APR question: Belm, Kundane, Scarlet N-T:

mattc · Post by **mattc** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:44 am

So I had always assumed that wielding, say, Belm, in my off hand gave me an extra attack with the off-hand weapon.

But I read something suggesting that you get an extra *main-hand* attack with these in your off-hand. That's a difference.

Can anyone enlighten me on the truth of this? Also, of Belm, Kundane, and the Scarlet Ninja-To, does anyone have favorites, and if so why? Are there any other APR boosters (besides hastes/oils of speed)?

Jordoo · Post by **Jordoo** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:59 am

I beleive its simply one extra attack per round overall wether your using one weapon or two and wether its main or off hand. For example If you are duel weilding and have 2.5 attacks per round normally and equip one of these weapons you'd have 3.5 attacks per round.

Scarlet Nija is the best of the trhee IMO but can only be used by a Monk or a Theif at high levels with UAI. Its +3 to hit the other 2 are +2 to hit and it does poison damage if you fail the save. Belm would be second because it does 1-8 damage and Kudane 1-6 damage. But you might as well weild both Belma and Kudane for the extra 2 attacks per round.

mattc · Post by **mattc** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:51 pm

I beleive its simply one extra attack per round overall wether your using one weapon or two and wether its main or off hand.

That sounds like it's *not* constrained to the enchanted weapon, but I'm not sure I was clear. Let me make my question clearer.

Suppose I am playing Korgan dual-wielding Stonebreaker/Frostreaver, at 3 APR. Then I switch to Stonebreaker/Kundane. Now my APR is 4.

Does this APR of 4 mean:
a) 3 attacks with Stonebreaker and 1 with Kundane, or
b) 2 attacks with Stonebreaker and 2 with Kundane?

Do you know which one happens in practice?

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:08 pm

I believe the bonus attacks are added to your main hand. You usually have one off hand attack per round when dual-wielding and two while under the effects of Improved Haste.

Stworca · Post by **Stworca** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:47 am

Crenshinibon wrote:I believe the bonus attacks are added to your main hand. You usually have one off hand attack per round when dual-wielding and two while under the effects of Improved Haste.

That is correct (at least im 95% sure)

mattc · Post by **mattc** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:59 pm

Well that is nice. Guess I'll be off-handing one of these most of the time now.

Thanks for the lore.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:38 am

When I play a blade, I usually go through the entire game using the Scarlet Ninja-To + 3 and Belm + 2. It's a very nice weapon combination for low attack speed characters.

Jordoo · Post by **Jordoo** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:19 am

Crenshinibon wrote:When I play a blade, I usually go through the entire game using the Scarlet Ninja-To + 3 and Belm + 2. It's a very nice weapon combination for low attack speed characters.

Isn't it restricted just to Monks? Wouldn't your Blade need to get UAI before he/she could weild Scarlet Ninja-To?

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:32 am

Yes, he/she would. You can almost hit the ToB level cap before advancing to Chapter Two however.

Jordoo · Post by **Jordoo** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:26 pm

Crenshinibon wrote:Yes, he/she would. You can almost hit the ToB level cap before advancing to Chapter Two however.

Solo?

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:13 pm

Yes. But even with one or two other party members, you should still hit the high level abilities.

Revi · Post by **Revi** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:24 pm

I can confirm that any additional attacks per round, be they from haste, an offhand weapon with a speed factor of 0, whirlwinds, or any other source, always go to the main-hand weapon. I believe it says in the AD&D 2nd ed. rules somewhere that no matter what, you can never do more than 1 attack per round with your offhand.

Bioware took this rule seriously and I believe they've made it impossible in the engine for offhands to ever do more than 1 attack. Tested it with a hacked ring that gives 5 attacks per round and then doubles this number. The result: 9 attacks are made with the mainhand, 1 with the offhand. This test was performed on a level 30 fighter.

prune1 · Post by **prune1** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:12 pm

I'm not sure about that max of 1 attack from the off-hand under ALL circumstances. In fact i'm almost certain that's wrong.

For example, the general consensus is that, when dual-wielding, improved haste doubles your off-hand attack as well, making it 2.

In fact that may well be the only time such happens, but still one counterexample is all that is needed, and so the engine can handle it, it would seem.

Lord-Sion · Post by **Lord-Sion** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:16 pm

The extra Attack goes to the mainhand, Which is a reason many people use belm and such in off hand, and a stronger higher enchanted weapon in the main hand. They are used to help out the main weapon. If they didn't have the extra Apr, They wouldn't be used as much.

If you take a rogue with ->

* In katana. And dual wield Celestial Fury + belm.

You will get ->

* Katana - 1apr
Dual wielding - 1apr
Using belm in off-hand - 1 apr.

Meaning you have 3apr as a rogue, Add improved haste and you will have 6.

prune1 · Post by **prune1** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:38 am

I'm not sure if the above is a respone to either myself or Revi. If so, the issue is not the APR you get but how it breaks down. You say you get 3 APR, yes, that is all very well and good, but more importantly you would get:

Belm in off-hand:
2 APR with Celestial Fury
1 APR with Belm

Belm in main-hand:
2 APR with Belm (assuming one * in scimitars, I suppose...though I don't know if you get an APR penalty for non-proficiency, perhaps just thac0/damage)
1 APR with Celestial Fury

With improved haste:

Belm in off-hand:
4 APR with Celestial Fury
2 APR with Belm

Belm in main-hand:
4 APR with Belm
2 APR with Celestial Fury

My point was that off-hands are not strictly limited to 1 APR by engine limitations.

thebannedone · Post by **thebannedone** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:31 pm

You do and do not get 2 attacks with your off-hand weapon in a round with improved haste on.

See improved haste cuts the time of a round in half, so basicly you do get 2 attacks per around with an off-hand weapon, but only cause you are going trough 2 rounds of attack series, if that makes any sense. If not under improved haste/whirlwind, you wont do more than 1 attack with off-hand.

Any attacks per round bonuses from either weapon go to the main weapon.