Best Backstab Weapon

RPGguy · Post by **RPGguy** » Tue May 04, 2010 4:34 pm

+8 vs evil

Call me cynical but I'd be surprised if the BS calculation successfully incorporated a qualifying damage modifier like that. Would be interested in seeing some play test results. I', guessing there's a decent chance it doesn't show up/

vonhizzle · Post by **vonhizzle** » Tue May 04, 2010 4:58 pm

I think you may be right, tested vs a skeleton in BG1.

Answerer (x3 backstab and Kai) 55dmg

Upped Daystar (x3 backstab and Kai) 59dmg

RPGguy · Post by **RPGguy** » Tue May 04, 2010 5:20 pm

vonhizzle wrote:I think you may be right, tested vs a skeleton in BG1.

Answerer (x3 backstab and Kai) 55dmg

Upped Daystar (x3 backstab and Kai) 59dmg

That's too bad. Heck of an idea though.

vonhizzle · Post by **vonhizzle** » Tue May 04, 2010 5:33 pm

I think something is off here though because it wasn't doing the double damage that it is supposed to do to undead either. Maybe it is something to do with BG1 Tutu rather than BG2, like different cre files or something. I will test again once my party gets to BG2, don't have a BG2 savegame right now.

RPGguy · Post by **RPGguy** » Tue May 04, 2010 5:49 pm

vonhizzle wrote:I think something is off here though because it wasn't doing the double damage that it is supposed to do to undead either. Maybe it is something to do with BG1 Tutu rather than BG2, like different cre files or something. I will test again once my party gets to BG2, don't have a BG2 savegame right now.

Sorry, I brainfarted earlier. Skeleton = undead. Undead = immune to backstab.

vonhizzle · Post by **vonhizzle** » Tue May 04, 2010 6:05 pm

Yea my test sucked, I will try again later lol.

Saros · Post by **Saros** » Wed May 05, 2010 12:38 am

Only the base damage of the weapon is calculated via Backstab multiplier. That means (for example) that the Staff of the Ram will inflict (1d6+12*Backstab multiplier) + 1d4 damage. Same true for other weapons with additional damage bonuses.

The Daystar's double damage vs Undead works in two strikes - meaning regular damage * backstab is dealt first, and then comes the second 1d8+4 slash, which is additional damage, and thus not multiplied. However, the second slash is very useful vs Liches for example, since it penetrates Stoneskin (somehow, although it shouldn't).

In some situations, crushing weapons are the best for backstabbing - clubs and staves, because different enemies may have good Slashing or piercing damage resistance.

Edar Macilrille · Post by **Edar Macilrille** » Wed May 05, 2010 3:36 am

Eh? Can you even backstab with Crushing Weapons? I always get a message telling me that it is unsuited for BS, FoA in particular.

Saros · Post by **Saros** » Wed May 05, 2010 4:09 am

You can backstab with ANY weapon suited for a single-class thief. This includes piercing-type (dagger, shortsword), slashing type (longsword) and crushing type (staff, club) weapons. You can also backstab with monster claws when shapeshifted or spell-weapons (like Phantom Blade, Flame Blade, Black Blade of Disaster, etc). All of the weapons deal their original type of damage on backstab (i.e. Daystar will deal Slashing damage when backstabbing, not Piercing). Of course you won't be able to backstab with DoE or any other flail, because a single-class thief cannot use it. But you can backstab with Blackblood club or any other club useable by single class Thief. Same goes for quarterstaves.

Kerosene · Post by **Kerosene** » Wed May 05, 2010 4:11 am

There are so much people saying you can't backstab with crushing weapons, and blah blah.

The truth is,

YOU CAN.

It's less accurate, but it still works.

Edar Macilrille · Post by **Edar Macilrille** » Wed May 05, 2010 4:45 am

Thanks for clarifying Saros, of course that is the reason; should have thought of that.

Dante2377 · Post by **Dante2377** » Thu May 06, 2010 12:41 am

Saros wrote:You can backstab with ANY weapon suited for a single-class thief. This includes piercing-type (dagger, shortsword), slashing type (longsword) and crushing type (staff, club) weapons. You can also backstab with monster claws when shapeshifted or spell-weapons (like Phantom Blade, Flame Blade, Black Blade of Disaster, etc). All of the weapons deal their original type of damage on backstab (i.e. Daystar will deal Slashing damage when backstabbing, not Piercing). Of course you won't be able to backstab with DoE or any other flail, because a single-class thief cannot use it. But you can backstab with Blackblood club or any other club useable by single class Thief. Same goes for quarterstaves.

Also to clarify, if something isn't usable by a single-class thief WITHOUT using the UAI HLA, they can't backstab with it. For example, the staff of the magi - it's a quarterstaff, which as a weapon class can be used for backstab, but this particular weapon cannot since thieves cannot naturally use it.

If you have any of the tweakpack tweaks or mods that let multiclass thieves backstab with weapons a fighter can use, that still applies. For example with a tweak like that, a fighter/thief multiclass could use Lilarcor to backstab (since any fighter can use it), but NOT Carsomyr with UAI, since a F/T can't use it before UAI.

RPGguy · Post by **RPGguy** » Thu May 06, 2010 3:03 am

You can backstab with ANY weapon suited for a single-class thief. This includes piercing-type (dagger, shortsword), slashing type (longsword) and crushing type (staff, club) weapons. You can also backstab with monster claws when shapeshifted or spell-weapons (like Phantom Blade, Flame Blade, Black Blade of Disaster, etc). All of the weapons deal their original type of damage on backstab (i.e. Daystar will deal Slashing damage when backstabbing, not Piercing). Of course you won't be able to backstab with DoE or any other flail, because a single-class thief cannot use it. But you can backstab with Blackblood club or any other club useable by single class Thief. Same goes for quarterstaves.

I am not criticizing this comment when I say the following...

I HATE how you can backstab with anything other than a dagger. You're sneaking up and stabbing the dude in the back. Stab = pierce. How do you 'stab' someone with a club or a stave???

Sorry, just a pet peeve...nothing serious.

Edar Macilrille · Post by **Edar Macilrille** » Thu May 06, 2010 3:46 am

In a way yes, but if you call it instead "surprise attack from behind" does that sound better? It still does a lot of damage as surprise allows the attacker to choose to crush a spine, cut a throat, split a skull, or stab below the shoulderblade to pierce the heart.

The attacker has time to pick a place and prepare the attack...

RPGguy · Post by **RPGguy** » Thu May 06, 2010 4:09 am

Edar Macilrille wrote:In a way yes, but if you call it instead "surprise attack from behind" does that sound better? It still does a lot of damage as surprise allows the attacker to choose to crush a spine, cut a throat, split a skull, or stab below the shoulderblade to pierce the heart.

The attacker has time to pick a place and prepare the attack...

Yes, that is an excellent point. I feel better already. You're a good man Edar.

Edar Macilrille · Post by **Edar Macilrille** » Thu May 06, 2010 5:21 am

Yes, but I have not really shown it yet

Thanks nonetheless. Glad to have calmed your conscience.

IMO Backstab should be available to any melee-weapon wielding class, but sneaking only to sneakers such as Thieves and Rangers. Though RL it is available to everybody, I have often trained how to sneak up on an enemy and silencing him without anyone noticing, and that is the Danish Armed Forces. Not the plave you would look for Thieves and assassins...

In Rolemaster's hugely complicated rules system there is a form of backstab available to anyone, at different Dev pt cost, but I have modified it myself to make it more realistic. And in Oleg's Skirmish System that we use these days, anyone attacking from behind and/or with surprise gets a bonus to the attack.