Two handed weapons

[Scottg]

I'm not actually sure I agree with the idea of using two daggers, they may be faster, but the initial hit when backstabbing is so much higher with a sword that most opponents don't survive long enough for the dagger speed to make a difference.

It's not just speed, it's critical/backstab modifiers as well. (..and usually armor penetration is a bit better with daggers.)

Typically The Rose's Thorn (primary)/Beastman's Dagger (secondary).

For a Warrior dueling I prefer the Keening Blade (primary) / Thorn of the Dead Gods lvl 3 (secondary). (..that particular "Thorn" doesn't cost anything, as opposed to the "Rose".)

[galraen]

I haven't really convinced myself either way, generally I decide depending on how tough I consider the target to be. If I think I can take it down in two hits if the first hit is a backstab with a 'main' weapon that's what I go for. If I think it's going to be a prolonged combat then it's daggers, and usually the one's you mentioned.

[Scottg]

I haven't really convinced myself either way, generally I decide depending on how tough I consider the target to be. If I think I can take it down in two hits if the first hit is a backstab with a 'main' weapon that's what I go for. If I think it's going to be a prolonged combat then it's daggers, and usually the one's you mentioned.

If you are playing it like that I'd recommend the primary for The Veshialle.

Base and bonus damage is similar to the best swords with 3 full rune slots (..perhaps 2 to 3 net less damage), AND it provides +10% to backstab damage.

Of course both sword and axe don't leverage your Dexterity for attack numbers - but Daggers do. (..that's why daggers are almost always better for a melee Rogue.)


Really, I'm always surprised when people say their dual-weapon Rogues are killing so fast/hitting so often. That hasn't been my experience at all - EXCEPT for a nearly perfectly placed backstab (usually right after stunning the target with Dirty Fighting). Of course the problem there is that Dirty Fighting doesn't last that long and as soon as the target moves you are out of perfectly placed backstabs.

[galraen]

The Veshialle is always on my shopping list, but the price!!!

[Scottg]

.grins.

[Scottg]

forum barfed (double post) please delete..

[Crenshinibon]

If you go all out Cunning, I believe that that the DPS with dual daggers is actually higher than with any other weapon combination (especially once you move into Awakening).

Well, my experience with a two-hander lies with solo play, so I never really had anyone run away from me, since I was the only target to begin with, however, if you look closely, the oponnent is still damaged even if you run away. You may observe this with your character as well if you run away from an enemy that's in mid-attack.

[galraen]

I believe you are right overall about DPS being higher with daggers, it's the initial backstab attack that got me querying the concept. Not sure yet on the efficiency of pausing and swapping weapons after the first hit.

[Crenshinibon]

If you're looking for massive backstab damage, try backstabbing with a two-handed weapon. :laugh: As far as I know, it works.

Oh, I'd like to point that depending on weapon choice, the two-hander can become immune to backstabs. But then again, in my opinnion, after a certain point, you stop relying on backstabs and start relying on critical hits, either through your huge critical chance or through Coup de Grace.

[Scottg]

If you're looking for massive backstab damage, try backstabbing with a two-handed weapon. :laugh: As far as I know, it works.

The more I think about it, the more I like it. It's *efficient*.

You can keep both Dexterity and Cunning fairly low (23 and 22 respectively), and spend the rest on Strength (or mostly on Strength). (..of course a 22 in cunning won't net you the final skill proficiency for most Rogue skills - but the 5th level chests don't seem to be worth it anyway.)

With a higher Strength you have:

1. Much better attack numbers - even if you aren't precisely aligned for a back-stab.
2. Total damage leverage with a 2-handed weapon.
3. Increased Strength damage modifier with a 2-handed weapon.
4. Ability to wear the best armor.


You also don't need to spend anything on Weapon talents.

This allows you to concentrate on most Rogue talents and specialist talents, effectively taking a *lot* of pressure off of the build.


..and frankly, the increase in single-hit damage seems more in keeping with a "back-stab" character (..even if the size of the weapon doesn't).

Hmm, wonder what it's like with flicker.. :mischief:

[Crenshinibon]

With the Legionnaire Scout specialization introduced in Awakening, a rogue could also make for an effective tank (then again, a dexterity rogue is the best tank you can get).

However, let's not forget that brute damage only gets us so far. Yes, you will have a massive backstab (though I'm pretty sure that a Rogue (Assassin/Shadow/Something) using a dagger will still do more), but you won't have many weapon skills, which is bad if you use your rogue as a DPS character, rather than support.

[Scottg]

With the Legionnaire Scout specialization introduced in Awakening, a rogue could also make for an effective tank (then again, a dexterity rogue is the best tank you can get).

However, let's not forget that brute damage only gets us so far. Yes, you will have a massive backstab (though I'm pretty sure that a Rogue (Assassin/Shadow/Something) using a dagger will still do more), but you won't have many weapon skills, which is bad if you use your rogue as a DPS character, rather than support.

Despite the flicker "quip", I was thinking more along the lines of the OC ("efficient" and all that within non-epic levels). After all, what Rogue could possibly neglect that certain dagger..

With regard to the OC though, *with* Awakening installed you could still leverage the Legionnaire Scout's +10 Strength and + 10 Constitution.. seems apropos for a Dwarf as well - espeically one making "back-stabs" with a 2-handed battle axe. :laugh:

As I look over the other specializations - Assasin seems the natural for the OC (mostly for Laceration and Feast of the Fallen), but I can't help thinking I'd choose Ranger.

[Crenshinibon]

Feast of the Fallen is actually a pretty useless skill since it only triggers if the enemy is killed by a backstab, unlike the warrior's Death Blow ability, which is a godsend.

The main reason to pick Assassin, in my opinnion, is for the Exploit Weakness talent, which increases backstab damage based on Cunning.

I'll agree with you in saying that it's more useful in the original campaign since there is no longer a need to backstab in Awakening due to the ability to achieve a high critical hit chance (that and Stealth's cooldown is too long to constantly backstab). My three Specializations would probably be: Bard, Legionnaire Scout and Duelist/Ranger. Personally, I think that Awakening has completely made Cunning builds obsolete, which is unfortunate because in the original campaign, not only were they pure DPS, but were utility characters as well.

[Scottg]

Feast of the Fallen is actually a pretty useless skill since it only triggers if the enemy is killed by a backstab, unlike the warrior's Death Blow ability, which is a godsend.

The main reason to pick Assassin, in my opinnion, is for the Exploit Weakness talent, which increases backstab damage based on Cunning.

But in the context of a back-stab 2-handed weapon build, Feast of the Fallen might be useful.. though frankly I don't see a lot of special (heavy draining stamina) maneuvers being used for such a build (..so no great need). (..in fact Dirty Fighting will pretty much be it except for the occasional Mark of Death.)

I went through the calculations on Exploit Weakness and Laceration. Even with a 60 in cunning, Exploit Weakness doesn't result in a great deal of additional damage. 8.5 additional damage points to be exact (per hit). Of course with a high Strength build it's going to be far worse.

Now Lacerate on the other hand is a boon in the "Strength 2-handed weapon back-stab build" context. It's 25% of the damage of your back-stab over 4 seconds. If you are hitting for over a hundred points of damage in a back-stab, then you are looking at least 25 points of damage. Of course it would be better still if the Lacerations stacked, but I doubt it.

Despite the Assassins perks, I still think I'd rather have a Master-level Bear drawing attention while my Rogue "slips" into stealth, flanking and making repleted back-stabs. Of course it would need testing first - it might not work at all.

[Crenshinibon]

In Awakening, the new runes and items are so ridiculous that at the very start of the expansion she had some 150 defense and 71% critical chance, doing close to two hundred and fifty a hit, and this was at level twenty four. At that point, I decided that backstabs aren't really worth it. I never encountered a battle where I needed to micromanage and retreat or abuse stealth in the expansion.

[SirSponge]

I have come to find a new appreciation for the "out-performed" two-hander. I created a new character that was two-handed spec. With the combination of blood frenzy, and swift salt I have no more complaints about their speed. I agree that you have to be smart about timing their talents in combat more than other builds, but I would venture to say that after playing this character, two-handers are far more fun to play, and fulfilling than others for me.

I transfered this character into Awakenings and used a combination of Blood Frenzy, Blessing of the Fade, swift salt, and Precise Striking to bring my attck speed to its max. With the new talents for two handers crowds are longer an issue. I soloed with this character very easily it seemed while still maintaining the fun factor, and their is nothing more fulfilling than soloing .

As far as weapon choice, I used the dragonbone clever axe that transfers into your game from the Witch Hunt DLC the whole game, both for Origins and Awakening and used Intensifying runes to crank up the damage:mischief: