Longswords or Axes on a Str build?

[Revi]

I'm currently playing a dualwielding warrior with all two-weapon talents and 70 Strength. I've managed to obtain Starfang (1h), Keening Blade, The Veshaille and Aodh. Now I am wrecking my brain over which to equip.

The longswords show me higher numbers on the character sheet, but I really don't know if I am not hurting my damage in some invisible way by equipping them. Longswords do more damage, but Axes have a higher STR modifier (1.10 > 1.00). At what point does the influence of this strength modifier become enough to outdamage the swords?

[Scottg]

I'm currently playing a dualwielding warrior with all two-weapon talents and 70 Strength. I've managed to obtain Starfang (1h), Keening Blade, The Veshaille and Aodh. Now I am wrecking my brain over which to equip.

The longswords show me higher numbers on the character sheet, but I really don't know if I am not hurting my damage in some invisible way by equipping them. Longswords do more damage, but Axes have a higher STR modifier (1.10 > 1.00). At what point does the influence of this strength modifier become enough to outdamage the swords?

The character sheet says it all, except the elemental damage, armor penetration, and the net effect on criticals/backstabs. (..in other words for your character stick with the longswords, unless in the case of Aodh, you could use the additional fire resistance that it has.)

Note however that Aodh, does NOT have a 3rd rune slot, so you can't add-on as many runes as the other weapons you have listed.

[GawainBS]

There are way better longswords than axes in the game. The 10% extra damage from STR doesn't even come close to compare.

[Crenshinibon]

Equipped with The Veshialle, your character would do more damage than if he or she were using a longsword. Don't forget that the axe also comes with three runeslots.

The damage on your character sheet only accounts for so many things. So, while your damage per hit (or as seen on the character sheet) may be higher when you're dual wielding axes, in reality, your DPS would be greater if you use an axe with a dagger in the offhand as you would attack more often.

[GawainBS]

Does The Veshialle also outclass Starfang? It has higher base damage, higher armour penetration and a bonus to damage, which applies to the offhand weapon as well, as far as I know.

[Crenshinibon]

On the character sheet, Starfang does one damage more than The Veshialle, yes, but it doesn't account for the two bonus nature damage from the axe, which puts it ahead by one damage.

Damage aside, the axe gives much greater benefits than the longsword, including higher critical damage, bonus stamina regeneration (to offset Momentum's cost) and of course a five bonus to score a critical hit.

[Scottg]

Damage aside, the axe gives much greater benefits than the longsword, including higher critical damage, bonus stamina regeneration (to offset Momentum's cost) and of course a five bonus to score a critical hit.

I think it was designed to accompany the "biteback axe" for dual-wielding. The only problem there is that you can't get to that additional axe until well into the game. (..and frankly axe + dagger looks "off".)

BTW, after some testing the Axe or Longsword + Dagger does NOT result in more damage over time. For some reason the Dagger's damage seems to get hosed (often resulting in slightly more than half of the damage of a comparable longsword or axe). Neither Strength, Dexterity, OR Cunning/Lethality seem to provide the kind of *net* damage a longsword or axe does dual-wielding. Nor does any critical/backstab *damage* modifier make up for it. What can "count" are those critical attack modifiers (..like the Veshaille has), unless of course you are only attacking with critical-type attacks. ..at least that's been my experience.

[Crenshinibon]

Honestly, I don't think that the Biteback Axe is worth it. The Rose's Thorn is much better due to the damage, the speed and of course the benefits. It may look off, but it's certainly one of the best options out there. Also, by using the dagger in your offhand, you save two talent points.

I never had any problems with daggers, but of course they do less damage to make up for their fast attack speed. Dexterity is only used by ranged weapons and daggers (50% contribution to damage for the former). Same goes for Cunning, except that it also increases critical chance and armor penetration (with the help of the Lethality talent for rogues).

The critical/backstab modifiers DO work in my experience.

[Scottg]

Honestly, I don't think that the Biteback Axe is worth it. The Rose's Thorn is much better due to the damage, the speed and of course the benefits. It may look off, but it's certainly one of the best options out there. Also, by using the dagger in your offhand, you save two talent points.

I never had any problems with daggers, but of course they do less damage to make up for their fast attack speed. Dexterity is only used by ranged weapons and daggers (50% contribution to damage for the former). Same goes for Cunning, except that it also increases critical chance and armor penetration (with the help of the Lethality talent for rogues).

The critical/backstab modifiers DO work in my experience.

When I used daggers they invariably *netted* less damage. I'm not even sure I could quantify the percentage of gain to attacks over time that the dagger's speed provided, but it didn't seem particular noticeable. I know the numbers -.1 vs. -.5, its just that whatever they represent doesn't seem that significant, with dagger/dagger perhaps nearing a 20% gain (i.e. maybe an extra attack every 5 for each weapon). In an of itself that doesn't over-ride the net damage of either sword or war axe even with a modest gain in armor penetration.

On the other hand IF you pile a ton of poisons on (that aren't resisted) then yeah, at some point it should "tip" in favor of the daggers.

Of course with anything but momentum, the other talents largely do not fully leverage an increase in attack speed from daggers.

However I'll also note that the Two-weapon talent "mastery" that provides access to full-size off-hand weapons requires 36 in Dexterity, which as you noted (with Dexterity only providing damage to daggers) will necessarily limit your Damage via Strength for both of the larger weapons.

But again, my experience says go for the Longswords or the War Axes rather than a dagger in both or in the off-hand (poison quantity dependent).

Of course the best option is for each person to try it themselves and come to their own conclusions. :laugh:

BTW, I did recognize the damage modifiers on criticals and backstabs - it's just that like the use of daggers in general, I didn't find their additions particularly compelling.

[Crenshinibon]

Well, my experience with dual wielding daggers comes from Rogues only, which is what I had on my second playthrough. Fully buffed, my rogue had thirty percent critical chance, about twenty armor penetration and about sixty damage per dagger. This alone makes them worth it. My rogue would usually do over a hundred damage per backstab though.

Since this discussion is about warriors, I guess larger weapons would be better. I haven't tried any dual wield warriors yet, only sword and shield as well as two handed. Despite the speed, I can definitely see how a dagger's damage could be stunted since it uses half of strength and half of dexterity to determine damage, though its' speed is .4 faster than the sword or axe. This is something to keep in mind if you plan to auto-attack a lot, but with proper talent usage, I think that this can be ignored.

The thing to also consider is the size of the weapon, since it does play a part in the usage of certain talents such as Whirlwind.

[GawainBS]

I think that the offhand weapon speed gets adjusted to the mainhand weapon speed, from what I've seen. It would make off-hand daggers less appealing.

[Crenshinibon]

The overall attack speed is the average attack speed of the two weapons you're using, which would make offhand dagger users faster than those that use some other weapon.

[fable]

The overall attack speed is the average attack speed of the two weapons you're using, which would make offhand dagger users faster than those that use some other weapon.

The average? So if you have a longsword in the left hand and a dagger in the right, it's the same as if you had the two weapons reversed? Just checking. Game systems are often quite funky in such respects.

[Crenshinibon]

Technically that's what it should be, though I haven't checked. There is a DPS thread on the BioWare forum where there original poster (Discobird) looked into the toolset and found that the "attack interval", or the time you wait between attacks, at its base is one and a half seconds. So to figure out your time interval for dual wielding you would do this:

((1.5 + Weapon 1 Speed Modifier) + (1.5 + Weapon 2 Speed Modifier)) / 2 = Attack Interval.

So the attack interval for:

Dual Daggers is one second,
Longsword or Axe with a Dagger is one and a fifth seconds,
Dual Longswords or Axes is one and two fifth seconds.

You can find the [url="http://dragonage.gulbsoft.org/doku.php/items/weapons"]Speed Modifiers[/url] at the Missing Manual.

[Scottg]

..Fully buffed, my rogue had thirty percent critical chance, about twenty armor penetration and about sixty damage per dagger. This alone makes them worth it. My rogue would usually do over a hundred damage per backstab though.

.

Urrggg.

What's "Fully Buffed", because I want that kind of damage!

Seriously, with a purely average sword and dagger and pushing 17 levels with Lethality and a Cunning over 45 I was seeing something like 24 and 18. The combined average backstab resulted in a little over 60 - and that's when I'd hit. (..this against a single opponent "yellow" with armor.)

Often the attacks would miss, and this was with attack modifiers including the Dualist's +10, and a fair chunk of attribute points in Dexterity (40 I think).

Worse, when the opponent was stunned with Dirty Fighting, my Coup de Grace seemed to critical at best 1 in 3.

[mr_sir]

The trick with rogues is always attack from behind. With the correct talents, this makes every hit a crit, which greatly increases your damage. I had a longsword and a dagger on my rogue and my crits ranged from 50 to 120. With the build I used, pretty much every hit was a crit as I used shale and alistair as joint tanks to ensure I could always backstab, together with Wynne keeping the tanking duo alive. I also had stealth talents maxed and used this often to shake off attention and get behind opponents. My final dexterity with full gear was about 60 and my cunning was around 50 (again with items). I also had strength of 30 without items, and about 35 or something with items.

[Crenshinibon]

Fully buffed is with Tainted Blade and the Song of Courage, which results in about sixty six damage. Lethality only affects piercing weapons, such as daggers, bows and crossbows, so it's pointless to use a sword with a Cunning based rogue.

By putting points into Cunning you are getting the highest damage possible, but also the lowest attack. As such, you'll want to rely on gear that gives bonuses to attributes and abilities that grant an attack bonus, such as Dueling or Song of Courage to pump it up.

Coup de Grace is an AMAZING skill and between your stunning abilities as well as Grandmaster Paralyze runes, you can do some serious damage. Even the Archdemon affected by it.

Like mr_sir said, you generally want to attack from behind, but after you get Coup de Grace, you can take them head on. I usually go into stealth mode and initiate combat by attacking either the toughest opponent, or caster from behind.

As for stats (natural), I had about fourteen strength, thirty dexterity and eighty three Cunning. ALL my backstabs did over one hundred damage.

If you're interested in DPS as a rogue, check out [url="http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/223777/1"]this[/url] thread.