The Merits of Solo'ing - Is it really harder?

[RPGguy]

I've always considered solo'ing to be the pinnacle of expert gameplay. I don't know why I assumed that, I just did. But in a lot of respects, I think it makes the game easier.

I'm working on on my 3rd playthru (ever) of the saga. My first 2 run-throughs I played with a party of 6 and was blown away by the encounters. Granted, I knew nothing about Ad&D or the Infinity engine or any of the class tactics these communities had developed/archived.

I should confess that I have never solo'd, sorta. I'm currently running a 4 man party with a cleric ranger I developed through BG1/ToSC, on the advise of it being one of the more powerful classes. I guess I am kind of shocked at how powerful a LVL 16/14 cleric ranger is. And I'm only about a third of the way through the Underdark. Even though I have 3 other party members, I find that due to laziness and overconfidence in my build, they mostly just hang in the back because I know my PC can slaughter just about anything. That's why I say "sorta". I am pseudo-solo'ing and find myself forcing myself to occasionally get the others involved just to enjoy their powers in different combinations.

I guess I suspect that solo'ing is actually easier. While it's true you are less equipped to handle a variety of encounters efficiently while you are alone, sol'ing escalates the power of your PC so rapidly that you routinely end up facing opponents being much more deadly at any given point than the game developers probably intended or envisioned.

Once you know who and what are where, you can easily complete quests in an order that never (or at least rarely) puts your PC in a truly risky position.

So that's my theory. I guess the most difficult aspect of sol'ing seems to be the handling of loot with limited inventory space unless you want to cheese in a bag of holding or two. I suppose also that I have just naturally progressed to the point most of you reached a long time ago...the point where mods like Ascension become necessary.

Thoughts?

Aside: Whirlwind gets too much attention. If you really want to chuckle, combine Improved Haste with the Deathblow HLAs. I just chop-suey'ed 6 Illithids and 4 Umber Hulks in under 12 seconds (2 rounds). I can't believe those things used to freak me out :laugh:

[QuenGalad]

I went through SoA twice with only my PC. One was an assassin and the other was a wizard slayer-thief. It wasn't that easy, but then again i was never a tactics-master. It was easier than i expected, though. The hardest parts were in the beginning, when the chance to hit was low and so were the hit points.

The assassin's worst fight was actually with the two thugs outside Copper Coronet :laugh: Thank goodness for daddy bhaal's power of fear. The slavers were another choking point, and after that it was all right, though not that smooth. She got dragons down with that poison, eventually.

The wizard slayer had some trouble with her equipment restrictions - no ring of regeneration was a real pain sometimes. I remember running around spellhold and not even being able to use the healing statue-and-floor because you need two people for that. Later on, i spent ages trying to do something about the svirfneblin demon, and eventually had to bypass it. Though i'm still interested in our tactic master's oppinion on that, maybe i should start a thread?

Overall, the wizard slayer/thief was harder, because she had the whole dualclassing business to endure and then the item restrictions, but it was fun to solo and backstab and poison everyone. I even used poisoned throwing daggers to make it more assassinous The worst enemies were those who could heal themselves before i managed to kill them - deamons with Vampiric Touch, some trolls etc. - and the fact that if you get charmed, the game's over.

[Crenshinibon]

By the time you start soloing, you'd already be familiar with the game enough to know where you need to go for your equipment. I'm sure that when playing a single character, you wouldn't have any trouble with the early fights - given that you don't charge in and attack blindly (unless you're a fighter type character). In any case, while you're conquering the early game fights, alone, you're also getting the experience that your five other party members would have gotten otherwise. As such, you level really quickly (I've gotten to two levels short of the Throne of Bhaal level cap before finishing Chapter Two).

Essentially, you've gotten everything correct with your assumptions.

In terms of soloing, if you're looking for more of a challenge than Baldur's Gate II, I'd actually suggest the first game. At most, you can have 161,000 experience, but some of the enemies can still kill you if you're not careful. But again, if you know the game, you shouldn't have trouble with it.

Also, I agree about Whirlwind. I think that there are only two classes which should get it: Monk (definitely) and in some cases the Swashbuckler. I usually don't get the Deathblow abilities as I can kill the enemies either way. From the fighter pool, Hardiness is my favorite. Though if you're playing an Archer, Smite has some merit, just as Critical Strike for Fighter/Clerics.

[RPGguy]

@Quen:

Assassinous? That is hilarious. You should put that on a T-shirt!

@Cren

Thanks for verify what I suspected. Also, your comments on the R/C were dead on. I have filled my level 2 slots with 10 Draw Upons which means I can basically run around with 25 STR/DEX/CON for every encounter without wasting any slots on stat-boosting equipment...which means I can use those slots instead on items that give utter immunity. I can't believe Armor of Faith is a LVL1 spell! I've basically filled my spellbook with those as well. Throw in Hardiness, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Book of Infinite Spells (set to Spell Turning), Shield of Achrons and there really isn't much that can touch you.

Dual-wielding at 7/2 (even without DoE which I don't have access to) to dish the pain, the ability to summon skeleton warriors, Sanctuary when you need it (very rarely), AC of -10 without really trying, saves that are almost all in the negative range, insane THAC0...and a whack of other spells/abilities? I can't even imagine what the C/R is going to look like when both classes are + LVL20. Definitely over-powered, at least pre-ToB.

So if I want to turn it up a couple of notches for my next run-thru...

1. Ascension? (I take it that is the consensus mod for improving enemy AI?)
2. Try a class other than Sorcer, Mage or C/R?
3. Roll with a party of 6?
4. Avoid cheese weapons like the Amulet of Cheese, the Staff of Cheese, the Robe of Cheese etc?

[Crenshinibon]

With the Defender of Easthaven included, the Cleric/Ranger can get an amazing 85% physical resistance. If you're not able to use it, I'd suggest either Runehammer +5 or Crom Fayer. In any case, using a strength girdle is also up to you, though personally I like the Belt of Inertial Barrier.

For spell Protections, don't forget Iron Skins. Later on, your AC will be even higher, though that doesn't mean much as enemies can still hit you.

Ascencion does not improve the AI of all enemies, just the Bhaalspawn, which it also changes around.

Try a Wild Mage. Really though, this class is pretty powerful, I'd say that it is THE most powerful.

You can look at it two ways: on the one side, you can overwhelm the enemy with your party, on the other, you will be significantly power and alone.

I don't think there's a point to avoid those items. Even without them, a lot of fights can be won by changing your strategy a bit.

[RPGguy]

Ya, once I found the Belt of Inertial Barrier, it never came off. Not a fan of using any equipment that boosts STR since there are a ton of spells/potions that can do that.

Just finished reading the Ascension README so ya, understand how it is Bhallspawn focused. Glad I thought about if before reaching ToB in my current run-thru, so I still have a chance to install it (I hope).

I definitely haven't forgotten about Iron Skins. With Wonderous Recall, I basically have Iron Skins on all the time.

As for the primary topic, I am still mentally constipated about whether smaller parties or solo'ing provides a more challenging, rewarding experience. I don't think it does. I'm starting to get the sense that an incredible amount of fun can be had by using the weakest classes or class kits and building a party with the less dominant NPC's, each highly specialized.

A larger party keeps your leveling-up in check. A larger party is more difficult to protect in all respects. A larger party also naturally evolves to create more interesting inter dependencies so that, in the event an enemy is successful in landing a stun/confusion/death you lose a key aspect of your defense 'chain'. For example, if you lose the ability to control the one guy in your party who can bring down spell shields, even temporarily, the dynamic of the battle can swing dramatically. It's that potentially chaotic element that can provide a nice thrill via mild panic.

I am also toying around with the idea of a no-summons play-through, although I might regret it. I really love those Nishruu I tell ya...except when they get dominated and turned against me :laugh:

[Crenshinibon]

In my experience, summons don't really help as much. At best, they (Planetars and Devas) make great tanks and healers, other than that, I don't think there's much of a use to them (in boss fights at least).

A lot of your characters will be able to overlap in terms of roles through various abilities gained naturally or through items. Blades overlap with everyone though, except maybe clerics.

Actually, I'd suggest that all human characters take at least one level of mage for flexibility, especially when playing the original Baldur's Gate.

[Edar Macilrille]

Ascension is a must.

If you were not anti-mod I would definately recommend SCS II.

[QuenGalad]

A larger party is more difficult to protect in all respects. A larger party also naturally evolves to create more interesting inter dependencies so that, in the event an enemy is successful in landing a stun/confusion/death you lose a key aspect of your defense 'chain'. For example, if you lose the ability to control the one guy in your party who can bring down spell shields, even temporarily, the dynamic of the battle can swing dramatically. It's that potentially chaotic element that can provide a nice thrill via mild panic.

That's a very good point. Protection from level drain is a good example, as is yours with the spell breaching. Having a strong character dominated by the enemy can finish you off nicely, and the more people you have the harder it is to protect them. Of course it's still possible, but you need to plan more carefully.
Has anyone fought the demi-lich in the Watcher's Keep with more than one, imprisonment-protected character? Maybe two? Of course, if you play an all-mage party you can send them all there. But if you don't, i imagine others just hang back and let the protected guy do the work.

[RPGguy]

I'll be honest, one of the deaths I've had in this playthrough was being caught off guard by Tunova and 2 of her...um...kin. I was fresh out of Irenicus' dungeon, just getting my bearings in a new town. Unfortunately I stumbled into the gov't district at night.

Before my PC could even react, he was dominated. One hit from Tunova drained 5 levels just seconds prior to that!!!! Oh, and by the way...when I say "5 levels" I really mean 10 levels because my multiclassed PC lost 5 levels from each class

If that wasn't enough, Tunova and her brethren are hasted with very low THAC0's when you bump into them. I was totally screwed. Jan, Edwin and Haer'Dalis were readily butchered after that. I could barely even get off a spell. And I couldn't flee with them because I knew that once the domination wore off my PC, he was screwed. I had no choice but to stick around to try to save him from a certain death.

I truly felt like I just got spanked to the point of utter embarrassment. I've only died 3 other times the whole game but that was the worst by far. It was a very potent example of how taking out one element of your defense can bring down the entire house of cards.

PS. In my case, the PC was the cleric/ranger. Not a good dude to lose outright in the opening round against super-hasted, epic level vampires. (shakes head)

[jonj]

Thoughts?

Couple of obvious ones from a new guy. You've picked a ranger/cleric multiclass for your main guy. You're also in the Underdark, which while nasty in places, is not as rough as it gets. As such it's not too surprising that the cleric is bashing its way through most things.

By the time you start soloing, you'd already be familiar with the game enough to know where you need to go for your equipment

Not always true. I started soloing within about a minute of realising experience from kills is split evenly between party members, so just outside Candlekeep. I'm probably anomalous in this respect.

Soloing is harder. The main reason for this is the level cap; it all goes swimmingly while you're still leveling up. You then hit the XP limit (whatever it might be), and your character stagnates while the rest of the world gets steadily tougher. As such the game starts out hard, and ends hard. The bit in the middle (e.g. Underdark) is lovely though. If there's three or four of you, they all hit the same experience cap in time and there's only fighting over equipment to cause problems. An individual is always going to end up less powerful than a group (esp than a group consisting of said individual + others).

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The other aspect is that whatever class you pick, you're likely to run into fatal situations that a party (or indeed a different class) wouldn't bat an eyelid at. I'm not sure your 16/14 cleric ranger would have great success killing Adalon by himself, but a similarly experienced mage or barbarian would have no problems whatsoever.

Maze and imprisonment are very serious if you're not one of the few classes that can evade them at will. Likewise domination et al, though they're more easily avoided.

A beastie that needs to be hit with a particular sword or dagger can cause endless problems for a cleric/ranger in BG1, likewise carrying a particularly heavy corpse can likewise cause problems if your one character isn't very strong.

Magic resistant creatures, in numbers greater than about 3, when you're a mage. A couple of things in ToB attack with considerable ferocity and near complete spell immunity; that's really difficult for a mage and I imagine for a cleric too.

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There's probably many more, but as I've almost always played as an arcane caster my examples from other classes are rather lacking. Recently finished with a sorcerer (alone) and had considerable difficulties towards the end of tob, but it was pretty much carnage up to that point. Just having a single fighter with me would have made things far simpler.

No fun if it's easy though

(necromancy is a result of the search function + not paying attention to the date stamp, my bad)

[Stworca]

With xp cap, soloing as Mage, Sorcerer, Something/mage dual classes, Druids, Bards is MUCH easier than playing with whole party.

Without xp cap, soloing as any class is MUCH easier than playing with whole party.

Nothing more has to be said. Arguments? Quite simply, the classes listed in the first sentence are indestructible, immortal. You face dragons and laugh at their silly attempts to harm you. While with party people WILL die.

Without xp cap.. Well, i've beaten Ascension fight even with a no-spec warrior.

A single character always gets all the best items, while with party you may need to split them in order to allow whole party to stay alive.

A quick quote to end my post :

"Playing with a single character without xp cap is much easier then with a party. If you have a Cleric 30 / mage 30 or a 20/20/20 F/M/C you'll just run through all this fights with ease, protected from everything. Its much trickier to beat this game with all NPCs alive if not all of your characters have pfmw."

[Sirfin]

Solo Ascension.

Playing solo Ascension is nigh impossible with level cap. Unless your running some funky mods that give you an advantage. It is the final battle that gets you every time. If your playing with the just the patch and the ascension mod and you manage it post about it.

Beating the game solo without ascension is doable with any class combo. Truly this is one of the best PC games ever written. Still fun after all these years.

[Thrar]

I've never finished a solo, but mostly because I missed the interaction and variety that playing with a party gave. I like playing duos or small parties of 3 or 4, each member can still become powerful quickly and I found them far more interesting to play.

If you're looking for a real challenge, [url="http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/category/182/index"]go here[/url] and join the [url="http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/182/index/3120942"]No-Reload Challenge[/url].
You can use any mod configuration and any party you like, but think twice about difficulty-enhancing mods - going through the whole game without ever getting the PC killed is a lot harder than it may seem!

[Stworca]

I've never finished a solo, but mostly because I missed the interaction and variety that playing with a party gave. I like playing duos or small parties of 3 or 4, each member can still become powerful quickly and I found them far more interesting to play.

If you're looking for a real challenge, [url="http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/category/182/index"]go here[/url] and join the [url="http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/182/index/3120942"]No-Reload Challenge[/url].
You can use any mod configuration and any party you like, but think twice about difficulty-enhancing mods - going through the whole game without ever getting the PC killed is a lot harder than it may seem!

Bah. If you're looking for a challenge beat SCSII + Ascension on Insane No-Reload with xp cap.

Done that Arcane spellcasting is over the top and then some in BG2.

edit : No-reload No-CHEESE ascension runs are madness tho.
And overall i find no-reload runs a rather stupid idea. After milion play's ('tis when you start no-reload) you know everything there is to know about BG2 anyway.
Now a BLIND no-reload run...!

[QuenGalad]

Which leads us straight to the signature of one of GB members :

"You guys need a lesson of the true powergamer! Play mages, name them Kofi Annan, and use only non-interwention spells!"

(Was it Louis Antonio? I can't remember)

I really don't see the point of doing such strange things, it's an alien concept for me. However, don't get me wrong, anyone can play the game exactly how they like.
Well, accept for those who just click through dialogue without reading. Those guys should suffer.

[Stworca]

Which leads us straight to the signature of one of GB members :

"You guys need a lesson of the true powergamer! Play mages, name them Kofi Annan, and use only non-interwention spells!"

(Was it Louis Antonio? I can't remember)

I really don't see the point of doing such strange things, it's an alien concept for me. However, don't get me wrong, anyone can play the game exactly how they like.
Well, accept for those who just click through dialogue without reading. Those guys should suffer.

To be quite honest i didn't ever make a no-reload run intentionaly. It just turned out that way over and over. Once you get a hang of a class, you'll run through everything without much efford. In my case it was a sorcerer. Although i must say it's probably the easiest class to play in BG2.
1. Pick the right spells
2. Become an indestructible SCUD launcher
3. Beat every encounter without getting hit even once
4. Grow tired of the game
5. Find a forum and troll it.
6. ???
7. Proffit!

(I always click through dialogue without reading. beaten Dragon Age in 20 hours, all side quests, blind run i'm a bad person?)

[QuenGalad]

<snip>
4. Grow tired of the game
5. Find a forum and troll it.
6. ???
7. Proffit!

Have you been reading Bluenose's DA:O walkthrough story on Spellhold Studios? If not, check it out, it's great.

(I always click through dialogue without reading. beaten Dragon Age in 20 hours, all side quests, blind run i'm a bad person?)

I think you realize this was a joke. Anyway, I was specifically referring to my ex-husband

Back on topic, I know where the additional challenges come from, but I just don't find them entertaining myself. I tried soloing twice. First time, with an assassin, was actually fun, until I realized it wasn't soloing at all, since I got various npc's to join, but for a short time only. She was kind of 'using' them.

The second time was really difficult - it was a wizardslayer/thief. Since I'm not really a tactics genius it was damn hard, especially since the game is over if the solo character becomes dominated. The deamon in svirfnebli village was impossible to beat, for example.

What's SCUD?

[Stworca]

What's SCUD?

This is [url="http://notesfromamedinah.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/scud3a.jpg"]SCUD[/url]

Hmm That's some heavy offtopic right here..
But Quen made me do it DWench, i swear!

[nokturn]

Well I'd like to add that soloing is, imho, way easier. I just soled the game with a lvl13 kensai/mage and once your mage hits a certain lvl (for me it was around 20) everything becomes ridiculously easy. I have the tactics mod installed and the poison encounter outside WK gave my full 6 party a major headache. This time, though, I was able to get a time stop off at the beginning of the battle and that, basically, sealed the fate of those snakes. The only one able to survive 4 wiltings + 2 comets + 4 sunfires was the spear thrower and he died pretty fast under the blows of my katanas.