Not to piss on anyone's picnic but.....

[tx3000]

Ok before anyone harps on me about this topic and all the fan boys come running in read a few lines and decide to flame me like that usually happens, please read the whole thing because I have presented very structured opinionated argument that has extremely solid and backed up facts to them


Ok here goes:
Dragon Age Origins is not a game and nor is it an RPG.
The proper terminology for DAO is this:
Dragon Age Origins is nothing but a Cinematic Tactical Adventure.


DA:O does not have even no where near enough elements in it, to be classified as an RPG and the Dialog way over powers and over shadows any actual real playability in it. Sure you are moving a couple of characters around and sure you put some equipment on, and do a couple of battles, but so what all 3 of those elements don’t last as long as they give off the illusion of having.


DIALOG:
People say this is Bioware it's supposed to have dialog and lots of talking and you bought the wrong thing, or my favorite line of all when it comes to this......THIS ISN'T FOR YOU......BLAH, BLAH BLAH...yeah, yeah, yeah,..

None of that has anything to do with what I am about to say. All those types of comments are from people who cannot stand anyone having anything negative or bad about something they love...they act like I insulted their wife or kids or someone very close to them in their family..

Anyway. The dialog choices in DA:O are not only inappropriately placed, the dialog is not evenly spread out, in most cases I have found has completely unrelated dialog to the original line of conversation, and then drags on for an un-needed amount of time.

For example, using a human noble for this example, you are asked to go get your brother, and on your way to go get your brother, you are stopped and now being told you have to go get your dog out of the kitchen, Ok that is fine. However, the dialog changes from going to get your dog out of the kitchen, into the person asking about Grey Wardens that goes on for 3 min....:speech:

Ok then after the 3 min or more of dialog regarding Grey Wardens you get the option of I NEED TO GET MY BROTHER FIRST... And if you select that You get told NO. And to top that all off, you cannot get your brother UNLESS you get your dog out of the kitchen...

Ok so here is what is wrong with that whole situation:
a. The conversation somehow switches from you getting your dog to some idiot rambling on about grey wardens
b. At the end of all that crap, you get presented with an option you cannot actually execute
c. people say this is supposed to immerse you into it by having an entire conversation with someone, ok that is fine but anyone knows what happens when someone starts talking to someone in real life on and on and on.
d. lastly normal conversation does not change subject matter in the middle of it.. You wouldn't be talking to someone about pancakes then all of sudden say hey I heard ketchup makes a good moisturizer, but my neighbor likes the light on while reading popcorn with tuna skateboards would you?

But that is exactly how the dialog is in DAO it starts jumping around from subject to subject in a completely random fashion that has nothing to do with the original subject at hand. Ok so why is that not ok in real life, but perfectly accpetable in DAO while at the same time, people keep saying that DAO is supposed to be like real life conversations?

Ok so talking about your dog and then somehow switching to grey wardens....bad...bad..bad... Keep the Grey Warden Dialog, but have it come up somewhere else, not in a conversation completely unrelated to the task at hand.

Being presented with a dialog option you cannot execute...BAD...BAD...BAD...If you cannot execute an option freely, doesn't need to be in there...This is why I said this is not an RPG...Every choice like that is pointless and should have never been put in there...You do not present people with choices they cannot ever execute.

To top it all off, I should be able to get my brother without having to get my dog out of the kitchen, but since you cannot do that, then the whole dialog of being told to get your dog out of the kitchen....BAD...BAD...BAD....

If you have no choice in the matter regardless of what you choose, and has unrelated dialog in it then this is all that needs to happen when you get the cinematic to go get your dog

Begin Cinematic:
My mother sent me to tell you that you need to get the dog out of the kitchen, you have no choice, this must be done before anything else and this is not up for discussion... lets go
End Cinematic

Anyway moving on:
Now we go to the Kitchen where the Kitchen maid wants you to get your dog out of the larder, ok fine but then how do you go from being asked to getting your dog out of the larder to the Kitchen maid yelling at the servants because they pissed her off, and having to listen to that for 5 min...:speech:

Again changing the dialog to something completely unrelated is retarded, and to make matters worse you just got done sitting through 5 min of dialog before that, which had the same exact thing involved, useless dialog, no free choices, having to sit through 5 min of un-related crap.

____________________________________________________________________

OK HERE IS A DIFFERENT SITUATION THAT HAS THE SAME EXACT TYPE OF OUTCOME
Using the Dwarf Origin I'll shows how all free choices have been cut out.

Once near or at the end of the Dwarf origin Story, you are asked if you would like to become a Grey Warden or not... Ok this right here has a yes or no answer to it...So therefore I should be able to select what I want and have it stick...Ok so lets see what happens.....

If you cannot choose NO and actually execute that decision, then that dialog option = Total Fail........ being presented with a yes or no option then being told screw you anyway and Not being able to execute free will choice stips RPG elements out of Dragon Age Origins. You should be able to finish the game without having to become a grey Warden and this is what i am talking about

Now I know Grey Wardens are the story and all that BLAH BLAH BLAH, but Even though Grey wardens are the story you should still be able to finish the game without having to become one and heer is why I say that:

Going to the end of the game for a second, and how Grey Wardens are the whole story line...Blah Blah Blah

Being a grey warden or not is not relevant when it comes to the ending boss fight. A grey warden is needed to kill the arch demon, so all that is needed to kill the demon, is for a grey warden to be present.

So you should be able to ride along with the Grey wardens without actually becoming one, just like the king did, and all that's needed is for a grey warden to be present then that proves what I said about how if you are being presented the option of becoming one or not, then you should be able to execute those options and have them stick.

That in turn shows how all that useless and un-needed dialog and crap could have been removed and an actual RPG could have been made out of this. because the end game has given room for that. btu instead they flooded and over powered DAO with useles gabbing that has taken away any ture RPG and game play elements.

And since you have no free choice in DAO there is nothing you can do during the adventure to allow change in the outcome of anything you do, in teh end you still have to be a grey warden and kill the demon.

At least by allowing to choose whther or not you would like to become a grey warden you would have been actually able to actually change the outcome in the end. But instead you are stuck with do what we tell you to do and if you don't like it...too bad..


In closing people have said too much dialog is a matter of opinion, there is a whole community who like a massive amount of dialog, well I beg to differ that because you can like something and still have ti be too much

For example
I can say I like 3 LBs of butter with every meal for a total of 9lbs a day, and there is a whole community of us who like 3 lbs of butter every meal, we can use that same arument that anyone trying to tell us 9 lbs is too much but since we like that much butter then saying it's too much is only an opinion.

But then people try to say it's not the same thing, but it is the same thing, you cannot make exceptions to something to try and make your side of the argument look right. If you want to say that too much butter is a health hazard I can say teh same thing about sitting in front of your computer screen for as long as people do running through DAO is also a health hazard it even says so right in the manual of any game, adventure or anything computer wise, take a 15 - 20 min break every hour.

So there is my structured opinion argument with backed up facts..

Enjoy

[Xandax]

You're welcome to your opinion, however ..... when you start your post with

Ok before anyone harps on me about this topic and all the fan boys coem running in read a few lines and decide to flame me like that uslaly happens

Then you can't really expect anybody to take you at all serious or engage you in meaningful discussion - because you've clearly shown you're not interested in such - but just want to say your piece and anybody disagreeing with you are already labelled.
A sentiment you repeat a couple of times as a sort of "preemptive strike" against those who disagrees with you.

So, sorry - but I'll use the cliche here, because given your stated purpose that's all it in my opinion warrent:
Nobody is forcing you to play, and not every game caters to every person.

As for how the game is not a RPG, well, I see no "facts" to back up your "structued opinion".

[tx3000]

Nobody is forcing you to play, and not every game caters to every person.

and no one is forcing you to read this either.

As for how the game is not a RPG, well, I see no "facts" to back up your "structued opinion

Of course you are going to say that, but regardless of what you said or anyone wants to say, the fact is that RPG's have always been about choices and the consequences of those choices.

DA:O strips out any free choices so there are no choices to make, and the outcome has already been set up for you. You have to contrl the outcome and be allowed to change it in an RPG, since DAO doesn't have that. You have no RPG elements, therefore it's not an RPG.

It really is not that hard of a concept to grasp.

[Crenshinibon]

The origin story is essentially the pre-game. It's a prologue, so of course it leads you to where you need to go. If you say "no" to being a Grey Warden, your story essentially ends then and there. If you say "yes" and then try to escape, you'd get killed, as was shown in the ritual. They very well could have just started the game after the origin story, but I think that it adds some flavor to your character.

I don't see you making references to anything after the origins, which is where most of the choices are. The developers admitted that the origin would be linear, yes, but it's definately something more that having your prologue typed out on the "Background" section of the character page.

After the prologue (which ends after Lothering in my opinion), you do see the game reacting to your choices.

[Lady Dragonfly]

Nobody is forcing you to play, and not every game caters to every person.

Please remember that next time you yourself decide to critisize a game.

-------------

I haven't finished the game yet but my opinion is that DA is not a very good RPG. If you liked NWN2, chances are you will love DA.

Bad stuff:
DA is actually a console-oriented MMO-style action RPG/interactive movie with boring, annoying, repetitive filler combat, nonsensical cliched plot, poor, outdated area design, pseudo-mature "new... ", low quality music score, numbered codex with lore not worth bothering with etc. etc;

Good stuff:

NPC models, animation, voice-over, dialogues (writing), some quests... eh... that's about it?

[Ethelle]

It really is not that hard of a concept to grasp.

Indeed, it isn't, and I daresay everyone gets your point after reading this. I agree with you. The dialogues are odd at times, and the freedom of choice is very limited, which is disappointing since we were told this was going to be "the next Baldur's Gate". I had expected more freedom, but honestly... how many RPGs offer true freedom of choice? Baldur's Gate doesn't really, although you could choose at what times you completed what quests. Only The Elder Scrolls comes to mind, and even there the choices are limited. What would you call Icewind Dale, I wonder? Would you exclude that from the RPG genre as well?

So, based on your arguments you want to exclude Dragon Age from the definition of RPG. That's fine. Others might sport different definitions of what 'RPG' means exactly, though. I won't try to explain what different things you can base the definition of an RPG on, though, since your post clearly states that you do not wish to be argued with. It is, however, completely beyond me why anyone would post something on a forum, if he was not prepared to discuss it, and merely wished to be hailed for his originality and cleverness.

[tx3000]

The origin story is essentially the pre-game. It's a prologue, so of course it leads you to where you need to go. If you say "no" to being a Grey Warden, your story essentially ends then and there.

Maybe I didn't make my point clear enough. IT DOES NOT NEED TO END THERE AND NOR DOES IT NEED TO.
The ending of the game proves this it only ends there because they did a sloppy job putting this together. If you remove all the useless dialog, it frees up the ability to add in a multiple/alternate path for actual freedom and thus actually allow for an RPG.

Granted I fully understand that was not BioWares intent and I know this is not how the game is, but that is besides the point, the point is that BioWare should concentrate on making more game less talk, or keep the gabbing, and even it out by placing all the gabbing in the apropriate place, and evening it out. Turning players off by boring players with thsi crap is not good customer service, a gpd business wants as many people as they can get, by making the simple rule is they would rather not lose 1 customer because losing a customer = loss of money regardless of how little that is. That is just how the business world works.

I don't see you making references to anything after the origins, which is where most of the choices are. The developers admitted that the origin would be linear, yes, but it's definitely something more that having your prologue typed out on the "Background" section of the character page.

After the prologue (which ends after Lothering in my opinion), you do see the game reacting to your choices.

Again you are under the illusion that DAO reacts to these dead end dialog options you are being presented with that only have one outcome regardless of any of the 5 options you select as well as any of the other options that branch off of those.

Here is a proven test
Save the game before a conversation, then Go through every dialog option in this game in a conversation by reloading your save every time until you get through all of them.

Even though there are 3-8 min worth of dialog along with multiple branches off those dialogs, all the conversations that take place in DAO all arrive at one outcome only, nothing you choose changes the closing dialog for that conversation.

Let me lay it out for you in a conversation so you can actually see that there are no choices and it is not relevant what branch you choose in a dialog

________________________________________
Conversation 1:
You wind up in a conversation that has choice A and B

G = I have to go now or some other ending dialog
H = the actual outcome

A has 2 branches C and D
And B has 2 branches E and F

And C has 1 branch G
And D has brings you to H

E has 1 branch that brings you to G
F has 1 Branch that brings you to H

________________________________________
CONVERSATION 2:
changing the letters to numbers

You wind up in a conversation that has choice 1 and 2

7 = I have to go now or some other ending dialog
8 = the actual outcome

1 has 2 branches 3 and 4
2 has 2 branches 5 and 6

3 has 1 branch 7
4 has brings you to 8

E has 1 branch that brings you to 7
F has 1 Branch that brings you to 8

__________________________________

OK now in both cases there was only 1 outcome regardless of what dialog choice or branch you choose In conversation 1 you wind up with H

In conversation 2 you can only arrive at 8

Now lets put these 2 together for you to see the big picture:
Conversation 1 and 2 only have 1 outcome there are no choices in outcome.


Now lets put this into perspective

Whether or not conversation 1 and 2 are related or not, and regardless if you got conversation 1 before 2 or 2 before one the order is not relevent the outcome is going to exactly the same in both cases and because it has a pre-scripted nothing in conversation 1 is going to affect what happens in conversation 2 and conversation 2 will not change the outcome of conversation 1.

Both conversations only have one outcome so they do not check to see what outcome has been made for what conversation further down the line into DAO

The only way the game can react to the choices you make is if the dialog in the game had mutiple outcomes which it does not.

So that just killed your statement of the game reacts to your dialog choices So as you can clearly see it is impossible for the game to react to any dialog you make because the dialog doesn't give that flexability.

Everything you do is set in stone and the dialog you choose does not affect the outcome later on in the game. I just graphed that out

[Xandax]

<snip>
Of course you are going to say that, but regardless of what you said or anyone wants to say, the fact is that RPG's have always been about choices and the consequences of those choices.

DA:O strips out any free choices so there are no choices to make, and the outcome has already been set up for you. You have to contrl the outcome and be allowed to change it in an RPG, since DAO doesn't have that. You have no RPG elements, therefore it's not an RPG.

It really is not that hard of a concept to grasp.

See - this is where the "don't want to discuss" comes into play and you've clearly labelled everybody disagreeing with you before hand - because, indeed it is a hard concept to grasp.

I don't know what you consider RPGs, but in very few cRPGs (if any) are in fact able to "control the outcome", because .... well, the game is scripted, written and designed to follow the story.
You'll not be able to "control the outcome" until true AI gets implemented (or plays a PnP game).
All the "choices" in computer games exists only to facilitate the story and move it forward.

Some of my favorite cRPGs of all time are Fallout 1+2 and Baldur's Gate 1+2 and well, there are the same type of choices in DA:O as there are in such cRPGs. In BG you had to go after Saravok, and BG it was Irenicus, in Fallout it was The Master and in FO2 it was the Enclave.
Then people can look towards games like Oblivion and Morrowind, but if you want to play the story - it brings you along a path as well. Then there are games as Planescape - but well, story driven choices. DA:O might not be a RPG to you, but well - it is to most everybody else who like this genre.

It sounds much more to me like you just dislike the game and feels like ranting about it, and everybody else are just "fanboys".

[tx3000]

See - this is where the "don't want to discuss" comes into play and you've clearly labelled everybody disagreeing with you before hand - because, indeed it is a hard concept to grasp.

Everything I stated was fact and was backed up with fact.

I don't know what you consider RPGs, but in very few cRPGs (if any) are in fact able to "control the outcome", because .... well, the game is scripted, written and designed to follow the story.
You'll not be able to "control the outcome" until true AI gets implemented (or plays a PnP game).
All the "choices" in computer games exists only to facilitate the story and move it forward.

You fail to grasp that DAO and other games that actually give you choice in the script and actually allow you to execute those script options wioth different outcomes are what separates DAO from actual games.

It sounds much more to me like you just dislike the game and feels like ranting about it, and everybody else are just "fanboys".

Well 1st of all DAo is not a game so please stop calling it that call it what it really is a Cinematic tactical adventure

and secondly, I don't mind DAO at all it's fine for how it's put together, but all the potential for any real true game play has been flushed down the toilet by overshadowing the actualy playability factor with useless gabbing and un-needed and inapropriately placed dialog.

I'm saying that BioWare could have created an actual descent RPG out of this while keeping it the same story driven adventure, a story driven adventure doesn't need to be put together the way they have it set up.

[Kipi]

You fail to grasp that DAO and other games that actually give you choice in the script and actually allow you to execute those script options wioth different outcomes are what separates DAO from actual games.

Your actions do affect the gameworld. One example is Redcliffe. Depending on your actions and decisions there, the town either survives or gets destroyed.
As I'm playing the game first time through, and haven't started over since I finished the origin -part, I can't confirm for sure, but I believe the following conversations does affect your world:

• The bandits when you enter Lothering the very first time. You can threathen them to give you money, leave them be or kill them.
• The dwarven merchant at your camp. You can tell them to leave, or you can let them stay
• You can decide which one you side between Dalish elves and the Werewolves

Well 1st of all DAo is not a game so please stop calling it that call it what it really is a Cinematic tactical adventure

Tactical adventure -> game
Interactive movie it's not, as it's far too interactive for being such. And can't think anything better than term "game" that fits to DA:O. Can you?

About the freedom of choice:
You say they should have made the possibility not to join Gray Wardens? That would nearly double the size of game, and double the effort put on the game. Also, if you were able to determine whether join or not to join the Wardens, why shouldn't you have the possibility to ignore the orders to ensure that the fire was lighted, and join the battle with the king and Duncan instead? And what about the possibility join darkspawns instead, or join the traitor (sorry, can't remember the name, the one who betrayed king and retreated from the battle). How about the possibility to ignore the whole blight problem and just stay on city/town of your choice?

The freedom of choice is good thing, but only to some extent. If developers must take account every possibility the player may or may not want to do, the games wouldn't ever be ready. The line must be drawn somewhere, and because the developers wanted to tell certain story in form of game, they must restrict what players can do, can not do and must do.

Oh, and by the way, can you tell us name of RPG game which would fit in your idea of RPG?

[Ethelle]

Oh, and by the way, can you tell us name of RPG game which would fit in your idea of RPG?

I second that question, since I posed a similar one which was sadly ignored.
I would very much like to know what game does deserve the title 'RPG' in this definition. As far as I see it, only the tabletop D&D game can approach that goal, and then only when you are both player and DM at the same time.

[Aqua-chan]

Everything I stated was fact and was backed up with fact.

No, everything I have seen in your replies was backed up with opinion. There is no "fact" to this subject. It's all opinion, on both sides.

We encourage meaningful discussion about games and the highs and lows of each. The key phrase in there being "meaningful discussion". Regardless of whatever experiences you may have had on other forums, here you don't get a "I can say whatever I wish and all who disagree are just rabid fanboys" card. You started this thread, and now people are replying to it with different points of view. That's how it works.

It seems to me as though you have latched onto the fact that you don't like all the talking in the Origin stories, and thus now it's not an RPG because you don't have the option to set the in-game world on fire. Get in line with the Mass Effect fans who've had the same complaint for years.

The definition of RPG has changed greatly over the development of the industry. Frankly, according to some game companies, a tattered semi-plot and some characters talking qualifies as an RPG these days. But RPG, even in its earliest years, never equated to this suggestion that the character's behavior should utterly reshape the in-game world. Some of the best RPGs of the day all had plotlines that were set in stone, and while the character had options about how to do quests leading to that point, rarely did it change the final outcome. It's about story, not about conclusion.

[tx3000]

Your actions do affect the game world.

Sorry this is not true. The ending story is the over all issue, and since that cannot be changed then that you cannot use middle things to try and support your claim.

The only way anything can be affected, is if what you do actually allows you to alter and change the outcome of what happens in the end.

2 Questions:
1) Does any of what is said during the adventure, allow you to not become a Grey Warden?
2) Does any of this allow you to finish the game without being a Grey Warden?

If the answer is no to either, then that backs up what I said you have no choices and nothing you do changes anything.

The city is going to be destroyed regardless of what you do, and that is to prevent you being able to go back. Is all, the dialog has nothing to do with that happening.

I don't think I need to tell people that this is how you would need to affect the world.
Not becoming or becoming a Grey Warden, and or not being allowed to finishing the adventure with or without being a grey warden would be the direct result of choices that you are presented and then actually allowed to be executed, would back up a claim of anyone trying to say what you do in DA:O changes the world.

These 2 things would affect every single dialog and dialog branch because all the dialog would be completely different depending on which direction you chose to do, there would also be dialog options that you most likely wouldn't even see due to the path being chosen. On top of that you may not even wind up being even to meet some people on one path than another... You get the idea

And as I said, since those things cannot be changed, I just proved with facts that nothing changes regardless of what you do.

As for this:

You say they should have made the possibility not to join Gray Wardens? That would nearly double the size of game, and double the effort put on the game.

Sorry but you are only looking at it from an already put together point of view. In reality the exact same amount of effort would have gone into it probably less, because instead of making it they way they have now, it would have been made with the actual playability. As for making it twice as big the way it's set up now is also a false assumption. I can count at least from the beginning of this adventure to at least outside the camp for the joining at least 100, un-needed, wasted, & dead end dialog. and that is just near the beginning.

So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that removing all of that useless, un-needed, dead end crap you have freed up all that space which can be replaced with real actual game play and choices which would be less than the room used for all the original useless, un-needed, dead end crap
So trying to say that this would make the this bigger, sorry doesn't work like that.


As for this:

Tactical adventure -> game
Interactive movie it's not, as it's far too interactive for being such.

The only real true interactivity DA:O has, is in the dialog, nothing else.

[hedgewizard]

You cannot fully decide your role in a computer RPG. The number of decisions that a player may want to make cannot possibly be accounted for. Mayhap you have played a tabletop RPG, perhaps Dungeons & Dragons; that is possible there. But a computer RPG should not be trodden upon for not giving the player absolute choice in the outcome of events, that is unrealistic.

[Kipi]

Sorry this is not true. The ending story is the over all issue, and since that cannot be changed then that you cannot use middle things to try and support your claim.

The only way anything can affect what you do, is if what you do actually allows you to alter and change the outcome of what happens in the end.

Okay, we may have different idea what "affecting gameworld" means. For me, the ending of the story is only part of that. In my opinion, you affect the world in game if your decisions destroys towns or saves them. That's affecting the game world. Also, you are affecting the game world if by certain actions and/or dialogue options you close certain methods of completing things. Your action -> something comes possible or isn't possible anymore = affecting the game world.

But you can disagree as much as you want. as it's purely personal opinion.

2 Questions:
1) Does any of what is said during the adventure, allow you to not become a Grey Warden?
2) Does any of this allow you to finish the game wihtout being a Grey Warden?
If the answer is no to either, then that backs up what i said you have no choices and nothing you do changes anything.

Answer to both of the is no. But, as in 99% of games, the frames of the story is formed by developers, and you can only work inside those frames. DA:O is about Grey Wardens who survived the battle, and try to form a army against darkspawns. If you didn't join the Wardens, the story wouldn't exists anymore.

[/QUOTE]
The only real true interactivity DA:O has, is in the dialog, nothing else.[/QUOTE]
So combat, character development, equipment management, tactical planning, exploring and puzzle solving don't belong interactivity?
I think that just removed most of the games from the category.


Oh, and I'm still waiting for the answer to my question

[EvilEdwin]

I get the impression that you've played DA:O for a few hours and got bored of all the talking and scene setting, when you simply just wanted to get started with the hacking and the slashing.

I would imagine that many games today take a while to get going because of the heavy story elements they employ. I have a friend who skips any dialogue sequences in any games so he can get straight to the "action". How he has any idea what's going on I have no idea. It's a bit like fast forwarding through any chatty bits in a film.

Again, like the others, I ask what would you class as an rpg, since any rpg I can think of provides little free will with regards to choices. Games just arn't that sophisticated and I doubt they will be in my life time.

I can't think of a single video rpg that provides what you seem to be seeking. At the basic level rpg's are about story immersion and character development (for me anyway), even if on the surface they're about getting from A to B, start to finish, humble beginnings to world saver. Whatever the story happens to be. Of course how you get there is up to you. Good or evil, saviour or sinner, whichever.

You refer to DA:O as a "cinematic tactical adventure" (which incidently is the number one search if you Google it). Well that just seems like a phrase you've pulled out of thin air, which is fine, but at least provide a definition of what it means, because I really don't get it. DA:O is a game, pure and simple.

All I can take from this, is that you don't like DA:O so you want to have a rant about it. That's fine. But you know already that you're not going to find much support for that view, hence your disclaimer at the beginning. Trying to cover yourself and then attacking anyone who has a differing view by calling them "fanboys" doesn't exactly give you credibility, as Xandax said previously.

[EvilEdwin]

2 Questions:
1) Does any of what is said during the adventure, allow you to not become a Grey Warden?
2) Does any of this allow you to finish the game wihtout being a Grey Warden?

I don't get why you're so hung up on the Grey Warden issue.

The whole DA:O story is about the Grey Wardens. About their fight with the Darkspawn, the sacrifices they make and the difficult task they have. It's at the very centre of the story.

You can only understand that properly if you share the same fights, the same sacrifices and struggles. Otherwise you become disassociated from that aspect of the story and it becomes a little less meaningful. It comes back to story immersion.

[Kipi]

Missed this one in my last posting.

Sorry but you are nly looking at it from an already put together point of view. In reality the exact same amount of effort would have gone into it probably less, and as for making it twice as big the way it's set up now is also a false assumption.

I can count at least from the beginning of this adventure to at least outside the camp for the joining at least 100, un-needed, wasted, & dead end dialog. and that is just near the beginning.

So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that removing all of that useless, un-needed, dead end crap you have freed up all that space which can be replaced with real actual gameplay and choices which would be less than the room used for all teh original useless, un-needed, dead end crap
So trying to say that this would make the this bigger, sorry doesn't work like that.

You know, those "worthless" dialogues form the big part of the world the game is put in. Those dialogies give you information about events, places, monsters, items, party members and so on. Those dialogies make the world feel alive, at least in my opinion. Lorewise the game would be quite empty if the only dialogies would be "Go there, kill that" or "Nice job, here is your reward. And now go to that guy for further assignments."

Again, this is matter opinion mostly.

[tx3000]

I get the impression that you've played DA:O for a few hours and got bored of all the talking and scene setting, when you simply just wanted to get started with the hacking and the slashing.

Everyone in here simply just do not get what's wrong with DA:O

I don't care about the hacking and slashing and yeah I get bored because regardless if this is a BioWare release you do not stuff this much talking into anything this close together over and over and over.

If people want to call this a game then it needs to have game elements in them.
A game, is about 5 min of talking about 10 min of actual moving trigering a cinematic once every 15-20 min.

A game is not:
Talking for 15 min, get to move for less than 2 min, triggering a 2-3 min cinematic, talking for 5 min, going through 6-8 min of more dialog, being given options then not being able to get free choice about what I want to choose. Finally getting to move then only being able to move for less than 1 min and repeating all that all over again.

yes that is broing and 100% un-needed, you simply do not do that to something when you are trying to attract people to something. At elast one of the options they should have put in there is an actual SKIP selection that when chosen kills the whole cinematic completely.
But BioWare couldn't even do that properly could they. Instead they had to make the way to do that by pressing ESC. It was bad enough the tedious dialog, but then they make it just as bad by tediously having to hit esc as well. Either way this is ludicrous and BioWare definatly needs lessons on how to actually turn something like this into a game. Because the way DAO is now is far from a game.

But a computer RPG should not be trodden upon for not giving the player absolute choice in the outcome of events, that is unrealistic.

Then explain how Summoner was able to do this and that was basically a PS2 Console game.

My whole point is that DA:O is very sloppy in how it was put together and that an adventure such as DAO should not have been made by BioWare and that should have been made by people who know how to impliment actual game play, story, and freedom evenly.

But BioWare took a perfectly good story driven adventure and totally destroyed the way it should have been done by overloading it with 45+ hours of useless, un-needed, dead end, non-free choice crap.

BioWare needs lessons on how to make things llike DA:O properly they took a something that really has no place being formed like this and tried making it work like Dungeons and Dragons and this is not Dungeons and Dragons.

BioWare turning this into something it's not, is the exact same thing as taking GTA, Stripping out the freeroam ability and forcing it to be like Streetfighter 4.

It just wouldn't work, and you simply just cannot do that to GTA but all the fanboys of arena fighting games would say it's awesome and works perfectly the way it is dispite GTA cannot be an arena fighting game.

or an even better example is when Castlevania Curse of darkness was made, they took castlevania and did something to it that just didn't work and that was take a side scroller and make it 3D, and you just cannot be doing to castlevania games.

DAO's set up cannto be restriccted to one way story driven no free choice linear crap. The style of DAO is not how it's set up for what BioWare did to it.

Want to do this to a game then they should have taken ZORK or Dungeon Keeper

[Solusek]

Ok before anyone harps on me about this topic and all the fan boys come running in read a few lines and decide to flame me like that usually happens, please read the whole thing because I have presented very structured opinionated argument that has extremely solid and backed up facts to them

....


Enjoy

Maybe this game isn't for you. If you don't like dialogue, play Diablo.


So long,
Sol