Evil!

[Trickstuf]

So I think I've decided on an evil PC with:

Korgan
Vicionica
and Edwin

I originally wanted my PC to be an archer (fighter archer from tactics mod)... but I see a glaring problem: My party has no thief. This is a problem because I want to have a 4 person party only!

Is this bad? I've played through BG2 before and it seems rather impossible without one. I also have ToB installed. What should I do?

[vonhizzle]

Generic archer can dual to thief no problem. Or Fighter/Thief multi. Or Swash dual to Fighter. I don't really see the problem here. If your asking can you complete the game without a thief then sure you can but what are you gaining by using an archer over something with thief in it? A couple +to hit and damage? Doesn't seem worth it to me.

[Edar Macilrille]

You can also bring Jan and Haer'Dalis. They are neutral, so they do not mind you being evil.

[Trickstuf]

so if I went the Fighter/Thief option, what would be better, dualing or multiclass?

I think I understand the mechanics of both, and multiclassing sounds really appealing, but so does getting grandmastery in say the Short Bow. What do you guys think?

EDIT: Or if dualing would it be silly to not put grandmastery into the weapon I intend to backstab with?

SO CONFUSING lol

[vonhizzle]

You can also bring Jan and Haer'Dalis. They are neutral, so they do not mind you being evil.

Haer'Dalis isn't a thief so that doesn't help lol. I can't imagine an evil party tolerating Jan's turnip jokes for more than a couple minutes . He only wanted 4 people anyway though so doesn't really matter.

If you dual say archer/thief you can GM one weapon before dualing and then after you reactivate your fighter class you can GM another. Make sure to chose things you have no points in when leveling up as a pure thief, or just don't level up until you have enough experience to reactivate your fighter class.

As a dual you miss out on GWW which is awesome with ranged weapons. If you are planning on using Tuigian Bow and memorizing Improved Haste with Edwin it's not a big loss. The Archer bonuses are more effective on a high rof low damage weapon like Tuigian as well.

Honestly either way will be fine, ranged with bow and then backstab with quarterstaff makes a great weapon combo.

However, I think if it were me, and keeping to only 4 people, I would do a F/M/T. Having a secondary caster to take down spell protections and buff your party is very nice. I used to only play with one arcane (there is only one robe of vecna, one staff of the magi, etc) but once I tried with another (was a bard I think) I never went back. You can equip one as a pure caster and the other as more of a battle caster, with elven chain etc. (My favorite combo is drow elven chain with amulet of power, gives -2 casting speed, half of what vecna gives. It is possible to smuggle drow elven chain out of the underdark with a ferret familiar, which is for lawful neutral alignment I believe).

[Majorman]

so if I went the Fighter/Thief option, what would be better, dualing or multiclass?

I think I understand the mechanics of both, and multiclassing sounds really appealing, but so does getting grandmastery in say the Short Bow. What do you guys think?

EDIT: Or if dualing would it be silly to not put grandmastery into the weapon I intend to backstab with?

Grandmastery is not that much of a deal in BG 2 (compared to stnadard ADnD rules, it's nerfed), so it's not that crucial.

Actually it depends. It seems you want to play as a ranged fighter, so I'll suggest dualling to a fighter at level 7, unless you really like backstabbing people. Just make sure you put the thief's proficiency points in weapons different from bows, otherwise the'll be lost.

[Trickstuf]

thanks for the feedback guys

So if I dualed, this is what I would do:

1) Start as an archer
2) Put all my points into longbows (ie grandmastery)
3) Dual to thief at level 9
4) Put all my points into long swords (or whatever weapon i would be backstabbing with)
5) Switch back to fighter at 18 and go from there

And this is opposed to multi classing, which would allow me to access the fighter HLA? So when I dual i get thief HLAs but not fighter HLAs correct?

And should I invest my fighter points into longbows or shortbows?

[Pellinore]

I am playing an evil campaign as we speak. I am playing a Half-Orc Fighter/Thief. Backstabs with 19 str is pretty sic...

[vonhizzle]

Shortbows over Longbows for sure. Shortbows, Crossbows, and Slings are really in a different class than Longbows.

[Trickstuf]

OH wait i think i understand now...

Majorman is correct, I really just want an archer who has the ability to open locks and find traps as to eliminate the need for a separate thief in my party.

Given this, does it make more sense for me to start as a thief and then immediately dual to an archer? Is this a good idea, or is multiclassing still a better option?

[vonhizzle]

You can't dual to a kit only from one.

[Trickstuf]

ok

so do I need to invest any proficiency points into the weapon that I'm going to be backstabbing with (ie longswords) or should I just invest them all in short bows (what I'm going to be using normally)

Like here's what I have so far:

1) Generic Archer (fighter class with tactics mod)
2) Grand Mastery in shortbow
3) Dual to thief at level 13
4) Proficiency in backstabbing weapon???

[vonhizzle]

Might as well get at least specialized in it. Its not like you only get 5 proficiency points.

[Trickstuf]

in your opinion does dualing from an archer make much sense or would it be more logical to just go for the kensai/thief setup?

[Majorman]

thanks for the feedback guys

So if I dualed, this is what I would do:

1) Start as an archer
2) Put all my points into longbows (ie grandmastery)
3) Dual to thief at level 9
4) Put all my points into long swords (or whatever weapon i would be backstabbing with)
5) Switch back to fighter at 18 and go from there

And this is opposed to multi classing, which would allow me to access the fighter HLA? So when I dual i get thief HLAs but not fighter HLAs correct?

And should I invest my fighter points into longbows or shortbows?

WAIT! There's something you're missing. Once you dual to another class, you CAN'T go back! In fact, you cannot even change your class any more, for that matter. So careful planning is the key. Here are the basic rules:

1) You MUST be Human.

2) You MUST be at least level 2.

3) You MUST start from a Class that can dual. Paladins/Bards cannot Dual to anything, nor can you dual anyone to a Bard/Paladin.

4) The combination MUST be a valid "Multiclass." If you can't find it on the list above (ignore the race restrictions), then you can't dual it. An example of an ILLEGAL class would be a Fighter/Ranger. Not a valid Multiclass, so you can't Dual it either.

5) You need to have sufficient Stats. You need at least 15 in the Prime Stats of your current class (i.e. 15 STR for a Fighter) and at least 17 in the Prime Stats of your desired class (i.e. 17 INT for a Mage).

Note: Specialist Mages have an extra "Prime Stat" beyond just INT.

6) Finally there is also an Alignment Requirement. Thieves cannot be Lawful, so a Lawful Good Fighter cannot Dual to a Thief. Also Druids must be True Neutral.

I copied these from [url="http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=36463"]Dan Simpson's Guide[/url] because I'm too lazy to compose it myself. In BG 2, however, there's an additional rule:

7) You can have ONLY ONE kit at any time. Thus, a berserker/thief is possible, while a berserker/assassin is not.

You want to be primary an archer, so, if I were you, I would start as an thief with maxed Dex and at least 17 Str, max "find traps" and "open locks" and then immedietly dual to a generic archer. I would put my thief proficiency points in short and long swords and my fighter proficiency points in small bows and crossbowss and would not touch the swords untill I unlock my thief abilities. That's another thing worth mentioning - once you dual, all the abilities given by your previous class are locked - that's untill your character reaches [your primary class' level + 1]. In short, if you put * in short swords as a thief, and then put * in short swords as a fighter before reaching the abovementioned level, you lose your thief proficiency point.

Finally, you get HLa depending on class level. If you manage to build a lvl 22 thief/lvl 23 fighter (which is doable), you'll get both theif and fighter HLAs. If you have a theif 7/fighter X, you get only fighter HLAs.

Edit: And another thing. Short bows and crossbows are much better than longbows in BG 2.

[vonhizzle]

You want to be primary an archer, so, if I were you, I would start as an thief with maxed Dex and at least 17 Str, max "find traps" and "open locks" and then immedietly dual to a generic archer. I would put my thief proficiency points in short and long swords and my fighter proficiency points in small bows and crossbowss and would not touch the swords untill I unlock my thief abilities. That's another thing worth mentioning - once you dual, all the abilities given by your previous class are locked - that's untill your character reaches [your primary class' level + 1]. In short, if you put * in short swords as a thief, and then put * in short swords as a fighter before reaching the abovementioned level, you lose your thief proficiency point.

Finally, you get HLa depending on class level. If you manage to build a lvl 22 thief/lvl 23 fighter (which is doable), you'll get both theif and fighter HLAs. If you have a theif 7/fighter X, you get only fighter HLAs.

You cannot dual to a kit so thief dual to archer is impossible. If you want to start out as a thief then use the swashbuckler kit and lvl up to 10 (thieves roll hit die till lvl 10 and an extra +1 to hit and dmg at 10 with a swash) then dual to fighter. This way you have a base thaco of 0 end game and fighter HLAs. I do not recommend dualing late enough to get HLAs from both pools, it is simply too long of a wait to reactivate your classes. If you want both sets of HLAs then make a multi F/T you will be much happier.

It really is not as complicated as all this and I think you might have more fun with a multi F/T, its just easier.

[Trickstuf]

thanks a lot for the explanation. I think I understand the mechanics, now I'm just curious about the application.

I guess my main question now is just whether an archer/thief is even a good idea, or if I'm just better off going for the kensai/thief to become a backstabbing machine.

I really liked the appeal of the archer -> thief because of the ability to get grandmastery and just become a little low thac0 machine gunner, but at the same time I feel like it would really complicate the main role of being a thief, which is the backstabbing. Am I way off base here? Am I better off just being a kensai/thief?

[kmonster]

Just take a fighter/thief or fighter/mage/thief multiclass, this will allow both weapon specialization and backstabbing and yield a character superior to the dualclasses.

Editing your race to human should be quite easy if you want to play one. There's also a mod (I think it's even an EoU component) which allows to get grandmastery for multiclass fighters.

There's also the option to play a bow using pure class assassin, you can backstab*7 and envenoming will make your arrows very deadly.

If you like archery and want to dualclass there's no need to take a kensai. Vanilla fighter/thief dualclass is sufficient, if you want to abuse UAI you can also start as wizard slayer for extra MR.