RPG guy (sorta) Returns

[RPGguy]

Hello everyone. A few years ago I showed up as a complete CPRG n00b, stating my intent to finally try BG2 to see what all the fuss was about.

I have travelled the planes since then, and wanted to share my experience. Before I do so...

*KNOW* that I am a power gamer by nature.
*KNOW* that I had no prior XP with D&D rules, lore
*KNOW* that when I play these games, I focus on charting out my character's ascension. So keep this profile in mind when reading the following *opinion*

I'll give you my summary now. There is simply nothing better than the BG2/TOB experience from the so-called 'Golden Age' of CPRGs.

I started with a couple of run-throughs of BG2/TOB, a sorcerer each time. As a n00b, I was thoroughly overwhelmed with the intricacies of dual classing vs. multiclassing. And the implementation of the 2nd Edition rules pertaining to magic use was beyond complicated. I was also besieged by all of the various patches and mods available. But I managed.

After a few months of BG-burnout, I got the itch again. Wanted to see if BG2 was really the end-all, be-all from that era. So over the next year or so, I meticulously plowed through the NWN series, including all of the expansion material. All I remember from NWN was how boring it was and how you could only have one sidekick. Finished it regardless because I am hard core ocd. NWN2 had a much better adventure to it but the engine was a disaster and way too many quest bugs, even after patching. I also found that 3rd edition D&D is considerably dumbed-down and 3.5 is even worse. The whole 'feat' system has been taken to absurd levels.

After finishing the whole NWN Soul Eater experience, I craved the Infinity engine again. Despite it's limitations compared to the modern standard, it just oooo does so many things right. So I plowed through the Icewind Dale series. All of it. It was decent but party dynamics were flat. The story was flat. Too many recycled monster classes in the sequel. And very heavily combat focused, which isn't necessarily bad but (again) with 3.5 edition, the magic system is dumbed down so the ways to approach conflict are much more limited.

After experimenting with some fringe titles based on recommendations from others, I realized that the harder I searched the farther away I was traveling from greatness. Everything I played had a critical flaw and left me wanting. The more I played, the more adventures I finished, feeling disappointed and depressed (from a gamer standpoint) each time.

So it was time to turn to Planescape Torment...which I just finished a couple of hours ago, motivating me to type all this out. PST came with a lot of hype and some lofty expectations. I did a good job of avoiding spoilers these last few years. All I knew about it was it involved copious amounts of reading (it's not that bad) and what was generally regarded as one bad@ss story. There was no way it could live up to the hype and it didn't. Don't get me wrong, it is excellent but there are some things that foul it:

***POSSIBLE SPOILERS***





-the magic system is horrible. and playing as a fighter is boring.

-many of the environments outide of Sigil just fall flat compared the complexity of the Hive and all of it's characters/quests. Too many places where there is no point of the map other than to travel from one side to the other...just to click on something so you can advance the plot, killing some baddies on the way. So the last third of the game felt like a chore, although there were some superb exceptions in these areas

-too much use of areas with monsters that simply re-spawn over and over again. zzzz

-it took 98% of the game for my character to gain 6 levels of fighter and 18 levels of mage. And then, during the last few maps, i flew to level 28. Problem is, you get about 30 seconds (or in some cases zero seconds) to feel and use this new power. The power gamer in me wept.

-the ending is a let down. The journey of The Nameless One is so superb, and the NPCs are so integrated to his quest, that the answers you get at the end just don't match the intensity of the build up. Not even close.

Don't get me wrong, PST is an excellent title and I highly recommend it regardless. It is way too interesting to never play, at least once in your gaming lifetime. And it is easily the second best CPRG I've played (easily!!!). But bottom line is, nothing does EVERYTHING as well as BG2/TOB.

So I'm going to finish this post with a list of things to cherish about this game:

1. Based on my experience/journey, unrivaled character development options..and the !!!opportunity to fully exercise your creations!!!

2. Complex magic system both to use and field against by those who use it against you. Many, many encounters that you can spend hours just figuring out how to approach it. 2nd edition D&D is hard core and you will miss it. Simulacrums, spell chains and sequencers, the 'true sight' element...it never gets any better than this.

3. Who else gives you epic level encounters to tackle out of the gate? No one. That is truly special, trust me.

4. The party dynamic, nothing comes close.

5. The ability to fully understand combat through the dialogue window. My favorite thing about the Infinity Engine is the intelligence you can extract during combat (see how this relates to point 1 above). There is someone who posts here by the handle Crenshinibon. The guy is a freak/master of of studying and implementing the numbers. Point is that BG2/TOB has such combat depth and intricacies that you can almost create a field of study on it. Doubt me? Search these forums for some of his posts.

6. No game/series I'm come across does a better job of starting you out as a piece of dung and transforming you into a god.

Thanks for listening. Felt like sharing. Now, it's time to see what Dragon Age Origins is all about. It's supposed to be the spiritual successor to BG but I am skeptical.

[Stworca]

I cannot disagree with you, kind sir, and to be quite honest i was going to write a similiar text in nearest future, for i recently went through NwN2 : Storm of Zehir.

My adventure with cRPG games started with Icewind Dale 1. Prior to that i only faced arcade games, survival horrors and FPP shooters.. On playstation.
It was quite an experience, very tough one too. With brand new elements like -storyline-, spells (huge variety of them!), character leveling up, it took me few painfull days to get through this game and return to Easthaven (without using pause, because i did not know you can do such thing.) Icewind Dale quickly became one of my favourite games.

It changed however when i bought ToEE, and was introduced to system so rich, and with such potential that it blew my mind. Icewind Dale turned into a hack and slash game in my eyes, after i experienced the evil lurking beneath abadoned temple. It was however far too short to be enough. Your journey ended before it even began, and this forced me to look for another tasty meal.

Baldurs Gate 2.

Its a true pearl amongst garbage. For the first hour i was praising the pause game (afterwards i learned that You could do so too in IWD.. Lets.. skip the topic) i cannot pick the right words to describe how great the game is. Let's just say that i finished it far too many times, with far too many differend characters, installed far too many mods and i can clearly see why there are still newer and newer fan made mods for BG2.

Afterwards i tried IWD2, to see what has changed since its prequel, and the linear story with absolutely marginal choices (even those are rare) allowed me to drop the game after beating it once. 'Tis a diablo with full party, nothing more. You couldn't be evil in any way, you couldn't disagree with anyone, you couldn't kill most of the NPCs cause it would automaticly screw you. A disaster. (but i encourage everyone to play it once. You may enjoy it).

Next on my list was NWN2 which was a borring straight forward walk in a park. It -had- more side quests then IWD for sure, but there was no dynamics at all, and what annoyed me the most was the fact, that you HAD TO take EVERY SINGLE NPC with you. It wasn't that bad till i encountered Groblar.. Gnob.. the bard, whom i wanted to slay.. But any option that you pick will lead to taking him with you.
What annoyed me is, that even tho there were absolutely no good reasons to continue the quest after arriving to Neverwinter (drop the Shard to Xan, and get back home, plundering Highcliff on the way back!). You had to. I also couldn't stop to wonder why in the hell am i doing some trivial quests to get into the BlackLake District, while my character WOULD just blast his way through the gates. You cannot. Its linear to the point where its painfull to play the game.
Or rather.. If you don't wish to just follow the storyline, doing exactly what the devs wanted you to do, its painfull. As long as you dont mind, the game can be quite nice. What i liked was keep building, and the choices you could make in the last chapter of the game. It wasn't enough.

Then i installed MoTB, and i have to say that its much better than the vanilla Nwn2. You had a reason to do things. A huge bloody reason! and, most importantly, you COULD make decisions in there. You could kill your companions (well, most of them at least) You could kill most creatures, or save them. Companion influence had a reason too!

Afterwards i faced Morrowind, and the freedom you have there was overwhelming. The side quests are exciting... and the journal is 1500 pages long if you discover everything! A truly great game, but i missed D&D engine.

On the way to Storm of Zehir i played many, many more RPGs. Arcanum, Kotor, Oblivion, Nwn1, Evil Islands (a funny one) Fallout series and more. But their impact on me was insignificant, and those cannot be compared to BG2.

Except for Storm of Zehir.. Or so i thought.
Storm of Zehir changes Nwn2 into a game it SHOULD've been. Don't get me wrong here, it IS linear even tho it may not seem so. But You -can- drop the main storyline at any time and do side quests. You wander around the world, facing random encounters, finding treasures, and later on you can even start trading resources between cities! Also the crafting in this game is something you cannot miss.
However.. You -have to- roam the plains and do side quest in order to gain levels high enough to survive in later chapters. You -have to- craft in order to have realy nice weapons. This, and the very limited amount of side quests (and the fact that most cities have only a tavern with one NPC..) + screwed up crafting for Warlocks, are huge minuses. It is better than Nwn in every way (except length) but it cannot compete with ToEE or BG2.

Now im in the same position as you, on my way to try Dragon Age : Origins

[RPGguy]

Thanks for your response Stworca.

Listening to you own tale was interesting in that, we both came to the same conclusion but disliked these other titles for different reasons.

I am upset that companies like Black Isle couldn't make money and that bad companies like Atari hold critical licenses but just sit on them. While I own both an Xbox 360 and PS3, I am angry how games are mass produced for consoles and targeted at 14 year olds and PC gamers are getting the shaft.

(grumble, grumble)

When I hit retirement age, I know what I am going to do with my time. I am going to buy a cheap Infinity engine license, a cheap 2nd Edition D&D license. I am going to write, design and build Buldur's Gate 3. I don't care if it takes me 15 years. I don't care if people want to see BG3. I'm going to do it!!!! haha

[Edar Macilrille]

A year or two back I made a similar post and observation to yours, though my experience in Comp RPG is limited to this series, NWN and IWD I + II.

However RPGguy, be glad you are not a historian looking for Comp strategy games. RTW with Roman Ninjas, flaming pigs, Urban "Waffen SS" cohorts and Egyptians from 1500 BC in 250 BC definately caters to the 12 YO- but does an OK job of telling them about Rome, just not me...

Well... in fact be sad, for RTW has Europa Barbarorum where the EB Team has implemented all the historical content that The Creative Assembly refused when given for free- making the Team do their own strictly historical mod...

My point is, we live in a world where the lowest common denominator is the rule, films, books, games... everywhere... just be glad that there are a few nuggets like BG series and EB in games, Moon, Stalingrad, The Duelists and Bladerunner in films, Etc. The way our society is going I predict that our grandchildren will have no such nuggets :-(

[bergustoo]

I hope you don't mind a new guy butting in.

I'm in complete agreement with everything you've pointed out, but the difficulty of last third or so of the game compared with the power level of PCs deserves special mention.

I leveled up as a mage from the moment I was allowed to train as one, but IIRC Dakkon and I literally killed the last boss in hand-to-hand combat, using low-level spells to soften him up a little. It's an incredible game, but combat is nearly nonexistent.

At the risk of sounding cheesy, I'd say that's one of the most impressive things about the game, IMO. It doesn't need painfully difficult fights or overpowered spells and items to be an interesting game. The story and characters alone make it an awesome experience.

On the other hand, IWD II is pure combat, but frankly it's not very challenging either. I never finished Heart of Fury mode because it was hardly any more difficult than the first time through. The extra HP and attack rolls of the enemies weren't a big enough help to deal with my level God-knows-what party, and my characters were far from perfect. It's a great game, don't get me wrong. In fact, it's the first Bioware DnD game I finished. It just doesn't quite stand up to the Baldur's Gate series or Planescape.

[RPGguy]

It doesn't need painfully difficult fights or overpowered spells and items to be an interesting game. The story and characters alone make it an awesome experience.

Thanks for chiming in!

Agree, Planescape Torment was an awesome experience. But let me pose a question to you...with the combat meaning almost nothing in the game, what makes it a 'game' rather than...say...an interactive graphic novel...where you get to each new chapter by clicking 'talk' on the right NPCs in the right order???

At what point does it stop being a 'game'? The choice of character (mage/fighter/thief) means nothing. And you can beat the final boss with no weapons or by simply talking to him.

BG2's combat is unrivaled, and very meaningful to the experience IMO. And while the story/setting isn't as good as PST, it's pretty damn good. So overall, I think BG2/ToB has to be the finest thing I've come across. Ever.

[dragon wench]

Hmm...

I played both BG2 and PS:T around the time they were both released.. and during the long game drought that followed I returned to them repeatedly, only occasionally relieved by forays into (a very heavily modded) Morrowind.

I was of the view that gems such as these were no longer made... and while I do consider BG2 and PS:T to be one-of-a-kind experiences, I feel that The Witcher and Dragon Age are worthy successors to these titles..

However, I got side-tracked there. What I really wanted to say is that I have often had trouble deciding which I prefer.. BG2 or PS:T? Ultimately, the former captured my heart in many ways; it also led me to Game Banshee, something I've never regretted. In terms of a well-rounded game that combines good writing/story, interesting NPCs and enjoyable combat all in one package, it's difficult to beat.
However, I believe PS:T to be the superior title. It is original in terms of its inhabitants, not the usual elves, dwarves, humans, halflings, gnomes etc. The writing and incredible depth of story are beyond amazing...
Is it a game instead of an interactive novel? Yes, it is. You just have to accept that it breaks the usual molds and you need to redefine your previously held perceptions of what a game is or should be.
Moreover, all games, and especially RPGs or the Adventure genre, are in essence interactive stories. It's simply that PS:T focuses more blatantly on story-telling than most others. And, in my view, it does so brilliantly.

[RPGguy]

I just feel really let down by the ending phases of PST which didn't match (or exceed) the intensity of the build up.

Dragon Wench, you talk about how it smashed D&D conventions in a refreshing way, then why not have the Nameless One start eroding in power, once he arrives at the negative material plane...with the intensity of his loss mirroring his physical approach to the The Transcendent One? Seems much more interesting with rich possibilities.

Since there is so much focus on the relationships you've made throughout PST, have *them* assume critical assistance (or vengeful interference) as you inch towards your mortality...with the decisions you've made throughout, defining their willingness or ability to assist.

TNO is nearing the end of a terrible journey and he should be disintegrating, the closer he gets. He is fighting for death, final rest. It could have been SO much more tragic and emotionally draining of an ending.

(and if you didn't develop your relationships with others properly, make it entirely possible that TNO fails utterly in his quest [where he simply wakes up in the morgue again, not remembering anything], forcing the player to replay and reinvest in those encounters in a different way)

:2 cents

[bergustoo]

There are so many different ways to complete the storyline and enough interesting, optional content that I consistently felt like I was playing a game as often as I was reading. You could technically fight your way through much of Planescape instead of talking.

That's just comparing it to writing on paper; if you expand the definition of a novel to include a story in which the reader could choose the sequence of events and the outcome, the distinction is less clear. I think the main difference between that and Planescape is the ability to manipulate non-story elements such as equipment, appearance, and the exact position of the characters in the environment, as well as the option to fight, in which case there are usually no words during rounds.

[Sayne]

This is a great conversation.

RPGguy I agree with your analysis of BG2, it is an unparalleled masterpiece.

You said that you were moving on to Dragon Age. DA is good, the story is rich and the characters and their interactions are very entertaining. Some of the party members rival the character development from BG and BG2 party members. The sidequests, however, are generally hollow and non-party NPCs just stand around with blank expressions on their faces waiting to be talked to (this is fixed with a great mod from DAnexus). I also don't particularly care for the magic system, spells are generally weak and require far too many castings of a particular spell to actually kill anything. That said, it's still better than most games you'll find today, and is definitely worth playing.

That out of the way, I wholeheartedly recommend The Witcher. The storytelling is excellent. NPCs are interesting and the major ones are quite well developed. The art direction and immersiveness of the cities is superb. You are rather restricted in how you develop your character, but there is some significant customization that can be done, which is only expanded by the Flash mod and Full Combat Rebalaning (or whatever it's called). While it may not be quite as good as BG2, I consider it one of the best, if not the best, classic RPG released since BG2.

[Stworca]

@ Sayne

Don't forget level scalling in DA, which is never a good thing

[Sayne]

@ Sayne

Don't forget level scalling in DA, which is never a good thing

You're right, I did forget about DA's enemy scaling (I assume that's what you mean).

DA's scaling wasn't as bad as, say, Oblivion. I consider Oblivion unplayable without something like Oscuro's Overhaul to remove the ridiculous enemy scaling. I consider DA's level scaling kind of irritating, but not awful. The game encourages you to complete whole zones in one go, rather than jumping around, and since it doesn't force you to do any particular area first, I guess some level of scaling makes sense.

BG2 had some level scaling of things like random encounters (which is a good thing, because some of the harder random encounters can be really nasty, especially with mods).

[RPGguy]

Thanks for the comments Sayne. For now, I am going to pass on DA:O.

I have read about the things people dislike about DA:O and, frankly, some of those are real deal-breakers for me (like level-scaling enemies, which I despise)

I am still planning to play it but not for another year or two. My hope is that by then, all of the expansion material will have been released and there will be a nice range of MOD options for me to craft an install configuration that will give me more of an epic, less flawed experience that I was hoping for before the DA:O reviews started filtering out.

In the meantime, I will keep playing the BG saga

[Sykar]

PS:T is superior in several ways to BG 2.
*SPOILER ALERT!*

1.) You have much more options to talk rather fight your way through. You can even 'win' the last fight without a single swing or spell if you choose the right dialogue options and got high enough score in charisma and wisdom

2.) Wisdom, Charsima and Intelligence are all equally important especially regarding earning exp and getting most out of dialogues. You can of course play a brute force char as well and beat the game but I consider this a bit boring in general though. But the option exists.

3.) RPGguy complained that Melees are boring but the same is true for BG 2 unless you reach ToB HLAs which takes a long time melees are reduced to autoattack and move. Thieves can do a bit more with backstab and outside of combat

4.) The levels and according quests were very well made. Just thinking of stuff like the players tomb in drowned nations, player maze, Curst, Borthel of Intelectual Lust, Sensate HQ and the experience stones.

5.) Story is much more complex overall and more personal. The main character is much more refined than the main character in Finding out about your previous incarnations and what they have done is priceless.

6.) Alignment shifts. Your alignment starts at true neutral and changes according to the actions you take. Sadly there aren't many consequences for that but I think that your alignmet representing your actual play is much better than just a fixed alignment which never changes like it did in BG series.
I know that you can abuse some dialogues to change it into something totally wrong but abusing glitches / bugs are always a choice of the player.

7.) Universe is much more diverse and a lot of absurd things exist here. For example if you lie often enough about your name and tell people you are 'ADHAN' later in the game an 'ADHAN' even appears just because of your imagination.

8.) Stats gain lets you customize the Nameless One to a much higher degree than any other 2nd Edition game character.

9.) I thought the ending was epic.
You regain your mortality and you are sent to hell for the many many crimes you committed and he readily accepts that fate going straight into the Blood Wars.
The answer to 'What can change the nature of a man' cannot be answered wrongly or rightly, only personally. The question is a centerpiece of the game.

10.) You can join or not join various guilds and it even affects some quests/items/information you can get.

11.) Some of the best party banter ever. Morte's banter beats Jans even imho.

12.) Weirdest party ever. A floating skull? A man of living flame, forever burning? A concsious armor? A rogue Modron? Tiefling? Succubus? A Githzerai?
Come that alone is awesome.

The bad:

1.) A lot less spells and less complex magic system as mentioned already
2.) Loads of texts. If you do not enjoy reading big novels this game is not for you.
3.) Bit short for my taste.

[Monks]

was randomly browsing this forum as i do from time to time when found this little post. first of all. i completly agree that bg2 IS and will be for a very long time, one of the finest made games in the world. since DA is currently release, ill put in some comment on that aswell although i find DA a great, and interesting game, i still think, even though bg2, is what? 10y older than DA, outclasses it.

flaws that DA have compared to BG2.
to easy. played it solo. insane with almost any char avaible. its simply to easy to go trough. put the same cd. on polyjuices would prop fix that though

flawed final fight, come on. compare amelisan to the archdemon fight..... way way not compareable.

missing proper "choices". my sorc/wizzard in bg2. was so much more interesting to play than DA.

missing a proper cam angel for micromanegement, bg2 view is perfect. you can move how you want. really manage the chars. however in DA the "mode" where you should be able to play the same style is flawed, you simply lose to much "oversight" of the surroundings in that mode.

sure i could bring up some more pointers if i wanted to

but i truly salute the people that made bg2. and the game in itself. imo, it is, and properly for the next 20-30 years be the pinical of the game industry. not in the graphics, but in everything else, atm i think im at around 20+ playthroughs in bg2/tob (some modded ofc) currently working on full tactics/accension insane difficulty and really "or maybe not" looking forward to jonbon and amelisan.

anyways some of my words for the game so for the developers of this game, be freaking proud, the rest of us, lets try to make the next generation players not miss out for atleast 1 playthrough