I challange all Dungeon Lords Veterans! Help me plan the right character for me!!

[Zanatar]

My goal here today, is to entice all of you Dungeon Lord Veterans to come out of your lurking caves and hopfully help me out here.

While you guys don't know me, as I am new here, you may already know someone very much similar to me. I am refering to "Columbo" , who posted in his very useful thread on this forum called "The first 5 levels" . Here is the link:
[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/dungeon-lords-93/the-first-5-levels-89394.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/dungeon-lords-93/the-first-5-levels-89394.html[/url]

In reading his thread, I was amazed at how similar he and I are. Where I am at now, is very much where he was at that start of his thread. Like he was, I am now new to the game, I have been playing the starter area over and over to get a feel for the game and reading as much as I could from here, as he once did. And also like him, I am not one to replay a game over again.

It is for this reason (just like him), that I do a tremendous amount of research in the games I play, (RPG's mainly) and study the foums an how the characters are created. I like to map out my character very carefully from the start. The problem with this, is knowing the finer points of a game. Not all works as well on paper (in planning etc), once your in the real game itself. That's where you vets come in. I need your help in fleshing out this character in my head and make him a viable , thriving character in the game.

I have done alot of reading on this forum . I've been lurking here for the better part of a week. The two most informative threads so far I've found are those of "Columbo" that I've linked above, and that of "kaizen" in his thread titled "total newbie, it's possible a "tactical fighter" . Found at this link:
[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/dungeon-lords-93/total-newbie-its-possible-a-tactical-fighter-88772.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/dungeon-lords-93/total-newbie-its-possible-a-tactical-fighter-88772.html[/url]

I've learned alot reading these threads and they have helped me flesh out a bit more of what I'm looking for.

To start of, I guess I need to describe what it is I'm after.
I want a Melee character. I want a fast lean , mean fighter that is a melee Killing Machine. I don't mind using magic to some extend but mainly to be used in a support roll as a means to enhance my existing melee abilities but nothing further in terms of magic. This character is not a mage by any stretch.

In my head, I see this character dual wielding, which I've read is very good in this game. So that is good. But does it work well right to the end game?

One thing I do not like (when I envision my character), is polerarms. While I understand Heavy pole weapons and such in Dungeon Lords is very powerful, I just don't see my character using them. It's not my play style. So I hope dual wield will trully bring me right to the endgame without problems.

I've learned quite a bit already in terms of how the game works. So I'll break it down some more.

Race:

I've learned that playing as a Female in this game has many advantages. Espeically when it comes to bonuses to Int, and therefore reducing cost of attributes and skills. As such I'd likely choose a Female Human. As I've read it's the choice to take for a fighter.

Attributes:

From everything I've read, I've learned how important Int is in this game. Due to reducing the cost of ADV points for buying futher attributes and skills. I've learned that it's important to invest mostly in Attributes, that is until you've gained the learning bonuses gained after obtaining your different classes. For example. Makes no sense investing too much , say in Light weapons at the start of the game , when I am just a Fighter, when I'll have 4 bonuses to Light Weapons later on due to my choices of classes. So I'll save many ADV points as such. Granted I understand I need to get the minimums needed for my next class pre-reqs of attribues and skills.

So I've learned that at the very start (Birth of the character), to dump all of my starting Adv poins, into Int. And perhaps just spending a very small amount in basic skills to get myself out of any negative penalties. Then I'd raise the rest of my Attributes to my next class's prereq's.

Class:

This is pretty much the most important part of my character. The heart of soul of what this character will be. Here is what I've come up with:

Fighter/Adept/Monk/Marauder/Deathlord.

These choices I've made are based on the influences of the various threads I've read, espeically the two I've linked in this forum. In fact this build is practically that of "Scottg" in the Tacticle Fighter Thread, with the exception of taking Death Lord instead of Shadow lord. I do not like the idea of ShadowLord, due to the magic aspect of it. Doesn't fit what I'm invisioning.

The biggest doubt I have here is that of my 1st choice for Tier 2. ie: Monk. It was basically a choice between 3 of them (Paladin, Valkyrie and Monk.

I read that the Paladin and Valkyrie are essentially the same, but as a Paladin, I trade in the heavy polerarms of the Valkyrie (that I won't need anyway with Duel Wield) in place of the Paladin's Channel skill. But I not sure how I'd use channel. I know I'll have some magic skills with Rune etc but not sure how important it is for me to have Channel. I keep reading it's usefull though. As for the Monk, "ScottG" in the Tactical Fighter thread once agian, had some good points for choosing the monk, such as how it provides the eastern class access to "The Master" heraldry, gives you learning bonus to Rune Magic, Celestial Magic, provides access to Channel, and gives you a learning bonus in Athletics. And the monk also provides access to the Winter Shuriken relatively early in the game (no idea how useful this would be for me though)

The other downside to choosing monk, is that as Paladin, I'd be gaining some Learning skills toward all The weapons and Armor. I'd be going from having all 4 bonsuses in Light and Medium Weapons (as a paladin) down to 3 (as a monk). Or 3 in Heavy Weapons (as a Paladin) down to 2 (as a monk. ).
Same goes with the armor. Most notably Heavy armor, being at 2 bonusus (as paladin) down to just the 1 bonus (as a monk). Not sure if this is all worth it to gain the Mastery Heraldy that Id' get access to as a monk.
I could use your advice on this.

Other info:

As for my having a suppoted magic role, this is where Rune Magic comes in. I like how it is specifically to boost existing melee skills. It's exactly what I envision my character doing.

In terms of end game attribues. I am not sure how to build my stats. I think I read that it's best to not go BEYOND whatever the prereqs are for 3rd tier.
In the case of Death Lord , my end stats would look like this:
Str 45, Int 30, Dex 35, Agi 35, Vit 45, Hon 30

Is that advisable? How should my end stats look like for my Attributes, given my build.

Heraldry:

Now this is the one thing I am not to use how it works. I don't know exactly when you get to choose a new Heraldry and how many you have overall.
I know you get one at start of the game. I'm going to assume (until corrected otherwise), that Heraldry skills are given with each class. So 5 in total, if that's the case.
I'm gonig to go based on my being correct, that you get 5, (Starter, the other tier 1 guild, 2 tier2 heraldry's and 1 tier 3 heraldry.
So my choices would be as so:
1) The Lady and the Lion: Strike +2
2) The knave of swords: Strike +1, Damage +5%, Parry +1
3) The Noble: Strike +2 , Damage +10%, Parry +2
4) The Master: +10% Double Damage
5) The Conqueror: Fear Strike +25%, Strike +3

The only one I am not sure I'd have access too is The Noble, in which case maybe I'd replace it with: The Knight Walker: Strike +2, Parry +2

So that's pretty much it. How is it? Is a good build? Is it viable? Could you even say it's more then viable , and in fact thriving? Will this character be a Lean Mean fighting Killing Machine, as I envisioned?

My concerns is that I'm overlooking something, in that I don't know how the game plays, so perhaps things I've chosen or said are not the best choices due to how the game mechanics work. Or as mentioned earlier, that perhaps it looks better on paper then in practice.

This is where I need your help.

I thank you all in advance. I will be even more thanfull if all you verterans get excited and take me on as a pet project to set me on the correct path.

I look foward to your replies.

Thanks again,
Zanatar.

[swcarter]

This is pretty much the most important part of my character. The heart of soul of what this character will be. Here is what I've come up with:

Fighter/Adept/Monk/Marauder/Deathlord.

Deathlord is the most expensive class (in terms of xp cost) in the game. You'll have a tough time achieving it without maximizing your learning bonuses. Plus, you can pick up "The Master" heraldry without taking any eastern classes. So I'd recommend that you pick Valkyrie or Paladin instead of monk.

SWC

[Zanatar]

Swcarter: Thank you for the reply. I have a question for you before I get into the specifics of your actual reply. But I'm curious, is the user community from this forum essentially all gone? After two posts, I've had many views for my two posts as the numbers kept growing for those who have viewed it, but no replies. Where is everyone? Especially all of those who welcomed passionate character discussion that I'm trying to get going with this thread.

But regardless, I appreicate your reply. Ok so to your first point:
- your saying that the Deathlord is the most expensive. Can you elaborate a bit. In what sense is it more expensive? Is it still doable?
And more importantly, is the deathlord worth the effort in the end. What I mean is, it would be a shame to put the effort in, and find out it was never worth it to begin with.

You have read my post, so you know what I'm looking for. I cannot seem to put together another mix of classes that finish off what what I am trying to build. I keep getting back to finishing off with Deathlord. Because he fits my style the most, at least by description that is. And he's the only class that gives Medium Dual weapons.

I welcome your suggestions on that.

To your 2nd point:
- Ah so ScottG's comments on the Monk are incorrect? Is it due to a change in the game ie: a patch? Where now the Master Heraldry is available regardless of choosing an eastern class? If that's truly the case, then I agree and I will likely put back Paladin for all the weapon and armor bonuses and Channel

Looking forward to your reply.

Thanks,
Zanatar.

[Cionaoith]

Your first post was rather lengthy; I'd venture to guess that most people looked, saw how long it was, and decided to come back when they had the time to read the whole thing. That is what I did, anyway. That said, there are only a few of us that are still around, and not everybody who reads the boards are registered (not to mention search engine bots).

I'm pretty sure that you need to take an Eastern House path in order to obtain The Master heraldry; it is given after passing one of the Eastern House quests.

The Deathlord class is "expensive" in that it requires a lot of training of certain skills (namely, heavy weapons, armor and shields). It is certainly doable; it just takes a lot more time.

Is it worth it for medium dual weapons? I don't think it really is. I think it would be more productive to be a Fighter/Samurai/Hatamoto/Adept/Paladin. This will give you light dual weapons (which is sufficient), inflict wounds, and critical strike as a Hatamoto, plus the heavy weapons/armor/shields gained through becoming a Paladin.

The training is not as severe as Deathlord, and you will find that there are a number of heavy swords that can be equipped as your primary weapon, as well as a good selection of light weapons for your off hand. Yes, medium weapons would be a little bit better, but the difference that critical strike makes in the game is much more advantageous.

[swcarter]

I'm pretty sure that you need to take an Eastern House path in order to obtain The Master heraldry; it is given after passing one of the Eastern House quests.

You have to complete a quest for the eastern houses, but you don't have to pick one of their classes.

Is [the deathlord class] worth it for medium dual weapons? I don't think it really is. I think it would be more productive to be a Fighter/Samurai/Hatamoto/Adept/Paladin. This will give you light dual weapons (which is sufficient), inflict wounds, and critical strike as a Hatamoto, plus the heavy weapons/armor/shields gained through becoming a Paladin.

My first time through the game I played as a deathlord / paladin, and I thought the character was fun. YMMV, of course.

SWC

[Wulf]

But I'm curious, is the user community from this forum essentially all gone?

This doesn't appear to be a very 'fast' forum, you may have to wait for replies. Also, wordiness may deter.

To start of, I guess I need to describe what it is I'm after.
I want a mêlée character. I want a fast, lean, mean fighter that is a mêlée killing machine. I don't mind using magic to some extend but mainly to be used in a support role as a means to enhance my existing mêlée abilities but nothing further in terms of magic. This character is not a mage by any stretch.

The way the game works, going completely without magic is hardly possible. The least you'll need are protective spells, as well as some means of anti-spam for when you are cornered with no escape.

Also, you'll need at least one class that allows the use of magic weapons to gain access to weapons' magic abilities like frost damage that freezes opponents. Without sufficient Magic Weapons skill, the magical attributes of a weapon won't work.

You'll badly need the protective Crystal and the Rune shield spells to ward off opposing spell-casters. With insufficient magic skills, your protection will not last long enough to close in on an enemy for mêlée combat, let alone strike them. Your character will simply die, over and over because most groups of enemies have casters.

In my head, I see this character dual wielding, which I've read is very good in this game. So that is good. But does it work well right to the end game?

Dual wielding can be very powerful, especially the Medium Dual wielding skill. It allows you to use the Winter No-Dachi and the Winter Katana at the same time with devastating effect. (The same goes for the No-Dachi of Night or the Demon Katana). Since these items are usually late in the game, you may want to pass them on to a fighter character via multi-player from a character who has already collected them.

This is pretty much the most important part of my character. The heart of soul of what this character will be. Here is what I've come up with:

Fighter/Adept/Monk/Marauder/Deathlord.

<SNIP>

As swcarter points out, the Deathlord is the most 'expensive' character with regard to the Heavy Weapons / Heavy Armour / Heavy Shield requirements (10 each, along with Nether and Rune Magic at 7 each). You could take a look at the character planner for a general overview of requirements:

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/dunge ... 71798.html

With Monk as a second tier class, you'll sorely miss the learning bonus of the Paladin. (Since you don't want to use pole arms, the Valkyrie is as useless as the Monk to you, also, the 'intermediate' Sisterhood quest doesn't give you a choice of heraldry, you'll receive

Spoiler

the Angel

regardless.)

To my knowledge, you only need to run the initial quests for the houses of Dragon and Tiger to gain access to the Master heraldry. Remember, however, that it only gives you a chance to do double damage, there's no guarantee built into it, and it depends on your ability to wield a highly damaging weapon.

A high Strength attribute is much more effective.

In addition, learn to deliberately use the different attacks and moves for each weapon you use that you receive at skill level 5, they all do something.

The Channel skill allows your crystals and rune stones to recharge faster, and you may need this where you have no means to rest other than to open your inventory and stand there waiting for your spells to return.

The Winter Shuriken is nice to have but you need to have the Magic Weapons skill to use it.

Membership in the Celestial Order gives you access to the more powerful Crystals, and you might consider paying an early visit to Grymlok to buy Runes and spells.

In the case of Death Lord , my end stats would look like this:
Str 45, Int 30, Dex 35, Agi 35, Vit 45, Hon 30

Is that advisable?

No, that's not advisable. 30 Intelligence means you'll literally spend weeks 'farming' Moonbeasts for experience. That's nowhere near enough, even if you decided to play an Elf.

At 45 Strength, your damage bonus won't be very high, and you absolutely depend on doing a lot of damage. The Asian weapons that have low strength requirements are scarce and not readily available unless you pass them on from a previous character, and they, too, depend on you having a lot of strength for added damage.

Your Dexterity determines your hit-factor, and if you've read the forum, you'll know about the strike bug. Keep your Dexterity between 40 and 50 before bonuses and you'll be right as rain. Don't forget about special features that come with weapons, armour, rings and trinkets.

Agility determines your parry skill and speed, and you may need to be very fast when you need to run from a monster mob. It also determines how well you can climb onto an 'emergency rock' when you're surrounded, and how much damage you take when you drop down from a height.

Vitality determines your hit points and Honour determines the prices you pay in shops as well as how badly physical damage affects your actions in battle. More honour means you're tougher, simply put.

Apart from Dexterity, there is no upper limit to your attributes, most notably Int, Str, Vit, and Agi.



As for skills, here's an overview of MAXIMUM levels (again):

All Weapons: MAX 15

Dual Wield: MAX 5


Parry: MAX 15

Armour and Shields: No need to go higher than 15, keep them balanced to avoid possible speed bug.


General Skills: MAX 5 - 10, to meet requirements; Athletics MIN 5 MAX 15


Magic Weapons: MAX 15

Identify MAX 15 to identify each and every item in the game, however, 5 - 10 usually is high enough. Save the points for something more important.

All other Magic: As high as you can afford. The four classes of magic are more important than scribe / channel / alchemy.


All Thievery: All MAX 10 (the few 12 chests in 1.5 can be forced open, or tackled with magic lock picks.)


Diabolical:

Weapons-related:

Inflict Wounds, Crushing Blow, Critical Strike, Ninjitsu: MAX 15

Backstab: MAX 10 (Sneak-related, causes hit-bug if it's any higher)

Hawkeye seems to do very little in 1.5, use at your own risk. For 1.4, MAX 15

Magic-related:

Spellfire, Drain Life, Iron Will, Shadow Lord: As high as possible.

1) The Lady and the Lion: Strike +2
2) The knave of swords: Strike +1, Damage +5%, Parry +1
3) The Noble: Strike +2 , Damage +10%, Parry +2
4) The Master: +10% Double Damage
5) The Conqueror: Fear Strike +25%, Strike +3

The only one I am not sure I'd have access too is The Noble, in which case maybe I'd replace it with: The Night Walker: Strike +2, Parry +2

Unlike the Noble, the Night Walker has no damage bonus which makes it MUCH inferior, and you'll get the Noble anyway.

You can receive ten or more heraldic signs during a single game, and they are given as follows:

1) Initial, on character creation.
2) Fortune Card
3+4) Guild membership mini-quests [except Rogue]
11) Sisterhood membership, female only, special heraldic sign
5) House of Dragon
6) The Noble (see Walkthrough for details)
7) House of Tiger
[3) Rogue]
8+9) Guild Intermediate quests, after 2nd tier
10) 3rd tier except Shadow Lord


All the strike bonuses you've chosen will lead you right to the strike bug which will be the end of your character in un-playability. What you need to look into are heraldic signs that help you cover for what you are lacking.

Here's a suggestion:

1) The Acrobat
2) The Knave of Stars
3+4) The Hierophant + The Warrior
[NOTE: The Warrior gives a permanent damage bonus, unlike the master]
11) The Protector
5) The Warder
6) The Noble (see Walkthrough for details)
7) The Astrologer
8+9) The Justiciar + Fool of Fortune
10) Conqueror

So that's pretty much it. How is it? Is a good build? Is it viable? Could you even say it's more then viable , and in fact thriving? Will this character be a Lean Mean fighting Killing Machine, as I envisioned?

Thanks again,
Zanatar.

A mêlée-oriented character is definitely hard to play as magic is the game's most powerful feature. Entire tomes could be written about the differing mage builds the game offers. The game is geared towards a combination of caster / fighter, where your personal preference determines whether you you use more magic or more weapons; limiting yourself to 'fighter only' (more or less) will certainly give you a hard time, and perhaps you won't find the game as enjoyable as it can be.

[Cionaoith]

According to the walkthrough, you only get The Master heraldry after

Spoiler

saving Yamamatsu

. That quest is only given after choosing and completing the quest for a second tier class from the Eastern Houses guild.

The heralds given for the generic Eastern House quests are The Tiger and The Dragon.

I agree that Deathlord is a very fun class. If someone is only going to play the game once, though, I don't feel that its benefits outweigh the time spent farming experience. The second time playing the game, though. . .

[swcarter]

Yeah, my mistake. You can only take The Master if you select an eastern house class. I'd still pick Paladin, though.

SWC

[Zanatar]

Well I am extremely happy to see the number of replies. I am very happy to see this community is still around and thriving .

And I agree that I can be wordy. In fact I apologize ahead of time, since I am somewhat known to be wordy in past game forums I've taken part of. Especially when they are RPG's. As that is my passion.

I will however, be patient and wait for replies. Now that I know your guys are still around I'm much less concerned. I still have plenty of questions, and likely each reply will generate more questions on my part , at least at the start, until I get a handle on things. So I hope you guys are up for it.

SO, to start off:

- To put to rest the issue of "The Master" Heraldry, I think it's a consensus then that you DO need to take an eastern class. In my original post this was a debate between Paladin vs Valkyrie vs Monk. And I agree that I think it makes more sense to take Paladin. However, in looking at Cionaoith's suggestion of choosing : Fighter/Adept/Paladin/Samurai/Hatamoto, would that not also give me eastern classe access via Samurai and Hatamoto?
Anotherwords Samurai and Hatamoto are eastern class types therefore I will have access to "The Master" Heraldry. Correct?

So then:

Concerning Cionaoith's suggestion of : Fighter/Adept/Paladin/Samurai/Hatamoto. I like it !!! I like it alot. I was too fixated on obtaining the Medium Dual Wielding. Plus I DO very much enjoy the idea of Critical Strikes. I am happy to include this. I think this will be my build.

Concerning Magic: Wulf's reply talked partially about how this game is hard if not impossible to win without some magic. With this new build, does that allow for enough magic? Will I be ok on that front?
Using the Dungeon Lords Planner, I can see with this build, I only have 3 magical related skill bonues:
1 in Celestial Magic , gained by Adept class
1 in Rune Magic, gained by Paladin class
1 in Magical Weapons, Gained by Adept Class.
Will that cut it? Or will I be lacking and finding this difficult?

Concerning Stats: Wulf: I thank you for giving me a very nice breakdown of each stat and how they play out. That helps a lot. Could I still however ask either yourself or someone else, given this new build choice of:
Fighter/Adept/Paladin/Samurai/Hatamoto, how you would plan your end game stats. I'd like to see what you or others recommend, as a ball park endgame stats. That will help me know how to plan my stats. Once I know where my end game stats will be, I map out a plan for how to get there and which to get there first etc.

Concerning Skills: Wulf, in your breakdown of the Maximums for each skill, is this to mean that is what you recommend each skill to be? ie: Not to go over those numbers? OR are you saying that is game terms, the max those stats will go too?
The reason I ask, is that there is a difference in the two ways of looking at it. If you tell me, that these numbers are what the gameing community have determined never to go beyond for each of these skills (for whatever reason) then this is extremely usefull info.

Or contrary, if those maximums are just how far the game will allow you to bring them, while that's stil useful info, I would however then ask you what value you recommend to bring them too.

Right off the bat, one that confuses me, is Dual Wield (Max 5).. Are you saying NOT to bring Light Dual Wield any higher then 5? Is there a bug (like the strike bug) or something that makes it dangerous to go higher then 5 for dual wield?

And lastly, concerning Heraldry: Wulf, you listed your recommendations on what Heraldry's to choose. ie:
1) The Acrobat
2) The Knave of Stars
3+4) The Hierophant + The Warrior
[NOTE: The Warrior gives a permanent damage bonus, unlike the master]
11) The Protector
5) The Warder
6) The Noble (see Walkthrough for details)
7) The Astrologer
8+9) The Justiciar + Fool of Fortune
10) Conqueror (This will change to The Eagle, since I'll be taking Hatamoto).

Would you change anything in this list, given that I am taking Cionaoith's advice and going with: Fighter/Adept/Paladin/Samurai/Hatamoto ?

I mean, besides just the final one of course, since 3rd tier has changed from Deathlord to Hatamoto.

I am very very excited with this character now. And as always looking forward to your next replies to this.. Thank you!.

Thanks,
Zanatar.

[Cionaoith]

It's not necessary to have any specific skill set in order to beat the game (with the exception that at least 1 scouting point will be necessary to progress within one dungeon; search this forum for "minimum Urgoth"). However, there are certain skill sets that will be advantageous at different levels within the game.

At the start, the game is highly melee-focused. As you progress through certain areas, it becomes very beneficial to have some magic abilities, as you will otherwise find yourself being swarmed upon by enemies; a blast nova, especially, will be of great use - but blast nova is available in spell scrolls, which require no magical ability to cast effectively (as opposed to the arcane blast novas, which require arcane skill). The only downside to spell scrolls, is that there is a monetary cost per spell (you buy the spell scrolls in shops, and each scroll can only be used once). Stockpiling a hundred blast nova spell scrolls is costly, although money is not an issue late in the game.

As your character progresses, if it is your goal to be a hardcore melee build, you can certainly do so without using much (if any) magic. I almost always do a melee build, and only occasionally use magic for such nuisance enemies as bats, bees and rats.

[Wulf]

... In other words, Samurai and Hatamoto are eastern class types therefore I will have access to "The Master" Heraldry. Correct?

Yes. Still, as I explained far above, The Master only provides you with a chance to do double damage, it's not a 'decider'. A higher STR value does more damage and allows you to wield better weapons and importantly, wear better armour.

Check the walkthrough for requirements and stats:

GameBanshee DL Equipment List

Concerning Cionaoith's suggestion of : Fighter/Adept/Paladin/Samurai/Hatamoto. I like it !!! I like it a lot. I was too fixated on obtaining the Medium Dual Wielding. Plus I DO very much enjoy the idea of Critical Strikes. I am happy to include this. I think this will be my build.

I've played this combination with a male elf, it definitely works well. The Critical Strike skill works on many opponents (in 1.5 (CE), more 'big' enemies are immune to it than in 1.4) and it's well worth having.

1 in Celestial Magic , gained by Adept class
1 in Rune Magic, gained by Paladin class
1 in Magical Weapons, Gained by Adept Class.
Will that cut it?

It'll do, no more, no less. Celestial Magic provides protection from elements and cures, Rune Magic has the Shield spells and Stone Shards (for monsters that are otherwise hard to beat, regardless of mêlée or magic). Magical Weapons is very important to 'unlock' weapon abilities, and it does make a big difference.

You'll need to buy and collect scrolls like Nova Blast for 'pest control'. Bats and killer bees can be handled in mêlée but it gets old VERY fast. Another scroll you'll want is Blade of Baal for nasty added damage. The Vines scroll can keep single enemies at bay, less so in 1.5 (CE) where many opponents are immune to petrification.

Concerning Stats:
Fighter/Adept/Paladin/Samurai/Hatamoto, how you would plan your end game stats.

Remember that you'll get several attribute bonuses during the game (12 points per attribute in total), and honour receives additional boosts through quests in 1.5 (CE).

End game, including above bonuses:

STR, INT, AGI, VIT: 60 - 80 (or even above), depending on weapon and armour requirements (Deathlord Plate requires 60 STR, for example) and how much you can stand to farm for experience.

DEX: 50 - 60 (careful there, as has been mentioned )

HON: Enough to meet requirements. 40?

Concerning Skills: Wulf, in your breakdown of the Maximums for each skill, is this to mean that is what you recommend each skill to be? ie: Not to go over those numbers? OR are you saying that is game terms, the max those stats will go to?

...

Right off the bat, one that confuses me, is Dual Wield (Max 5).. Are you saying NOT to bring Light Dual Wield any higher then 5? Is there a bug (like the strike bug) or something that makes it dangerous to go higher than 5 for dual wield?

These are maximum numbers that you should not exceed. Weapons need a minimum of 5 to give you the inherent attack moves.

In theory, you can raise (or edit) any skill to anything between 0 and 255.
However, there are caveats: The Weapons-related skills can all cause the strike bug for the weapon type they concern. 15 is the number that allows the use of all weapons in the game without causing the strike bug.

Keep in mind that some powerful weapons also carry a hit bonus that needs to be accounted for.

Backstab is combined with Sneak which adds a hit bonus to ALL weapons when you're not facing an enemy head-on. Raising it above 10 can lead to your being unable to hit opponents unless they face you (so that the bonus won't apply).

If you get by with a lower skill level, you're fine.

I put down the other MAX levels simply because it doesn't make sense to raise those skills and you'll be better off spending those points on attributes where they matter. For instance, as soon as you make a little profit by trading back and forth (check the forum), there's no need to waste points on that skill.

Early skills tend to be inexpensive for the ones related to your classes but every character will need some non-class-related ones, too, and you'll want to be economical with spending points.

As for Dual Wield: 5 gives you the 'special' attack moves and bonuses of these two skills, no use (see above) to go any higher. Put another point on STR or INT instead.

Seriously, the skills in Dungeon Lords do not need to go very high to be effective, unlike other games. Putting points on attributes is MUCH more important.

Works: Character with high attributes and limited (see above) skill levels.

DOESN'T work: Character with low attributes and high skill levels.

Dungeon Lords is very different in that respect.

And lastly, concerning Heraldry: Wulf, you listed your recommendations on what Heraldries to choose.

...

Would you change anything in this list, given that I am taking Cionaoith's advice and going with: Fighter/Adept/Paladin/Samurai/Hatamoto ?

...

Thanks,
Zanatar.

I wouldn't change the list, because you'll be faced with the same problems, in that you'll need to protect and cure yourself to survive. If you just keep dying miserably all the time, the game won't be fun.

Here's the list explained:

1) The Acrobat - Boosts your speed and defence early.
2) The Knave of Stars - Boosts your Celestial powers (heal / cure / protection).
3) The Warrior - 10% added damage on every hit. More STR and stronger weapons make this pay off.
4) The Hierophant - Recharges your Crystals and Runes where there is no place to rest.
11) The Protector - 10% less damage taken. Mêlée fighter's best friend.
5) The Warder - Makes your Rune spells more effective (Anti-Magic Shield etc.)
6) The Noble
7) The Astrologer - Makes your Celestial spells more effective (protection from fire etc. - much needed).
8) The Justiciar - More damage against undead, and in my experience, also effective against demons. (Seems to affect everything the Dispel Evil spell affects.)
9) Fool of Fortune - Better Luck landing critical hits and finding treasure. You could take this earlier, it's usually the one I start out with.
10) The Eagle

While I wouldn't change the list of Heraldries, you might change the order in which you select them.

Remember that gear and jewellery will give you boosts as well.

Well, that's it for today, I hope this explains things a little better. Remember that DL is different from other games with regard to attributes and skills, don't waste points on skills when you can spend them on attributes.

Cheers,

Wulf

[Wulf]

Another thought:

For someone who has yet to get into the game, the Fighter / Adept / Valkyrie / Paladin / War Witch combination may be a good starting mêlée character. Just because there are some magic abilities in the build doesn't mean it's a typical caster. It's more like a fighter with easy access to all weapons and armour and very good protection.

If your 'preset' combination doesn't work out, you might try this.

[Zanatar]

Wulf: Thank you so much for your replies so far. They have have been an incredible help.
And yes, if I end up not enjoying this build, I will try the War Witch combination you mentioned.

I pretty much knew that I'd have more questions to ask, but rather then ask the way I have been, I'll instead go through what I've done so far in the game, and what my plan is in terms of how I'm going to level up.

If you see any flaws or mistakes , please let me know.

My character so far:

-Human Female Fighter. I threw all my starting points into Int. (which brought it to 21 Int.) I chose your suggestion of Acrobat as my first Heraldry. I only purchased 2 skills to get rid of negative penalties (ie: 1 light weapon and 1 Light Shield.

-I did the chest reload trick on the 1st chest until I got an elven short sword. I've been using this.

-I've taken off all my armor and leveling up at the shacks.

- I'm currently lvl 5, about half way through level 6. As soon as I hit level 6, I will start heading my way to the sewers.

-As I gained points and leveled up, I have been raising my Str, Agi, Dex, and Vit to 20. Right now each of those have hit 20 and I've started raising them past that.

-My Int is now at 25 and I'm trying to get my Str, Agi, Dex and Vit each to 25 as well.

My concerns and questions:

My biggest concern (or confusion is perhaps the better word) is how far do I continue to pump my Int before I start to invest in my skills?

What I was thinking of doing is get my Int to my Tier 3 pre-req level.. so the prereq for Int for the Hatamoto class is: 35.
Should I go even higher? Your saying that the End game Stats for Int should be in the 60-80 range. So should I aim for that first? Before starting to invest in my skills?

As for Str, Agi, Dex and Vit. I was thinking of just getting them to 2nd tier Pre req levels for now, then just pump Int to 35+ ..

I just don't know where to stop pumping Int and when to start on my skills. What's the sweet point? I want to hold out as much as I can to keep pumping Int.. So the cost of my skills are much lower, and thus I'll be saving thousands of points.

I think that's pretty much by biggest indecision at this point.

- Another way I can do it, I guess, is just to get my minimum skills needed to be able to get Paladin and Samurai classes. (no more, no less). And Once I have that I can then concentrate on raising Int to my end game level range, before I start raising my atributes and skills to meet 3rd tier pre-reqs.

Is that a better plan?

- One last question , these 12 bonus points you mention, these always happen? So in being carefull for Strike bug, and you originally telling me that my Dex should NOT be any higher then 40-50 before bonuses (is that what you meant by bonuses? ie: Dex will end up at 40-50 +12.. so 50-62 ? If I decide 50 Dex.. then add +12 bonsus.. is 62 dex safe to avoid Strike bug?
In your last post you mentioend 50-60.(So I'm guesing that number included the +12 bonsus. Correct? And that 60-62 End game Dex is safe for Strike bug?

Once agian thanks as always.
Zanatar.

[Wulf]

Wulf: Thank you so much for your replies so far. They have have been an incredible help.
And yes, if I end up not enjoying this build, I will try the War Witch combination you mentioned.

You're welcome. Dungeon Lords is very different from standard, 'RPG-by-numbers' games in several aspects. (Having to execute certain moves in mêlée is only one of them.)

Human Female Fighter. I threw all my starting points into Int. (which brought it to 21 Int.) I chose your suggestion of Acrobat as my first Heraldry. I only purchased 2 skills to get rid of negative penalties (ie: 1 light weapon and 1 Light Shield.

An alternative would have been to choose Adept as your starting class, as it gives you the chance to start the game using magical weapons. Besides putting every starting point into INT, you could soon spend a single point on Light Pole Arms and Magical Weapons each and use the Goblin Staff that the Goblin Mage at one of the shacks drops with no penalty. That staff has a magical strike and a range of 7' which makes the early game easier, especially when you start levelling up in the shacks. The added reach makes a difference but it's only a nice-to-have, not a need-to-have. The points spent on these level-1 skills shouldn't hurt your 'points-balance'.

On the other hand, starting as a Fighter makes the Weapons and Armour skills much cheaper early on.

I'm currently lvl 5, about half way through level 6. As soon as I hit level 6, I will start heading my way to the sewers.

You might want to level up to level 7 or 8, as the first real dungeon in Fargrove, as well as the Slums district, will require a somewhat sturdy character. For the Slums, collect or buy

Spoiler

Ophelia Wort, Ochre Pollen, Bat Wings, and Scorpion Tails

at the Apothecary. Lots of it. Another way to reach the Curio Shoppe in the Slums is to take the route across the roofs.

Also, do NOT talk to the Mysterious Woman or the man named Taluk right away. And if you fancy the quest given by Deliah Irons at the Curio Shoppe, better be prepared.

Also, you will have to finish the membership quest for the Celestial Order to be able to buy the Protection from Fire / Ice / Petrification Crystals.

As for Str, Agi, Dex and Vit. I was thinking of just getting them to 2nd tier Pre req levels for now, then just pump Int to 35+

...

Another way I can do it, I guess, is just to get my minimum skills needed to be able to get Paladin and Samurai classes. (no more, no less). And Once I have that I can then concentrate on raising Int to my end game level range, before I start raising my attributes and skills to meet 3rd tier pre-reqs.

Sounds like a good idea. Look at 30 - 40 for the time being. To determine when you want to stop raising INT and start spending on skills, keep an eye on the skill costs and the points you have available. Your class(es) play an important part in skill costs, too. The way the game is set up, you'll find that the early skill levels are fairly cheap and don't require a very high INT. It's usually past level 5 that they get expensive.

Importantly, please keep in mind that there is no need to take a non-magic skill (except perhaps Acrobatics and some thieving) above 5 other than to meet requirements. Unless you actually find a Demon Katana and intend to use it, your Medium Weapons skill doesn't need to go up to 12. Keep a close eye on requirements for your classes and the equipment you want to use.

One last question , these 12 bonus points you mention, these always happen? So in being careful for Strike bug, and you originally telling me that my Dex should NOT be any higher than 40-50 before bonuses.

In your last post you mentioned 50-60.(So I'm guessing that number included the +12 bonuses. Correct? And that 60-62 End game Dex is safe for Strike bug?

Once again thanks as always.
Zanatar.

Yes, these bonus points on every attribute always happen, they are part of the game and its story. What I meant to say is that you should NOT raise your DEX above 45 - 48, strictly speaking. The 12-point bonus will be added on top of that by the game, which will give you 57 - 60 END STAT.

Several good and useful items, as well as attack moves, carry hit bonuses, and by keeping the above limit, you'll avoid the Strike Bug and be able to hit things no problem. Incidentally, the different weapon types have different perks, go ahead and try them out.

[Zanatar]

You're welcome. Dungeon Lords is very different from standard, 'RPG-by-numbers' games in several aspects. (Having to execute certain moves in mêlée is only one of them.)

Yes I agree. But so far that has been the reason I have been drawn to this game. I think it's the fact that it's different on many levels that has appealed to me. Especially the class system.

An alternative would have been to choose Adept as your starting class, as it gives you the chance to start the game using magical weapons.

I'll try that if I ever decide to start a new character. But it's too late now as I'm well into now

You might want to level up to level 7 or 8, as the first real dungeon in Fargrove, as well as the Slums district, will require a somewhat sturdy character.

Unfortunately also too late. I'm already in the Abandoned Theatre Basement.
I am currently half way through level 6.

For the Slums, collect or buy

Spoiler

Ophelia Wort, Ochre Pollen, Bat Wings, and Scorpion Tails

at the Apothecary. Lots of it. Another way to reach the Curio Shoppe in the Slums is to take the route across the roofs.

Could you elaborate more on this? What is the reason for needing to bring those ingredients and why lots of them? While I'll likely discover this regardless in the game, but what 's at the Curio Shoppe? Unless this is just a stop I'd need to make regardless , but the fact that your mentioning it implies something more important.

Also, do NOT talk to the Mysterious Woman or the man named Taluk right away.

Also here, if you can elaborate again. Why should we not talk to these npc's right away? I'm guessing through experience of several play through's that your advising this for a good reason. I don't mind spoilers if it's for a good reason.

And if you fancy the quest given by Deliah Irons at the Curio Shoppe, better be prepared.

And if you can bare me asking one more time.. if you can elaborate here again as well Be prepared in what sense? Upgrade my skills and level up a bit before doing this you mean?

Sounds like a good idea. Look at 30 - 40 for the time being. To determine when you want to stop raising INT and start spending on skills, keep an eye on the skill costs and the points you have available.

I think I'm on track so far. As I mentioned I'm half way through lvl 6 and I'm in the Abandoned theatre basement. Trying to make my way to Fargrove for the first time.
My stats thus far are: Str, dex, agi and vit all at 25. My Int is at 35.
I'm likely able to get my Int to 40 before I've even getting my Adept Class.

But my plan is:
-Get Int to 40
- Get Adept class in Fargrove.
Then I'm in a position to start spending points on Skills.

Here's something I'm curious about. Does it matter which I get first? ie: Paladin first, then Samurai? OR Samurai first then Paladin? Does it really matter? I mean the preqs are practically the same for each.
I've already got my attributes at the prereqs for both. It's just the skills I have to get now.

The only advantage I've found is getting Paladin first as it only needs Medium Armor at 3 as a prereq, which Samurai is Medium armor 5. So having Paladin first will make those last 2 levels of Medium armor from 3 to 5 a bit cheaper by having the bonus via Paladin. I think that's pretty much it. Otherwise I don't see any reason to choose one before the other. Is there?

The other thing I was curious about is Honor.
From reading the foums, I've read not to spend points on Honor. That it will go up by doing quests etc. Both Paladin and Samurai require an Honor of 20. Is that hard to reach by just doing quests Or should I be boosting honor using my points instead? Because as of right now, my honor has not moved. I have not put any points into it either. My honor stat is at the default of 10 (which you start with as well).

Importantly, please keep in mind that there is no need to take a non-magic skill (except perhaps Acrobatics and some thieving) above 5 other than to meet requirements.

Yes well I've been hesitant in spending any points here at all in fact. I've been putting everything into Atributes so far. I guess once my Int is at 40 and once I've got my pre-reqs for Paladin and Samurai, then I could consider getting some Acrobatics. I'm not sure about thieving skills. Not sure I'd ever use it.. But is it really needed?

Repair is another. I am not sure if I should take this? Or should I just get everything repaired at shops? I've yet to visit my first shop in the game, so I don't know if that's an expensive route to take vs spending the points on the repair skill instead.

Unless you actually find a Demon Katana and intend to use it, your Medium Weapons skill doesn't need to go up to 12. Keep a close eye on requirements for your classes and the equipment you want to use.

See this is a bit problematic. You've an advantage there, in that you've played through the game likely several times. I've looked at the weapon lists but it's not really helpful in knowing where or when in the game you'll likely come across them. So I guess the best bet is to wait to see what I do end up finding, before pumping any weapon skill up to far.
I'll need to aim for Hatamoto prereqs anyway, which will bring medium weapons to 10. But I'm not going to even do that until my Int is at my end game stat.
Unless you see a flaw in this thinking?

Several good and useful items, as well as attack moves, carry hit bonuses, and by keeping the above limit, you'll avoid the Strike Bug and be able to hit things no problem. Incidentally, the different weapon types have different perks, go ahead and try them out.

Ok I understand everything you've said on the strike bug. I'll be sure not to raise dex any higher above those limits.

Concerning the different weapon types. What kind of perks do you mean? I'm limited to light and medium weapons and I think heavy later on (once I get Hatamoto class) . No polerarms either. I'm guess I'll mainly be using blades. ie: Daggers, swords, katana's, etc.

Once again Wulf thank you. I really do appreciate all the time you've spent (and still more to come), in replying to my questions. And as I've mentioned, it's beyond helpful and has really enhanced my play experience so far.

Thanks,
Zanatar.

[Wulf]

Slums --- ingredients --- Curio Shoppe --- Deliah Irons & her quest --- Mysterious Woman & Taluk

The slums of Fargrove are different in the Collector's Edition (a.k.a. 1.5 / CE) in that they produce a constant stream of thieves chasing you. The ingredients mentioned can be used to create a Nether spell to keep them at bay temporarily. An alternative, less efficient spell could be made using

Spoiler

Grinnich Weed, Mandrake Root, Ochre Pollen, and Snake Skin

.

Entering the slums is only required for Rogue characters, everyone else can give it a miss.

The Curio Shoppe is the guild headquarters of the Guild of Mystery with Deliah Irons leading Fargrove operations.

Deliah's quest is a must only for Rogues but other professions can take it on, too - they simply won't become guild members. It's fairly difficult in CE, especially if you're new to the game. (You could check the walkthrough for 'Custard Mansion CE'.)

The Mysterious Woman and Taluk are part of another quest which also takes place in the slums - amid respawning thieves - and to finish this quest you need to retrieve a certain item after killing the tough quest boss which may be difficult. This quest is best saved for a stronger character, perhaps when you return to Fargrove after you've been through Arindale.

But my plan is:
- Get Int to 40
- Get Adept class in Fargrove.
Then I'm in a position to start spending points on Skills.

Sounds fine. You'll only receive your second first tier class after the first time you're able to leave Fargrove; every character is limited to their starting class for that first stretch of the game.

Here's something I'm curious about. Does it matter which I get first? ie: Paladin first, then Samurai? OR Samurai first then Paladin? Does it really matter? I mean the preqs are practically the same for each.
I've already got my attributes at the prereqs for both. It's just the skills I have to get now.

You haven't got much of a choice in that matter: You'll want to get as many classes as soon as possible but all Eastern classes (and only those) require you to finish the entire 'Arindale leg' of the game before they become available. You'll more than likely be a Paladin before that.

The other thing I was curious about is Honor.
From reading the forums, I've read not to spend points on Honor. That it will go up by doing quests etc. Both Paladin and Samurai require an Honor of 20. Is that hard to reach by just doing quests Or should I be boosting honor using my points instead? Because as of right now, my honor has not moved. I have not put any points into it either. My honor stat is at the default of 10 (which you start with as well).

In CE, most quests give your Honour a boost anywhere between 1 and 5 points; you'll likely be at 20 by the time you can apply to become a Paladin.

Athletics --- Thieving --- Repair

Sorry, I keep saying 'Acrobatics' instead of 'Athletics'. Itisamystery

You'll need a minimum of 4 in Athletics in order to do backflips, either to escape onto a rock or a ledge, or to actively climb around the roofs of Fargrove or the mountains. Athletics also determine how well you can drop down from a height, 5 points are no luxury there.

None of the classes you've selected give you a bonus to Athletics, so only your INT determines the cost.

If you want to enter Fargrove via the mountains rather than the sewers (with a possible future character), you'll need to spend 4 points on Athletics to be able to climb out of the Northern Valley. (I posted a way out for 1.4 that doesn't require these 4 points for backflips but the terrain has been changed in 1.5, backflips are a must in almost all climbing places.)

The Thieving skills allow you to loot chests more easily: with no thieving skills at all, you need to force them all open, and that can be dangerous when you spring a trap.

Once you've got sufficient money by bartering spells (NOT Nether spells) back and forth, paying for repairs shouldn't pose much of a problem, but it may be handy to be able to fix something to prevent its destruction when there's no shop anywhere near. It's another nice-to-have.

See this is a bit problematic. You've an advantage there, in that you've played through the game likely several times. I've looked at the weapon lists but it's not really helpful in knowing where or when in the game you'll likely come across them. So I guess the best bet is to wait to see what I do end up finding, before pumping any weapon skill up too far.
I'll need to aim for Hatamoto prereqs anyway, which will bring medium weapons to 10. But I'm not going to even do that until my Int is at my end game stat. Unless you see a flaw in this thinking?

With a weapon or armour skill at 10, there's hardly a reason to go any higher, the items that require a skill above 10 are scarce and few; waiting until you find one of them is definitely a sound approach.

From how I perceive the gameplay, passing items on from one character to another via multiplayer is part of it. During a playthrough, you'll almost inevitably find items that would have been useful for a low-level character but which, due to the game's layout, that character won't find in time.

Concerning the different weapon types. What kind of perks do you mean? I'm limited to light and medium weapons and I think heavy later on (once I get Hatamoto class) . No pole arms either. I'm guess I'll mainly be using blades. ie: Daggers, swords, katanas, etc.

Once again Wulf thank you. I really do appreciate all the time you've spent (and still more to come), in replying to my questions. And as I've mentioned, it's beyond helpful and has really enhanced my play experience so far.

Thanks,
Zanatar.

Again, you're welcome. The different weapon types have different attack animations that reflect the different properties that are available at skill level 5. Deliberately moving or jumping and attacking triggers special attacks and a 'finishing blow' that does additional damage. Depending on the situation you're in, and the enemies at hand, different weapon types have different advantages / drawbacks. Getting the hang of the different attacks will take a while but it's worth the trouble.

Remember that during the finishing blow animation, you can still pivot your character to direct the force of that blow at a different opponent.

There is no 'best weapon', looking through the forum will show you that everyone has their favourites. Since you are heading for the Light Dual Wield, you should practice the round attack this skill offers.

Some heavy as well as blunt weapons (including light and medium blunt weapons) have a form of knock-back built in, a weaker version of the Crushing Blow. Pole arms have superior range and a jabbing attack that can be used for Moonbeast farming on the shore. Every type has its own 'speciality' for you to find out.

It took me several characters to find out about all those different attacks, and how to use them. If you want to do this with a single character, you'll need to practice a lot as soon as you find a given weapon type and have the according skill at 5.

Cheers,
Wulf

[Wulf]

Sorry, I made a mistake about the point in the game when you can become a Samurai (or any other Eastern class): All you need to do is fulfill the House of Dragon quest you are given in Fargrove.

I just checked the walk-through and the puzzle is solved: In 1.4, you need to finish the House of Tiger quest, in 1.5 it's the House of Dragon quest you need to fulfill. I'm currently on my first Imperial in 1.5 (I only got 1.5 for Christmas) and noticed the difference so I thought I'd better correct myself.

Still, the second tier quests are fairly similar and not far apart on the map, you may just complete them one after another as soon as you get to Arindale.

You can receive both quests in Arindale.

About Honour: Attribute cost is determined by your character only, INT or class don't enter into it. If you want to spent any points on Honour at all (perhaps 5?), you'd best spend them before you are awarded Honour points from quests, as the cost will only go up.