Loads of questions (might get spoiler replies)

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:50 pm

Hi guys.

I just started the game again, with a new character. I went from Dalish Elf Rouge to Human Noble Warrior. Currently at level 8, and enjoying myself. This leads to some questions:

1. I'm in dire need of a rouge. What the hell is up with only 3 companions? With the difficulty level being as it is, I need more manpower. Currently I can't open a single chest, which drives me up the wall!!! My current party consists of:

a. Alister. Good fighter, funny companion, and I understand he has a role to play later. I also need a good close-combat partner.

b. War Dog. Really good in a fight. Suddenly jumped from lever 3 to level 8 as soon as I kicked some butt in the tavern in Lothering(bug?) I can exchange the mut for Sten or Shale, as another good close combat fighter.

c. Morrigan... I'm male, she's there, and she kicks some serious heinie. At least at this level. One of the best characters in the game so far.

Sooo, to get a rouge to open all those pesky chests, who should I dump? The options in my mind is either Alister or the dog...?

2. I haven't visited the "campsite" yet. Can I recruit all the companions I free there?

3. Is this like the "good ole" CRPG's (ultima) where your actions determine the result? Or is it all a matter of levelling up?

Thanks in advance.

Aqua-chan · Post by **Aqua-chan** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:09 pm

In my opinion the dog is redundant since you yourself are a warrior, and you have Alistair in your party also. What's more, Alistair is centric to the main plot - even more so than Morrigan, so during your first real go it's recommended to keep him on hand. Morrigan is your only magic element, so you'll probably want to keep her on.

I think this game kind of unintentionally "assumes" you're going to be a rogue... The ones we're given aren't top-notch, and you'll be missing out on a lot of loot before you even find either of them.

I'm not sure how far you went in your first game, so I'll be vague for your benefit.

You have two rogues to choose from. The one you can get, Leliana, is the only one who actually is adept at picking locks from the start. The other you won't encounter until after having done some advancing in the main quest, and he has no lockpicking ability until you begin taking control of his level ups. As such Leliana in the Lothering tavern is your best bet.

The camp site functions as your Ebon Hawk or Normandy. It's your team hub, its where you can always find your companions for dialogs and gift-giving, and is generally a good place to go heal and gear up. Anyone not in your current party that you have recruited stays there presumably. There's nobody to free, per say, but you can get some character-specific quests by visiting the camp site. You should also only give gifts while camped out -- otherwise characters may not talk about "special gifts" that are important to them as they should.

Your choices do have an impact on the game. Not all the decisions you make directly affect your final outcome of the game, but nearly all of them affect A) How much your squad members approve or disapprove of you, and B) some "epilogue"-like story elements.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:11 pm

Aqua-chan wrote: The ones we're given aren't top-notch, and you'll be missing out on a lot of loot before you even find either of them.

Leliana is actually rather well-built for an in-game character, but the game sort of throws you a "curve" by starting her off with a sword. In fact her attribute and talent "tree" is about as well selected as Alisters (who is the proverbial meat-shield). Quite simply - she is an Archer.

Speaking of Archers, what are the differences in bows vs. crossbows with respect to Talents?

I'd estimate somewhere around 20-25 chests are missed by not having a Rogue as the main character until the time you can get Leliana. I'd imagine that most of the stuff is junk, but it can still add-up to some additional coin from sales.

A few other things to note with Leliana:

She starts at level 7. (..at level 8 she not only gets a Talent, but also a Skill.)
She starts with *2* of the 4 Lockpicking Talents.
She already has enough Cunning attribute to select the 3rd Lockpicking Talent, and coincidentally level 8 is the Rogue level requirement for the 3rd Lockpicking Talent. (..note that the final one requires Rogue level 12.)
..and finally
You can swap out characters at ANY TIME. (edit: *NOT* ..it's limited.)

Basically what all of the above means is that you likely only need to level her up on level and grab the 3rd Lockpicking Talent - thus allowing you the option to drop her from the party until needed to open a lock (..unless you want to build her up to Rogue level 12 for the final Lockpicking Talent). If you keep her, well then you have a pretty good archer that you can improve on as you see fit.

IMO Morrigan by contrast is one of the *worst* built characters by virtue of her haphazard Spell selection, and more Willpower than she ever needs, with not enough Magic. She is still useful and moderately powerful, but she could have been "built" a LOT better.

Aqua-chan · Post by **Aqua-chan** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:25 pm

Scottg wrote:Leliana is actually rather well-built for an in-game character, but the game sort of throws you a "curve" by starting her off with a sword. In fact her attribute and talent "tree" is about as well selected as Alisters (who is the proverbial meat-shield). Quite simply - she is an Archer.

I will give you that she's an archer through and though. However, after having played both a melee and archer rogue, this run through with my mage has led me to a lot of frustration. It's my experience that Leliana still misses an abundant number of traps and gets stuck on many more locks than my player character did. No where near the amount as, say, the other rogue -- whom I am using now, because I find his assassin talents far more useful than bard abilities.

Scottg wrote: Speaking of Archers, what are the differences in bows vs. crossbows with respect to Talents?

To my knowledge, none. They're considered the same thing and fall under the same tree.

Scottg wrote: You can swap out characters at ANY TIME.

Um... no? Perhaps it's a platform thing, but on the 360 you can only swap out in "settled" areas like cities and the Dalish camp. Either way if you don't have a rogue who can open those chests, you're going to be doing some backtracking.

Scottg wrote:
IMO Morrigan by contrast is one of the *worst* built characters by virtue of her haphazard Spell selection, and more Willpower than she ever needs, with not enough Magic. She is still useful and moderately powerful, but she could have been "built" a LOT better.

But you get Morrigan early enough that you can pretty much reshape her. By the end of my last game she still had all Primal spells in addition to the strange assortment they set her up with. I find her more flexible than her Spirit Healer counterpart, who never seems to have enough will or magic to get those higher level spells.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:14 pm

Aqua-chan wrote:I will give you that she's an archer through and though. However, after having played both a melee and archer rogue, this run through with my mage has led me to a lot of frustration. It's my experience that Leliana still misses an abundant number of traps and gets stuck on many more locks than my player character did. No where near the amount as, say, the other rogue -- whom I am using now, because I find his assassin talents far more useful than bard abilities.

To my knowledge, none. They're considered the same thing and fall under the same tree.

Um... no? Perhaps it's a platform thing, but on the 360 you can only swap out in "settled" areas like cities and the Dalish camp. Either way if you don't have a rogue who can open those chests, you're going to be doing some backtracking.

But you get Morrigan early enough that you can pretty much reshape her. By the end of my last game she still had all Primal spells in addition to the strange assortment they set her up with. I find her more flexible than her Spirit Healer counterpart, who never seems to have enough will or magic to get those higher level spells.

Ah, didn't know about limitation on party switching..

You find the Assassin class better suited to your Mage than the Bard/Archer?

This makes me wonder how you are playing the game. Some combo that seems to work really well? :mischief: If so, please share!

As far as Lelianna missing traps contrasted with Morrigan being re-shaped, the same *should* hold true for Lelianna as well, correct? (..though that's IF you want and *can* keep her.) The Bard as a general class isn't that great, but Song of Valor works well with Mages AND the other Bard specific Talents are far less useful for an Archer - so you can happily choose other talents that are more useful. (..and presumably the Ranger specialty will work for her at level 12.)

I've not played with a cross-bow, the stats looked better in general when I looked at "base" crossbows and bows, so it must be down to attacks vs. time, with the bow having an advantage. (..though in that same town with Lelianna I think I remember a crossbow with some sort of "rapid reload" feature which presumably compensates.)

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:34 am

Thank you. You just saved me a lot of backtracking, and I think the dog is gone.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:51 am

Okay, here's another one: I'm still messing about in Lothering, and can't seem to finish my final quest. I've created the potions for Elder Miriam, but when I want to deliver them, I can't find the old bat anywhere. Is this a bug, or is this a sidequest and I've missed a clue?

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:07 am

Moonbiter wrote:Okay, here's another one: I'm still messing about in Lothering, and can't seem to finish my final quest. I've created the potions for Elder Miriam, but when I want to deliver them, I can't find the old bat anywhere. Is this a bug, or is this a sidequest and I've missed a clue?

She should be somewhere near the well, if I recall correctly. That's over the bridge and to the left, if the tavern is to your right.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:21 am

Thanks Fable. I figured it out in the end. For some reason she doesn't show up on the map like the other quest characters, so it took a while to find her. Might have passed her 3-4 times looking in the wrong direction.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:45 pm

As an update..

I'm finding that Leliana *is* excellent as a rouge considering here level, and when "shaped". And it's not really like she is being "re-shaped". The one skill that I"d say is an outright waste is her sole skill in "Poison-Making". Alister is better off with this skill "tree" (..after completing the Combat Training tree). For Leliana the build is like this:

Level 8: Skill - Trap-Making, Talent - Mechanical Expertise
Level 9: Talent - Stealth
Level 10: Skill - Improved Trap-Making, Talent - Stealthy Item Use
Level 11: Talent - Combat Stealth
Level 12: Skill - Expert Trap-Making, Talent - Device Mastery
Level 13: Talent - Master Stealth
Level 14: Skill - Master Trap-Making, Melee Archer.
From there on out it should be a combination of Archer & Ranger Talents and finishing up on the "Stealing" skills and progressing to the "Survival" skills.

The ability to detect and disarm traps is almost totally dependent on the "Trap-Making" skill sets. The "Stealth" skills aid in both disarming and setting these traps, as well as combat in general (at higher levels).

The one thing I'd caution on for Lelian is to NOT get her "approval" rating up to high if you plan on using Morrigan consistently.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:08 pm

Oooookay, now I'm in Redcliff Castle, and I have the distinct impression that I should not be here yet. I am getting my butt kicked royally by a Revenant in the courtyard, and no matter what I do I can't seem to hurt it. the only reaon why I went to Redcliff in the first place is because Alisteir kept nagging about it.

Should I go walkabout and visit some other places to gain experience before I storm the castle, and will that affect the game in any way? Everyone seems to tell me that time is short, but it doesn't really seem to matter...

Aqua-chan · Post by **Aqua-chan** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:13 pm

In all truths, you should probably go to Denerim first and do some of the many sidequests there. That way you can build up your team a bit for the Revenant.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:25 am

I always go to Denerim as well, before tackling the mainquests.

About Leliana: Ranger is a terrible spec, IMO: the summons virtually add nothing to your party. I found that Assassin, even if only for the +2 DEX & +2.5% crit is more worth it. Moreover, it better fits with her background.

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:08 am

Moonbiter wrote:Oooookay, now I'm in Redcliff Castle, and I have the distinct impression that I should not be here yet. I am getting my butt kicked royally by a Revenant in the courtyard, and no matter what I do I can't seem to hurt it. the only reaon why I went to Redcliff in the first place is because Alisteir kept nagging about it.

I went to Redcliffe first too, and the Revenant is awfully difficult, but there's a trick to this fight.

SPOILER BELOW

Spoiler

If you can use a mage/archer to take out the skeleton archers before engaging the revenant, do so, as they can do quite a bit of damage but are pretty weak. Next, use stealth (or just run!) to the gate, pull the lever, and let the soldier's into the castle. They'll engage the Revenant and make the fight much, much easier, as their commander is quite powerful.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:35 pm

..a 3rd for Denerim as well. (..except the last part of the "abandoned building".)

ALSO, most of Breclan Forest - especially once your Denerim quests overlap.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:46 pm

GawainBS wrote: About Leliana: Ranger is a terrible spec, IMO: the summons virtually add nothing to your party. I found that Assassin, even if only for the +2 DEX & +2.5% crit is more worth it. Moreover, it better fits with her background.

Thanks for the "heads-up" on that.. the "Ranger" class *seemed* appropriate, but I didn't realize the summons were that poor. (I'll be at level 12 shortly for her, and the overall progression I posted seems to be working rather well.)

I will say though that *just* from the basis of basic offensive prowess, that Archer is the *worst* build. But in the case of Leliana here overall utility is excellent and I expect will become a LOT better with traps-setting (..and crafting).

I'm leaning toward Morrigan as a Shape Shifter/Arcane Warrior for some of the tougher opponent battles that are highly resistant to magic. Any thoughts?

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:17 pm

Scottg wrote: I'm leaning toward Morrigan as a Shape Shifter/Arcane Warrior for some of the tougher opponent battles that are highly resistant to magic. Any thoughts?

If you have her take the Spirit Healer spec, it frees up a slot so you don't need to take Wynne. Healing magic is quite useful, since then you don't have to spam health potions in tough battles...

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:37 pm

For strength oriented rogues, Ranger is a very strong choice for a second class. The animals' level is three below your own. I loaded up my final save and played around with the console to make a twenty five ranger and tried the animals out. The wolf and the spider had about four hundred health while the bear had six hundred. The spider however did about fifty or so damage with the spit ability doing around eighteen damage per second, which is nothing to scoff at. Don't forget that these animals can be re-sumoned when killed and have some valuble abilities such as Howl (area of effect stun) or web (single target stun). Essentially, they do have the same strength as another party member, only with less abilities.

Speaking of Wynne, I believe that she, specialized as an Arcane Warrior is the best NPC available. Not only can she cast damaging spells, but she can be a healer AND a near invulnerable tank (and a strong auto-attacker).

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:07 am

Nightmare wrote:If you have her take the Spirit Healer spec, it frees up a slot so you don't need to take Wynne. Healing magic is quite useful, since then you don't have to spam health potions in tough battles...

I could "double-up" ..certainly would be powerful to have 2 with the 4th spell active. (..my character is going the healer/blood-mage route :speech: .) And I'm quite enjoying the way the spell-build has progressed so far - weak early, but getting much more powerful. That Runic paralysis combo with Death Cloud is pretty nice. :mischief: (..and I have what I hope will be a real nasty single opponent spell combo I'm working towards now.)

As for Morrigan.. I still think I prefer the idea of a nearly invulnerable vampiric swarm. It's also good to hear that the Ranger's summons have worth. I think I'll go Ranger for her and next time through make an assassin character for myself.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:00 am

Archery becomes a lot more viable if you install the Dexterity hotfix.