Flemeth and Guilt? (spoilers!)

[dragon wench]

So I finally got around to confronting Flemeth... There was nothing really forcing me to do so; I have a female PC and the only real gains were XP, a nice robe for Morrigan and a fun fight.

Now, I realise there's something abhorrent about the way Flemeth extends her life.. However, assuming her back-story is accurate, you can understand, in a sense, how experience has shaped her.
Further, though she was likely guided by her own motivations, she did rescue my PC and Alistair from atop the tower...
I think there's a certain moral ambiguity here, for one, Morrigan, who requests you kill Flemeth, isn't exactly a paragon of virtue herself.

All of that to say, I felt a certain guilt at killing Flemeth. Has this happened to anybody else, or am I just weird?

Besides, I find Flemeth a vaguely likable old bat..

[EvilEdwin]

Flemeth has her own reasons for rescuing the PC, and they arn't entirely altrustic. You'll know what I mean when you finish the game.

If it makes you feel any better, Morrigan herself expresses doubt as to whether Flemeth is truely dead!

[Scottg]

I went through the various lines of dialog several times, to see different outcomes.

What I eventually came up with is this:

The story is bogus. Morrigan want's out from under control of Flemeth, like any teen from their parents, and *thinks* the way to do this (..based largely on the way she is raised) is to kill Flemeth, or rather cowardly: have Flemeth killed (..though cunning, and well within what she was taught by her mother).

Of course because of the Grimoir and other *tales* (as specifically mentioned by Flemeth herself once you confront her), it gives Morrigan the "evidence" she needs, and in the way she needs it to have her mother killed.

The fact is you don't need to kill Flemeth, and the only significantly different result from killing her is a bit of experience and the occasional skin drop (..which may have more to do with character level than anything else). You still get the robes, and the spell book.

On the other hand if it is *not* bogus then it may have certain consequences later. Specifically Morrigan trying to repeat what Flemeth apparently has previously accomplished - subsuming her daughter. In this case however (..with the grimoir-correct spell book that works and only with certain actions taken to save your character), the attempt would be to subsume the power of an old god. :devil:

It's one of the more interesting side stories in the game. Resolution is however nearly non-exisistent, but perhaps that's by-design (for an up-coming expansion).

One of the things I liked best about it was also one of the things I like least about the game: ..in this case Wynn's response (assuming she is in your party when confronting Flemeth).

Wynn actually questions her tirade against "abominations" - which is excellent. The problem however is that there is no "follow through". While the dialog provides some question, the result is the same: happy to kill, unhappy if you don't. In other words the game provides a "tease" of morality, but stops there and gives you the same old outcome. What's worse of course is that Wynn is created to represent wisdom and morality, but without *fully* questioning the basis (or source of) the advice she gives - it comes-off sounding like cardboard platitudes.

[Scottg]

Flemeth has her own reasons for rescuing the PC, and they arn't entirely altrustic. You'll know what I mean when you finish the game.

If it makes you feel any better, Morrigan herself expresses doubt as to whether Flemeth is truely dead!

Flemeth herself states this upfront after saving you. Of course she gives *a* reason, and a truthful one at that, though not *the* reason (..or not the major reason).


Morrigan has to express that doubt, it's part of the "choose A or B" path-line ending with virtually the same outcome. This sort of story-scripting is seen in many other areas as well, where the end-result is the same (..even if the lines seem a little "off"). (..the whole Dwarf Noble Origin story is riddled with this sort of scripting.)

[GoldDragon]

Of course, accepting the Quest, yet not doing anything about it, is also an option, you know. With no real (un-bugged) effect upon the game's outcome that I can tell.

I have Killed Flemeth once, in 6 characters.

Noblewoman Warrior kept her word.

The Mages (2 of them) decided that confronting Flemeth would be a bad Idea (Morrigan's line "The more powerful the Daughter, the easier it is to ... settle in...") and never returned to the Kocari Wilds.

City Elf Forgot to do so (oops), and now never will (Guess which ending).

Dalish Elf meant to do so afterwards, but was called off for other duties.

Current Char (another Noblewoman) will do so, but later.

[Scottg]

(Morrigan's line "The more powerful the Daughter, the easier it is to ... settle in...")

I remember that line as well. The thing is, it doesn't make any sense. Or rather..

It's a logical excuse for Morrigan.. "i.e. I'm more powerful now, so I"m more susceptible to being subsumed - therefor you need to kill her without me ..so (unsaid)..I don't have to do it myself".

But it is illogical with respect to the games history/mechanics on abominations. The game is basically:

Touch the Fad and you are susceptible, enter the Fad and it's a constant struggle. This is regardless of the power you possess. Was Conner especially powerful/skilled before being subsumed? Me thinks not, rather it was his naivete with making "deals". Was Magi initiation done before becoming a novice, or at the start of becoming a novice? No. The whole reason for "thrusting" the character into the Fade was to see if they would succumb, and if having done so -with the ability to kill them before they became to powerful. (i.e. a weak low-talent mage, abomination or not, is a LOT easier to kill than a full mage - and the Templars state this upfront.)

In fact the whole Circle Mages Quest group basically refutes such a statement (..at least as Morrigan's statement was directed). The stronger the Mage the longer they seemed to be able to "hold-out" (i.e. Irving).

On the other hand "settle in" could be a half-truth, either intended or not by Morrigan. It could be that it references something more along the lines of "integration", and not the ease of which it is to be subsumed. (..and this *is* shown and stated elsewhere, ex. Uldred is more powerful than the others, better "integrated".)

Of course all of the above is assuming that the story writers thought that far..

[Bloodstalker]

No guilt here. Never liked the old bat anyway.

Plus, it was the quickest way to make Morrigan happy that I could think of. And making her happy was very important to my Warden at the time. Call it a character flaw.

[Nightmare]

No guilt here. Never liked the old bat anyway.

Plus, it was the quickest way to make Morrigan happy that I could think of. And making her happy was very important to my Warden at the time. Call it a character flaw.

Is it right for me to be afraid that I essentially did the same thing in the game as BS?

[Mandalorianx]

at first i didnt want to do it, but later i did it.
when you think of how many of her doughter she have taken, i think its was the right thing to do to. even if she did save you, since you do what se ask you to do later anyway.

[GoldDragon]

I remember that line as well. The thing is, it doesn't make any sense. Or rather..

It's a logical excuse for Morrigan.. "i.e. I'm more powerful now, so I"m more susceptible to being subsumed - therefor you need to kill her without me ..so (unsaid)..I don't have to do it myself".

Perhaps, but still.... one can't read either tome in-game, so all we have to go by is what Morrigan says. Is she lying? Perhaps (She would do so to get her way, I agree), but what if she's telling the truth? My Mage wasn't willing to test it out.

Then again... would the Taint of the Darkspawn protect mages? Flemeth definitely knows of it, and I doubt she'd be comfortable...... Not to mention an alternative way to "Protect" Morrigan....:mischief:

[fable]

No guilt here. Never liked the old bat anyway.

Plus, it was the quickest way to make Morrigan happy that I could think of. And making her happy was very important to my Warden at the time. Call it a character flaw.

But you could make her just as happy by telling her Flemeth was dead, and bringing her the book. Either could be lying, Morrigan or Flemeth. They have a very similar, dry, oblique method of response that leaves plenty of room for interpretation. Morrigan, at least, seems to always play to her own main advantage, but Flemeth sounds just as cynical.

I'd hate to be in a poker game with either. Unless they agreed to pay in advance for the coldcuts, that is.

[Scottg]

But you could make her just as happy by telling her Flemeth was dead..

Exactly.

In fact, I'm not sure you even need to do that. ..more or less, "the situation has been resolved, here is your book".

Seems though for Bloodstalker it was more of Garth's situation in Wayne's World.

..something like:

-Kim Bassinger: I need you to kill my husband..
-Garth: ..Um, that would be wrong..
-Kim Bassinger: It's the only way we can be together.
-Garth: ..Um..
-Kim Bassinger: (..fondling Garth)
-Garth: (standing up and shouting): He's a DEAD MAN!

[thantor3]

Is it right for me to be afraid that I essentially did the same thing in the game as BS?

Only if you enjoyed it in the same way he did, closeted in his man cave wearing a nightie.

Personally, there were several times in the game where the character I was playing questioned the course of action that was laid out in adventure. Like was it right to wipe out all the protectors of the Urn of Sacred Ashes, leaving it unguarded to the masses, just to save one man? And while dragon slaying has a history of being a noble pursuit, in the game they are an endangered species who are not doing anything particularly evil. Is is right to kill them merely for sport? There was some remorse after both of these quests.

In terms of Morrigan's quest, my character struggled for a long time with killing someone who had come to the rescue at a critical time, even if there was a hidden agenda. I would have like the ability to look at the grimoire personally or to further cross examine Morrigan. My character didn't trust either mother or daughter but finally reluctantly agreed based on two principle vectors: romantic feelings for Morrigan and how inconvenient it would be to be battling the arch-demon when Flemeth decided to pull something. I have yet to finish the game, so I do not know if I should have just lied to Morrigan or not, but I didn't want any loose ends. Ironically, Wynne got the credit for taking down Flemeth in my first battle with her.

[QuenGalad]

Actually, i think it's bloody cheeky of Morrigan to ask you to solve her biggest problem without even her help, but, spoilers regarding the very ending,
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more importantly, it seems obvious to me her 'offer to save the warden' at the end is just a way of procuring herself with a powerfull enough daughter so she can follow Flemeth's footsteps.
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end of spoilers. Morrigan is a nicely written character, but i dislike the way the game stuffs her down my throat, so she gets no favors from me. Solve your own family disputes, hon.

[fable]

Actually, i think it's bloody cheeky of Morrigan to ask you to solve her biggest problem without even her help, but, spoilers regarding the very ending,

I think it's poor invention. They couldn't come up with a good way of keeping you from bringing three mages to a battle with Flemeth, when spells are the best way of immobilizing her, so they took Morrigan out of the equation by a bit of nonsense.

[GoldDragon]

I think I agree with Fable on this one.

[dragon wench]

I think it's poor invention. They couldn't come up with a good way of keeping you from bringing three mages to a battle with Flemeth, when spells are the best way of immobilizing her, so they took Morrigan out of the equation by a bit of nonsense.

I see your point... Thing is, there are other bosses in the game that are considerably tougher than Flemeth, yet there are no restrictions bringing three mages to those fights.
Besides, the best way of bringing Flemeth down is via ranged weapons, she situates herself on that little hill and essentially doesn't move. Once you figure that out the battle is a piece of cake.

Only if you enjoyed it in the same way he did, closeted in his man cave wearing a nightie.

That's uhm... a really, really disturbing image...

Personally, there were several times in the game where the character I was playing questioned the course of action that was laid out in adventure. Like was it right to wipe out all the protectors of the Urn of Sacred Ashes, leaving it unguarded to the masses, just to save one man? And while dragon slaying has a history of being a noble pursuit, in the game they are an endangered species who are not doing anything particularly evil. Is is right to kill them merely for sport? There was some remorse after both of these quests.

In terms of Morrigan's quest, my character struggled for a long time with killing someone who had come to the rescue at a critical time, even if there was a hidden agenda. I would have like the ability to look at the grimoire personally or to further cross examine Morrigan. My character didn't trust either mother or daughter

Very much my own feelings on all of those quests.
With the sacred ashes, I really wondered if I should kill Genitivi in order to avoid the inevitable consequences of allowing expeditions and pilgrimages. Somehow that seemed as much a desecration as following Kolgrim's "request."

This is one reason I am enjoying this game so much, it's not overtly cut and dried. If we compare it to BG2... there was every reason to slaughter Firkragg; it was a black and white decision that was only influenced by whether or not you were at a high enough level to tackle him.

[fable]

I see your point... Thing is, there are other bosses in the game that are considerably tougher than Flemeth, yet there are no restrictions bringing three mages to those fights.

That's my point. When the battles are tougher still, it doesn't matter that you have three mages. But with Flemeth, the opportunity to freeze her and keep her frozen early on is just too likely, and administer deadly damage quickly. So one of those three mages has to go, and Bioware insures this will happen in an unimaginative way.

I would have like the ability to look at the grimoire personally or to further cross examine Morrigan.

That's why I consider the excuse to get Morrigan out of the way a bungled job. If Bioware really wanted to make something of it, they could have given you the opportunity to examine it, or at least quiz Morrigan on it and find out why she wouldn't show it to you. They could have made a lot more out of this, including the result of the ethical decision you make. But they didn't. The whole "I've got the book, she'll kill me, kill her" excuse just hangs there, without sufficient evidence for you to make an informed decision.

[Bloodstalker]

But you could make her just as happy by telling her Flemeth was dead, and bringing her the book. Either could be lying, Morrigan or Flemeth. They have a very similar, dry, oblique method of response that leaves plenty of room for interpretation. Morrigan, at least, seems to always play to her own main advantage, but Flemeth sounds just as cynical.

I'd hate to be in a poker game with either. Unless they agreed to pay in advance for the coldcuts, that is.

Yes, but my character has issues with lying. He'll kill, pillage, and steal poor defenseless villager blinds all while wearing a happy face, but he won't lie. I'm trying to play this one as noble for once.

Also, you forgot about the part where I just didn't like the old bat.

To address other rumors, the nightie thing never happened. It was a robe people, it just got shrunk in the wash.

[dragon wench]

That's my point. When the battles are tougher still, it doesn't matter that you have three mages. But with Flemeth, the opportunity to freeze her and keep her frozen early on is just too likely, and administer deadly damage quickly. So one of those three mages has to go, and Bioware insures this will happen in an unimaginative way.

Hmmm... Have you dealt with Gaxxkang?
That fight is truly nasty, and I found that bringing three mages made a *huge* difference. I have two characters, a duel wielding rogue and a mage focusing on elemental damage. When I tried that battle with my rogue I ended up switching to easy mode because I was getting tired of reloading. When I tried it with my mage I managed it on the second attempt at the normal setting. My party in both cases consisted of Morrigan, Alistair and Wynne each at about level 14, but the extra fire power in the one set-up made every difference.

To address other rumors, the nightie thing never happened. It was a robe people, it just got shrunk in the wash.

Well... the difference between a robe and a dress is sort of like the difference between a skirt and a kilt.. To those wearing them, they are vastly different items, but to everyone else they're the same thing.