The Swiss minaret ban (no spam)

[fable]

This, from the New York Times:

In a vote that displayed a widespread anxiety about Islam and undermined the country's reputation for religious tolerance, the Swiss on Sunday overwhelmingly imposed a national ban on the construction of minarets, the prayer towers of mosques, in a referendum drawn up by the far right and opposed by the government.

The referendum, which passed with a clear majority of 57.5 percent of the voters and in 22 of Switzerland's 26 cantons, was a victory for the right. The vote against was 42.5 percent. Because the ban gained a majority of votes and passed in a majority of the cantons, it will be added to the Constitution.

The Swiss Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, but the rightist Swiss People's Party, or S.V.P., and a small religious party had proposed inserting a single sentence banning the construction of minarets, leading to the referendum.

The Swiss government said it would respect the vote and sought to reassure the Muslim population -- mostly immigrants from other parts of Europe, like Kosovo and Turkey -- that the minaret ban was "not a rejection of the Muslim community, religion or culture."

Certainly not. Whomever would come to that conclusion?

A few notes: there are roughly 150 mosques in Switzerland. There are only 4 with minarets. None of them issue a call to prayer. So this really does nothing to deal with serious immigration issues, and does everything to increase the sense of alienation of these immigrants, and hostility in general.

Over to you, for comments on any aspect of this. Please keep it relevant.

[Fljotsdale]

Yeah, I was quite surprised when I heard this on the News. And I have to say I have very mixed feelings about it.
Whilst I am appalled by the anti-Islam feeling that this reflects, I can also understand it. I live in Birmingham, UK, and we have a great many Muslims in this city. Not many Mosques, though; and of those, very few with minarets.
BUT: the presence of Islam in the city is plain to be seen in the huge numbers seen every time I go into the city centre. I feel like an alien in my own city. It's quite disturbing. I have even begun to feel defensive of Christianity, and I'm a rabid atheist!
Britain is pretty much an atheistic culture, and I like it that way; but it seems to me to be becoming more aggressivly Christian in response to the invasion (yes, it feels like invasion) of Islam.

But, one of my daughters is married to a Muslim; I know several Muslims, and they are all very nice people; I have met and conversed with many other Muslims and discussed religion with them, and we have got along just fine. As people, as individuals, I have no argument with them, any more than I have with Christians of my acquaintance.

But the presence of such numbers as I see in my city streets disturbs me very much, and I imagine it must raise much the same feelings in many people in Switzerland.

[dragon wench]

I wasn't all that shocked at this news to be honest. I spent a year living in Switzerland... While there is indeed much made of the nation's cultural and religious tolerance, my own impression after a few months was that said "tolerance" is something of a smug veneer, rather like Switzerland's "neutrality" during the war.

[Tamerlane]

Hmmm, I read that not long ago and wondered how our resident Swiss friend is going. Does Fas/CM still visit the forums? His insight was always informative.

[Dottie]

I always point and laugh whenever some religious nut job argues that this or that is an encroachment of freedom of religion, but in this case I believe it is actually a valid argument.

The reason for my scorn is that it's usually about some law that is equal for everyone but inconvenient for people of a certain faith, My point being that I don't see a reason to give any special perks to any religion. A ban on minarets is something completely different from that, because there are no practical concerns with minarets, the only reason is that they have a religious meaning, which in my opinion should not be punishable.

In addition to this i find it terribly ironic that if I was some kind of evil hollywood-style extremist muslim terrorist I could hardly have staged a better PR coup.

[galraen]

Interesting that everyone seems to assume that anyone who'd vote against such a ban must be doing it on anti-muslim grounds. In most instances they are probably correct, but I have to say that if I was living in the vicinity of a proposed minaret I'd vote against them too. The thought of having someone bellowing in my ear five times a day doesn't bear thinking about, no matter what religion!

[GawainBS]

Just to add a perspective (I'm not endorsing nor condamning the ban at the moment, mind you): It was a direct democratic decision. Do you ignore it because of democratic values like freedom of religion? Wouldn't that make the whole idea of democracy hollow?

[Vicsun]

Interesting that everyone seems to assume that anyone who'd vote against such a ban must be doing it on anti-muslim grounds. In most instances they are probably correct, but I have to say that if I was living in the vicinity of a proposed minaret I'd vote against them too. The thought of having someone bellowing in my ear five times a day doesn't bear thinking about, no matter what religion!

Whilst I am appalled by the anti-Islam feeling that this reflects, I can also understand it. I live in Birmingham, UK, and we have a great many Muslims in this city. Not many Mosques, though; and of those, very few with minarets.
BUT: the presence of Islam in the city is plain to be seen in the huge numbers seen every time I go into the city centre. I feel like an alien in my own city. It's quite disturbing. I have even begun to feel defensive of Christianity, and I'm a rabid atheist!
Britain is pretty much an atheistic culture, and I like it that way; but it seems to me to be becoming more aggressivly Christian in response to the invasion (yes, it feels like invasion) of Islam.

Can you elaborate on why you see Islam as an invading force, and how it's making you feel an alien in your own city? If suddenly a lot of people of a different race moved in, would you feel similarly?

edit:

I have no clue what Swiss law is like, but I'd assume that the government can't overrule a referendum, and if they can, it's a process Switzerland has chosen to include in their governing system in order to avoid a tyranny of the masses. The short answer of 'should we ignore the referendum' is 'no, but we should ridicule it as loudly as possibly on the internet (edit2: and on the streets, cafes, bars, and every other possible avenue of public discourse)'.

[QuenGalad]

A few notes: there are roughly 150 mosques in Switzerland.There are only 4 with minarets. None of them issue a call to prayer.

It seems to me that when you organize such a referendum, you do it for a reason, and if they do not issue the calls, then noise wasn't it. Is there any clue to the reason for puttind it to the vote in the first place? Are the minarets a danger for air traffic, that they cannot be constructed, perhaps?

[Chanak]

I always point and laugh whenever some religious nut job argues that this or that is an encroachment of freedom of religion, but in this case I believe it is actually a valid argument.

The reason for my scorn is that it's usually about some law that is equal for everyone but inconvenient for people of a certain faith, My point being that I don't see a reason to give any special perks to any religion. A ban on minarets is something completely different from that, because there are no practical concerns with minarets, the only reason is that they have a religious meaning, which in my opinion should not be punishable.

In addition to this i find it terribly ironic that if I was some kind of evil hollywood-style extremist muslim terrorist I could hardly have staged a better PR coup.

I think Dottie does a fine job above detailing what pretty much amounts to my own opinion regarding this. Dragon Wench also hits on something I saw for myself during the years I spent living in Europe. I visited Switzerland a number of times and I share her observation.

[Fljotsdale]

Can you elaborate on why you see Islam as an invading force, and how it's making you feel an alien in your own city? If suddenly a lot of people of a different race moved in, would you feel similarly?

I don't think so. We have a lot of people of black African and West Indian origin, as well of lot of recent Somali immigrants, in the city. Plus we have always had the Irish, the Scots, the Welsh, the Jews, and, since WW2, a lot of Polish people too. We also now have a great many people from the European community - Rumanians, Czech, etc. Of the above groups, none make me feel uncomfortable, apart from the Somalis, who are also largely Muslim.

I do not think I am racist.
I think I am simply afraid of Islam.

And that is not a matter of the colour of a person's skin or of their facial delineaments. It is the religion. I feel threatened by it.

We are not a religious nation. I am not religious. Even Christians in the uk are mostly not particularly religious. Muslims ARE religious, for the most part, and that presents, to me, a threat to my way of life. I have an awful vision of all of us non-muslims eventually being sidelined and the uk becoming a Muslim state. Illogical? Maybe. But that's how I feel. And I suspect I'm not the only one.

[Dottie]

Just to add a perspective (I'm not endorsing nor condamning the ban at the moment, mind you): It was a direct democratic decision. Do you ignore it because of democratic values like freedom of religion? Wouldn't that make the whole idea of democracy hollow?

Democracy does never apply to all parts of society, and it shouldn't. There is a very good reason for not making court decisions on popular vote for example.

The way the Swiss democracy is set up it leaves more power to the voters than most nations do, but in this particular case the initiative for the law comes from the Swiss People's Party, currently the largest one in the parliament at about 26%, so a different system might not have helped much.

[GawainBS]

Democracy does never apply to all parts of society, and it shouldn't. There is a very good reason for not making court decisions on popular vote for example.

The way the Swiss democracy is set up it leaves more power to the voters than most nations do, but in this particular case the initiative for the law comes from the Swiss People's Party, currently the largest one in the parliament at about 26%, so a different system might not have helped much.

So laws in a democratic society shouldn't be made in a democratic fashion?

[Xandax]

Personally - I'd vote against it myself as well, but not as much because it is Islam, but because it is religious. I'd vote against any such religious initiatives if put to a vote.
I'm growing increasingly annoyed and weary of anybody with religious motives and the attempts to alter societies to fit the religions instead of vice versa.
I do see religion as one of the most dangerous concepts we have - especially political religions - and thus I'd personally oppose such initiatives if put up for democratic votes.

And I can only admit that I can follow Fljotsdale in a lot of the reasoning, and I also think it is why the right wing part of this country is having success with its fear mongering, because they touch upon the fears of having own cultures changed or sidelined by demands/preassure from other cultures.
And when those cultures are founded in religon, then I too am very careful and weary against those changes.

[Vicsun]

And that is not a matter of the colour of a person's skin or of their facial delineaments. It is the religion. I feel threatened by it.

We are not a religious nation. I am not religious. Even Christians in the uk are mostly not particularly religious. Muslims ARE religious, for the most part, and that presents, to me, a threat to my way of life. I have an awful vision of all of us non-muslims eventually being sidelined and the uk becoming a Muslim state. Illogical? Maybe. But that's how I feel. And I suspect I'm not the only one.

A few follow up questions - I hope it doesn't sound like I'm interrogating you: I'm genuinely interested in a justification of what you've written, because it's a sentiment I see often. Why do you feel that practicing muslims are a threat to your way of life? Regarding your fear of non-muslims being sidelined, and the UK becoming an islamic state: do you genuinely see that as a feer that is justified, grounded in facts and likely to come true or is the sort irrational (but very real) gut-fear one experiences when bungee jumping? Finally, would you acknowledge that Switzerland's ban of minarets is not based on practical concerns such as noise pollution, but is a knee-jerk reaction based on fear of islam (which you share)?

I'll postulate that even if one was to accept that muslims were a threat to the average Swiss' way of life, a ban on minarets would do nothing to lessen the threat (the threat itself being vague and ominous), making it ill-advised even from a socially conservative perspective. Conversely, it will serve to antagonize, marginalize, and disenfranchise muslims which might otherwise be more likely to seamlessly integrate. I felt antagonized, marginalized, disenfranchised, and generally really angry when the indoors smoking ban was instituted, and chances are smoking is a smaller part of my identity than religion is for a religious person.

edit:

So laws in a democratic society shouldn't be made in a democratic fashion?

A few referendums aside, laws in democratic societies are never made in a democratic fashion.

I can't quite follow - would you vote against the referendum (and thus for minarets), or vice versa?

[galraen]

Why do you feel that practicing muslims are a threat to your way of life?

Answering for myself, Islam as it is practiced is a misogynistic religion, women are routinely marginalised and discriminated against, they aren't even allowed in most, if not all Mosques. That's just one example of how Islam is frankly undemocratic and anti-social, there are others.

Conversely, it will serve to antagonize, marginalize, and disenfranchise muslims which might otherwise be more likely to seamlessly integrate.

I don't think Muslims can seamlessly integrate, the religion is simply too alien to western European cultures.

[GawainBS]

edit:

A few referendums aside, laws in democratic societies are never made in a democratic fashion.

They are, directly or indirectly. They're made by the chosen representatives of the people. I'm not saying that the majority is always right (as a Belgian, I know what I'm talking about when I say that... ), but I find that this issue raises a lot of questions about the inherent difficulties of a democracy.

As an aside: When you mentioned the indoor smoking-ban, I was struck between the similarities between smoking & religion: they both tend to be rather detrimental to the health of non-groupmembers. (And groupmembers alike, come to think of it...) (Don't take this last paragraph to seriously.)

[jklinders]

The whole thing seems kind of knee jerk to me, then again neither this article not the Daily Show(where I got this from) gave me any real meat to chew on as to the reason for the ban. The reason could just as easily be architectural as religious. After all a minaret does not even remotely resemble the Swiss architecture.

If I was a hate monger among the extreme side of Islam, I would be having a field day over this unnecessary ban. I will say that in general it is bad precedent to alter the constitution of your country so as to remove rights unless you think things through first.

I do understand the concern some may have about an "Islam invasion".The second most commonly spoken language here in Halifax is Arabic. No minarets here yet but it is only a matter of time. The middle eastern community here is vibrant and growing. They seem to be like anyone else as well, in that there are both good and bad folks.

Seems to me that people who live in democracies will tend to want to keep it that way.

[Vicsun]

As an aside: When you mentioned the indoor smoking-ban, I was struck between the similarities between smoking & religion: they both tend to be rather detrimental to the health of non-groupmembers. (And groupmembers alike, come to think of it...) (Don't take this last paragraph to seriously.)

Hah! I think you're on to something. The threat to non-group members is vastly less than non-group members' animosity towards group members, and non-group members need to stop their incessant whining and control their irrational fears.

[Fljotsdale]

A few follow up questions - I hope it doesn't sound like I'm interrogating you: I'm genuinely interested in a justification of what you've written, because it's a sentiment I see often.

I don't mind at all.

Why do you feel that practicing muslims are a threat to your way of life?

Actually, it's not so much to MY way of life - I'm an oldie, probably dead in 10 years or so - but to my grandchildren's lives. And maybe they won't mind. Who knows? But muslims are increasing in numbers, at least in the cities; they have a higher birthrate than the average Brit. They are becoming members of Parliament. They will help formulate our laws. Also, as their population grows, they will change our mores and attitudes (unless we manage to change theirs!)

Regarding your fear of non-muslims being sidelined, and the UK becoming an islamic state: do you genuinely see that as a feer that is justified, grounded in facts and likely to come true

Yes. If you look at the history of the spread of Islam, you will notice that Islam either gradually or immediately suppressed indiginous population's belief systems, making Islam the only accepted faith. All other faiths, attitudes, mores and culture, if not destroyed, were totally sidelined and replaced by Islamic culture.

or is the sort irrational (but very real) gut-fear one experiences when bungee jumping?

That too.

Finally, would you acknowledge that Switzerland's ban of minarets is not based on practical concerns such as noise pollution, but is a knee-jerk reaction based on fear of islam (which you share)?

Yes.

I'll postulate that even if one was to accept that muslims were a threat to the average Swiss' way of life, a ban on minarets would do nothing to lessen the threat (the threat itself being vague and ominous), making it ill-advised even from a socially conservative perspective. Conversely, it will serve to antagonize, marginalize, and disenfranchise muslims which might otherwise be more likely to seamlessly integrate.

I quite agree. It was a stupid decision.

I felt antagonized, marginalized, disenfranchised, and generally really angry when the indoors smoking ban was instituted, and chances are smoking is a smaller part of my identity than religion is for a religious person.

Whereas I felt enfrachised, for the first time, to eat a pub meal in comfort!