that even if they're not playable, the Exile and Revan must reappear to patch things up in KOTOR III. I've also read many of you predicting how the game will start, what bugs should be tweaked, how gameplay should differ, etc. However, I haven't heard many of you elaborate on how the plot should play out for these Echoes in the Force. Most of the posts are arguments as to whether the Exile and Revan should return at all. I'm very sure that they will, and I'm curious to know what you all think about how these Echoes' plots will thicken. I have a feeling that the True Sith or whatever will not be the only major obstacle in the story. Could it be that perhaps you choose among the Exile and Revan at some point and align them, and the other would align opposite? For example: You choose Revan LS, your nemesis becomes Exile DS, and so on. Maybe you choose to side with one or the other, causing tension within the cronies like Bastila, Carth, Brianna, Atton, etc. Any feedback you guys and gals are willing to give on the depths of how KOTOR III should go about is appreciated here. Now I'm going to take the time to shout random blurbs that I need to get off my chest. Feel free to comment on these as well. I LOVE UNLOCKED PLASTEEL CYLINDERS! I HATE GO-TO! ZAALBAR IS COOL! HANHARR IS GAY! I REALLY HATED GO-TO MORE THAN ANYTHING! ::huff:: ::sigh::

P.S. ~ We should petition for Bioware to take on the full monty of the KOTOR III project, and kick Obsidian out on the curb, and also to end GO-TO early in the finished product. I never valued his opinions, nor wanted to even hear them, do any of his tasks, or look at his fat round shell. If he wouldve picked on Remote anymore I would've stopped playing the game. To hell with GO-TO and the Exchange!

[Darth Zenemij]

My thought exactly Keja. Really not many members have elaborated on how they will effect the next game, but how/when/should/will/why/where should they come in. They are obviously return in the games. They are major roles in the games and the story line. But I'm not sure how they would affect the game right now.

[mrthingyx]

It's a pain, this one - who knows what the Lucasarts boffins will decree regarding the 'echos in the force?' They could opt for the 'cancelling soundwaves' idea, i.e. when the Exile and Revan meet they come to a decision to safeguard the Force for eternity and eliminate themselves as per Neo vs. Agent Smith in the Matrix (turd, but seeing as this is conjecture anyway...).

Or they could go for the whole 'New Jedi Order' type of line, where both Revan and the Evile return from the Sith Empire to reforge the Jedi into a more complete knowledge and understanding of the Force from its previous entity riddled with stagnated dogma and apparently narrow-minded beliefs.

It gets even more complicated when entering into the philosophical arena with this question: throughout our history, it is clear and evident that ignorance of certain truths breeds extremism, fractures society and brings social evolution to a halt, so would the Jedi Order be any different? More destruction (albeit in the future) would only be wrought if the Jedi once again decided to keep Revan and the Evile's true nature a secret. So what would be done? If both the Exile and Revan are lightsiders, they'll return (if they're not killed) from the Outer Rim and continue to teach the Jedi of what they know, ensuring their growth for the future... Consider Kreia's POV that the Force doesn't distinguish between light and dark. But then, how would that account for the polarising beliefs of the Jedi Order four thousand years later? Difficult one.

But then, I don't think either the Sith, their True counterparts or the old Jedi Order wanted to keep the so-called echos around either way... the Jedi exile them or try and strip them of the Force, yet nothing is really known of what the true Dark Lords want to do with them. In KOTOR II, we see the Council exiling the main character because they are petrified of what he/she could be and mean for the future. They are also very quick to lamp Revan's reputation with the same stroke but are divided over whether it was the teachings of the Jedi that led to his/her fall or his/her teacher. Kreia apparently points out at some point that Revan was probably the only Jedi to choose to walk a dark path as it was the only way he could see of destroying the greater threat to the Republic, the True Sith.

As to destroying the source of the echos, Kreia seems to be the only one who doesn't like the idea of the Force having a will of its own hence her attempts at destroging the Exile and therefore the Force itself (or deafening the entire Force-sensitive population of the galaxy)... Once the Council reconvenes at the Enclave on Dantooine to pass judgement on the Exile once again and (according to my character, anyway) say that the reasons for his unparalleled strength are a direct result of all of the death he's caused feeding the wound within him and making it greater in power. Now is this the Council being stupid and narrowminded again as in the first place? Or is it true? If it's true, then surely protecting life and selfless sacrifice will help the wound to either heal or amplify its power in a different way?

As to how it will wind up as a story, that's anybody's guess. However, I do think that the KOTOR games so far can be likened to the original Star Wars trilogy: KOTOR I was like 'A New Hope' in that it was a more or less straight-down-the-line hero comes back to kick his old friend's posterior with a nice, complete ending and gets the girl (canonical ending, anyway); KOTOR II was 'Empire Strikes Back' where the story gets a lot dirtier and harder to break down into good vs. bad on the main character's level - it also makes the audience think a bit harder about what is actually going on...; KOTOR III therefore should be reasonably simple in the end, but determining what will actually happen was complicated by the non-endings of the first two... if people are honest about it, a DS ending to KOTOR basically renders KOTOR II pointless (Revan takes over the galaxy completely so there would be no Exile, no restoration of Telos, Korriban would have been rebuilt, etc.). So Lucasarts have now given themselves an exponentially complicated task of drawing all the possible threads of story into two satisfying endings.

Either way, I hope G0-T0 rusts, Bao-Dur gets a planetary shielding contract and no longer travels with the Ebon Hawk and that HK-47 goes to find his master.

[Kaja Sinis]

Intrigue

I'm grateful for the intriguing feeback. I forgot about Kreia's line about the Force being an indiscriminant entity. But then it raises the eyebrow regarding her resentment of the Force having its own innate will over all things. Could the "Will of the Force" indeed have its own agenda, and yet not serve purpose towards either good or evil? I find it difficult to believe that the omnipresent, omniscient Force would have, so to say, "Cruel Intentions". It also slipped me about the vision in the cave that the Exile has about Atton telling me that Kreia is a Dark Jedi. I played LS so I naturally chose the option to defend her standing in an attempt of a non-violent solution. Of course we know that you're then attacked by the shadow Atton and Visas and whoever. But anyway, it was plain and simple at that point, and yet the PC is supposed to not be so sure yet. The Dark Jedi agenda is still unclear to me, however from observing Kreia's role, they seem to be self-oriented as much as any Sith, but don't necessarily seek ultimate power. Their roles are much different and much more mysterious to me. I'd compare them to religious terrorist organizations of today. They have extremist, impenetrable belief structures that cause outright harm in their paths, all with their own twists and deceptions within the Force. So the question does lay there: Was Kreia telling the truth about deafening the Force-sensitives? Was the Exile's elimination truly her key to achieve? If we are to truly believe that, we must first decide if we think Kreia herself truly believed it. Maybe, maybe not. But then would she have to eliminate Revan as well? Ironically enough for Kreia, I believe the Will of the Force chose the Exile to return, and with Kreia's aid, trace the steps of Revan to seek him/her out, and reconnect with the Force. The Force ultimately used her, which would contribute to her theories of being predestined, and her resentment for such. So now we're stuck in what mrthingyx calls 'anybody's guess'. What is in the will of the Force for the Echoes? The Jedi Council gave my character the same lashing. A terrible wound in the Force, ay? I think they were too conservative with the Mandalorians indeed, but perhaps they really DID know that Darth Revan and Darth Malak would emerge, that Taris would be destroyed, that the Exile would become another Echo in the Force, as the ultimate liability. I can only try to narrow it down to a few simplistic possible solutions. Of course these are extremely premature, and 100% speculative:

Revan vs. Exile - (Neo vs. Agent Smith theory) <<Good one! >>
Revan and Exile vs. True Sith/Dark Jedi - (The true redemption and forgiveness of the Force ~ LS)
New Force Sensitive Protagonist and remaining Jedi vs. Revan and Exile/True Sith - (Not very likely, but I wrote a piece on how they could revert Revan and the Exile to level 1 status in another thread. Check it out!

[DarthSpiden]

all i am goin to say is that kotor did fine without involving echoes, but the sith lords had to use it and kill it and beat it to a pulp. It is crazy with a k and a x. i hated it so much i wanted to shoot myself. echo this echo that, hey you just created another echo son of a @#$%# your an echo i am goin to kill you. i was like if I hear the word echo again i am going to get violent, then my phone rang and i answered and my friend said and I quote " hey what is that, an echo in your phone?" and I , or his family,haven't seen him since. J/k but I really hate and despise and any other word for dislike I use for stupid ass echoes.

if kotor 3 even mentions an echo i will destroy the game with an echo made out of boulders.

[bigredpanda]

If he wouldve picked on Remote anymore I would've stopped playing the game.

if kotor 3 even mentions an echo i will destroy the game with an echo made out of boulders.

heh heh, passionate gamers here.

The whole echo in the force was fascinating in K2. I have a suspicion, though, that if K3 is made, it will veer away from the complex and deep themes and opt for something more storylike - its the way that games are being made these days, games which require less attention span. This is a shame, because one of the reasons I prefer K2 over K1 is that it remains so ambiguous throughout.

And I still think people are a bit harsh on Obsidian - they did tweak alot of the features of the game to make them better.

[Drahzeem]

Maybe the Exile and Revan shouldn't return at all due to the fact that the third game doesn't know what portrait and stats and prestige class you choose for the first and second game. There may be another NPC to patch things up instead, sort of like a buffer for the two (if that makes sense.) Also, that sounds like a good title for the game, Echoes of the Force. It is also a good idea for choosing one side over another will affect the influence you have on your companions, unlike in the second one where they followed you down the dark or the light side. That is if the influence part is kept in the may be third installation of the series.

[Cwhite93]

We should petition for Bioware to take on the full monty of the KOTOR III project, and kick Obsidian out on the curb

I kinda thought that Obisidian did a good job fixing alot game issues in the first one, like the new feat system, influence, and the (empty) signs on containers to already opened.

[Nightmare]

Bioware is mostly doing their own games now (Jade Empire, Mass Effect) instead of doing games from existing licences. Personally, I hope Obsidian is chosen to do the third game (if there is one) and they're given time to finish the game.

I can't quite remember, but there's nothing said in either game that (the LS endings) for Revan and Exile went off into unknown space to specifically fight the Sith...maybe there's another threat. While it would be nice to have another fight with the Sith (and have the game explore the whole Ying-Yang of the Jedi and the Sith), maybe they're off in unknown space to fight an early incursion by the Yuuzhan Vong from the NJO series or something. Though unlikely, it would interesting to see the story incorporate other aspects of the galaxy. Maybe, while the third protagonist is tracking down where Revan and Exile went, we run into the Chiss or something.

[Darth Shishio]

Bioware is mostly doing their own games now (Jade Empire, Mass Effect) instead of doing games from existing licences. Personally, I hope Obsidian is chosen to do the third game (if there is one) and they're given time to finish the game.

I can't quite remember, but there's nothing said in either game that (the LS endings) for Revan and Exile went off into unknown space to specifically fight the Sith...maybe there's another threat. While it would be nice to have another fight with the Sith (and have the game explore the whole Ying-Yang of the Jedi and the Sith), maybe they're off in unknown space to fight an early incursion by the Yuuzhan Vong from the NJO series or something

On the first one, yeah Bioware have done their own games. It doesn't mean they can't branch out and do KOTOR 3. I really am hoping to they do K3, coz ave played Mass Effect and the dialogue section is incredible, not mentioning the gameplay itself. So if KOTOR 3 is as good as this game, I say bring it on (unless its an MMO)

On the second one, we were clearly told by Kreia about the threat of the true Sith. I don't think they would bring other threats that you mentioned such as the Yuuzhan Vong and the Chiss, since they all have their place alrady in the star wars timeline. The whole K series has been about the bigger threat, which i can only think can be the true Sith.

[Nightmare]

What's interesting, actually, was that I was playing the first game again last night and discovered something I hadn't before. In one of Canderous' war stories, he tells you of discovering this "rocky growth" from within an asteroid on the outer rim that, when discovered, spat flaming projectiles at their ships and then ran away to past the galactic rim. I was almost shocked by this reference to the Vong...and then the characters in both games go beyond known space...

I do sincerely doubt they'll ever actually use the Vong (wrong period in time), but it was kind of cool to see it referenced.

Also, if anyone's read the Hand of Thrawn books by Timothy Zahn, its *SPOILER*

Spoiler

implied that one of the reasons the Emperor took over the galaxy was to bring order to fight a larger threat, which is later found out to be the Vong. Maybe Kreia senses this threat too?