Tactics, Ascension, and parties (spoilers)

[Rancid Sushi]

Yes, I know, another thread on what parties to take through Tactics + Ascension. Before you scream at me to use the search, I will defend my choice to make a new thread by saying that this is intended to be more of a discussion than a cry for advice. I've played through some of Tactics already just to get a taste of what sort of challenges to expect. Now I'm ready to get serious, and I have some proposals for party composition which we can debate if anyone's willing to play along with this little thought experiment. The only rule is that we're only allowed to use a single player-created character and only Bioware NPCs. That means no murder machines like Valen or Solaufein to take the challenge out of the two mods I'm playing. Here's the first draft of my party:

PC: male human Kensai, to be dual-classed to Mage at level 9.
STR: 17
DEX: 16
CON: 16
INT: 18
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

Delicious stats that I rolled fair and square. I'm sure we're all well aware of the power of Kensai/Mages. Let me just say that I am not traditionally a powergamer, but I think I'll have to become one in order to beat Tactics/Ascension at least on Core level. Feel free to disagree with me. I feel that the PC should be a powerhouse class, whether that be K/M or something else like Ranger/Cleric, Sorcerer, Inquisitor, or even Wizard Slayer/Thief. I would also be interested in discussing the possibilities of some Fighter (kit?)/Druid dual-class if anyone has experience with that.

The rest of my proposed party, and brief descriptions of their intended roles:

Minsc (tank, of course. IMO every party needs at least 2 through SOA and maybe 3 for TOB)

Jaheira (tank support, healing, and those tasty druid spells)

Yoshimo/Imoen (thief skills, later another mage for added tactical versatility)

Aerie (vast array of spells, and probably the tactical cornerstone of the party due to all of the possible spell combos).

Sarevok (additional tank, use Silver Sword and later Ravager to offer the extra offense needed against tough TOB enemies)

Considerations:

Cernd vs. Jaheira. As much as I can't stand Cernd's personality, he is a better druid than Jaheira because he levels faster. However, he doesn't transition as easily between combat and spell casting because he can't cast spells while shapeshifted, which is the only way he stands a chance in combat. Plus, Jaheira's side-story offers some nice experience which the party will lose if taking on Cernd, unless we wait a long time to do the druid grove quest. I'm very interested in hearing more pros and cons of choosing one or the other.

Keldorn vs. Minsc. I'm sure we all realize by now that inquisitors rock. I'm tempted to take one as my PC instead of having to make this choice, but Tactics adds one of the most abusive weapons I've ever seen in the form of a +4 katana which is why I picked Kensai because I'm a role-player at heart who's only trying to become more of a powergamer. However, Carsomyr is still awesome, and having an Inquisitor means that we'll soon be able to punch through the defenses of most magic-users in the game. However, Keldorn isn't as good a fighter as Minsc and can't use that very handy berserk ability. Thoughts?

Viconia vs. Aerie/Jaheira. Only because it's very easy to get Viconia over 100 Magic Res and she's a better priest than either of these two (though I'd only give up one by taking her). However, she lacks the long term power of Aerie's magic and also Jaheira's druid spells. She's guaranteed to have a high enough Turn Undead to dominate most undead in TOB, but then again Aerie will probably be able to compete with this at least somewhat. She's also tolerable as a romance because she's not whiny or overly possessive.

Side note: I'm also playing with Romantic encounters. I figure that if my PC is expected to work hard, he should get to play hard too.

Lastly, Haer'Dalis vs. Imoen. For one thing, it means I don't have to lose a party member during the Ascension fight because Mel turns Imoen against me. That's a big plus for Haer'Dalis in my book. I also like Haery because he's an outstanding tank, yet he seems a bit superfluous given the PC's class. Basically I would just be trading a broader spell repertoire for Ascension convenience and added power which doesn't sound like a bad idea for what we'll be dealing with in TOB. Also, Haery has UAI and spike/time traps for added cheese (which I don't consider cheese anymore, because the bad guys use plenty of it too).

I look forward to a lively discussion. Thanks everyone for your time.

[RPGguy]

Unfortunately, I don't have any Tactics/Ascension experience

But you get major points from me for at least considering The Cernd. I view Cernd as a handicap to challenge people. He's terrible. By using him, you forsake another NPC and you lose the benefit of reducing each share of XP upon kill (as opposed to playing with less than 6).

Agree Keldorn vs. Minsc is the toughest call but Carsomyr is probably a must-wield weapon in a Tactics/Ascension run and you waste a lot of proficiency points by giving it to Minsc, who's already invested in long bows and dual wielding. Verdict: Keldorn

If you are power-gaming, Aerie is the clear choice over Viconia. Her romance is much easier to complete. Additionally, I hate when Turn Undead escalates to dominating them instead of chunking them. It's a pain IMO. And Aerie's spell repertoire is just stunning. I'd rather have her flexibility than Viconia's MR.

Cernd versus Jaheira is a no brainer because Jaheira is tremendous nag who I depise and won't tolerate.

Finally, I'd probably roll with Haer'Dalis over Imoen. You're not roleplaying so you can ignore the plot continuity associated with keeping her. She's absent for a big chunk of the game and like you said, you lose her at the end. Only problem is that Haer will macdaddy Aerie away from you, based on what I've read. But if I was doing a Tactics/Ascension run, I wouldn't care about the romance as much as I would about just getting through the damn thing in one piece

[Rancid Sushi]

Oops, I somehow overlooked the fact that not having Imoen means not having thief abilities. I suppose if I really wanted to get rid of Imoen because she's a liability, I could always take Jan. That doesn't leave Haery with any space, unless I choose not to take Sarevok which seems like a mistake.

Interesting point about Cernd. Really, I think his only problem is that he can't be played as flexibly as Jaheira. He can fight, but he has to shapeshift which is clunky. Maybe his extra spell slots will make up for it since he can theoretically cast more elemental summonings and still have room for the other stuff?

[RPGguy]

Jan is deadly. If you are lamenting not having Viconia's MR, then Jan shapechanged into an Iron Golem should do the trick!

[Rancid Sushi]

True, Jan is very effective when used correctly but I'm afraid that taking him early will mean that the spell distribution (finding/purchasing scrolls) will be stretched thin across three magic-using characters and taking him late seems wasteful having Imoen suck up all the Sahuagin City/Underdark XPs. I could either choose a non-mage PC or simply have Jan get the PC and Aerie's leftover scrolls, using him primarily as a thief and only a light spell caster. I think the latter idea makes more sense, as Jan doesn't need a whole lot of spells to be effective in combat (Mislead + Spell Immunity: Divination for easy multiple backstabs) and he can craft those little stun bombs.

[RPGguy]

Jan only needs 4 spells: Mislead, Spell Immunty, Improved Haste and Shapechange. There are dozens of Mislead scrolls, tons of Imp'd Haste. Shapechange is the only relatively rare one. I would take Jan early and leave Imoen as soon as you hit Waukeen's plaza. Send her to the CC and once you rescue her, let her find her own way back to Amn. Since Jan is multi, you should grab him from the Gov't district as one of the first things you do...and keep him all the way so you can get him capable of casting LVL 9 spells asap.

And besides...he'll do anything for a turnip!

[Stworca]

Hmm!

First of all, does the "another thread" happens to be mine? (just curious curious, because i thought that the thread died somewhere from "no-views" syndrom) if so, then making a new one is fully justified even without explaination, because that was a how-to-beat guide, with just a slight addition of parties.

Anyway, to the point.

I disagree with the need for thief. You only need one in Irenicus dungeon, and to loot the graveyard to get some cash quickly.. and in Watcher's Keep. Which means, that you can drop the thieves completely, and just take one with you once you go to WK. (and if you explore watchers keep in ToB, then you can drop / pick them up at any time using Pocket Plane)

With this beign said, you can completely ignore your sister.

And since you don't care too much for roleplaying, then i suggest rolling with an evil party. Which is - as everybody knows - more powerfull than all the goody-two-shoes.

We have Edwin, who thanks to his amulet has more spells than sorcerers (that is quite an accomplishment)

Vici with her 65MR, 19Dex, great cleric spells and smooth, hot, black sk... erm.. yeah.. them cleric spells are great

Korgan who is just a better version of Minsc (its just a shame that Korgan ain't a Barbarian)

The remaining two slots would fit.. For example.. Haer'Delis who is more than just a bard. He is a blade! Mash defensive spin, and watch him tank everything, mad priestessess who stole power of Bhaal including. (give him stoneskins and mirror images just in case )

And the last spot.. Well, here i suggest the wild spot. For switching between thieves, quest NPCs etc. till you get to ToB and Sarevok.

Note that i did not list Jan in here. Why? Because Edwin + Kensai/Mage (just roll the goddamn sorcerer already!) + Jan would be too much, too easy, too fast. But that's just my opinion

Edit :

For one thing, it means I don't have to lose a party member during the Ascension fight because Mel turns Imoen against me.

Just wow. HAVE MY BABIES!

Edit 2 : If we're talking about vanilla Tactics and vanilla Ascension, then remember that those have.. additional fun stuff on Insane!

(spoiler)

Spoiler

How fun is fighting Irenicus party in hell? Fun as hell!
How about giving each enemy the ability to spawn another enemies! Irenicus spawning 2 liches every now and then? + 2 wyverns, mordenkeinen swords, beholders and shades? More fun!

(/spoiler)

[willsanders84]

Interesting, interesting. I've recently gone through a similar process, and ended up with a goody-two-shoes tactical party: Beserker/Cleric, Jaheira, Aerie, Imoen. My thinking was to envolve as many dual/multi-classes as possible and create something flexible and effective, whilst, and most importantly, keeping role playing elements.

For example, when I click on my illusionist/thief, I don't want him burping. A grunt would be fine, but burping? Well. You get my drift. And neutral? Who IS neutral? Jaheira I can almost understand becsue she's a sour b**ch, and nature is most definately neutral. Anyway.

So I wanted access to every spell in the game. And I've got it and some with four characters. Thieving, magic, melee - all covered. Plus I'm taking my sister (who wouldn't).

HOWEVER, were I to go for tactics, I'd take Jan and Haer'Dalis most definately, on top of the four I already have.

Some might say that I'd be magic heavy, but let's break it down, I mean how often does one have to re-memorise for particular battles? There are three types of cleric, buff, healing and offensive. Four if you count the divining spells.

SO, were I you, I'd have... (just for argument's sake)

YOU Kensai/Mage: Defensive/tank spells (stoneskin, blur, spell immunity, fieshield etc etc -KEEP IT BLUE! LOVE THE BLUE SPELLS!)

Jaheira: Healing/druid spells - if there's a druid only spell there, TAKE IT. Iron skins, the rest healing.

Aerie: Buff spells/offensive cleric. Keep it all blue except for the odd good cleric red one. Spell triggers mage/cleric. She's unique, and as so should be built to do all the things only she can.

Jan: He's a thief, so supplement that with mage spells (yes, yes, mislead). I'd keep him sneaky, you know, know allignment, shadow door. Sneaky and cheeky, that's how we like our gnomes.

Haer'Dalis: He's a fighter, so build him similarly to the Kensai/Mage. Get him into combat and get slashing, you know, stoneskin, improved haste etc etc.

Imoen: Offensive mage spells, keep it red.

So that's what I'd do were I playing tactically. You don't, in my opinion, NEED a 'tank' (well, you've got four there as far as I'm concerned anyway) and you certainly don't need Casomyr.

[RPGguy]

Jaheira: Healing/druid spells - if there's a druid only spell there, TAKE IT. Iron skins, the rest healing.

I would just add, and not to disrespect Will in any way, that some (i.e. me) considering healing with a cleric to be a waste of time. The spells aside from 'Heal' during a tactics run are a waste of precious battlefield time and too piddly even outside of battle.

Since you have all the gold in the world to buy as many potions as you want (and consuming potions mid battle gives you the HP instantaneously), I would not waste an NPC slot on a character designed to do the exact same thing, only slower.

Not a fan of healing clerics. Use them to buff up and bash stuff instead!!!

:2 cents

[willsanders84]

I agree, actually RPGguy. . Three of my four current characters regenerate. So you're right, healing spells are faily useless. However! Heal, I consider to be fairly valuable, and the anti-poison spells. If you've got a character with alot of hit points, a big fat heal can be nice.

My thinking was purely along the lines of having the flexibility to deal with any situation, for example (and a fairly obtuse example at that)

Spoiler

the demon in the cultists temple during the cult of the eyeless quest

I do also use heal occasionally, medium wounds, that sort of thing, just to avoid resting and the guilt of leaving Imoen in prison for months.

[RPGguy]

No question about Heal. It is amazing, especially when you cast it on a 150 HP character just as he's about to die. Although, I would use the slot for 'Harm' instead.

Being able to reduce any creature to 1 HP is almost cheese. I takes a bit of resistance-stripping first (Doom etc..), in order to increase the odds of a hit, but it is oh SO sweet when you pull it off.

[Rancid Sushi]

I think I like Haer'Dalis slightly over Sarevok because it means an extra set of traps. Ring of Free Action + Defensive Spin also makes him a great tank, and Sarevok just wouldn't be able to shrug off the same sort of beatings without the use of healing potions. You've sold me on Haery, I think.

But I'm still hung up about Cernd vs. Jaheira. My only real problem with Jaheira is her low wisdom (for a priest anyway) and she's multi-class, which means that it takes longer for her to get those nice 7th level druid spells and even when she does, she has fewer slots than Cernd would. Still, I can't deny that she's a better fighter, and therefore slightly more versatile than Cernd. I still haven't made up my mind here, but it doesn't matter yet because I plan on doing Trademeet after most Athkatla quests are done given the difficulty of Improved Druid Grove and Faldorn (Tactics). Note: Despite Faldorn's insane abilities, she still dies to Cernd in the pit fight if he's out of the party and you ask him to fight Faldorn for you. He must have something like Imoen's Belt which prevents him from dying because last time he took somewhere around 200 points of damage and still didn't die.

[Stworca]

Yet another reason to NOT have Cernd in party!

[RPGguy]

Yet another reason to NOT have Cernd in party!

Stworca, do you see that dude in my avatar box right now? He found your comment funnier than I did.

:laugh:

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Jaheira gets Harm + Critical Strike...'nuff said. I have Cernd with the shapeshifted spellcasting Tweak and he rocks, but ultimately Jaheira dual-wielding Belm and whatever main hand weapon takes your fancy is just a dervish of death (and she's quite fetching in Black Dragon scale)...
Jan FTW! Spike Traps + UAI, and backstab to boot...and those Bruiser Mates are surprisingly good, on my last run through (non-Tactics) I had him using them, a heap of Sahuaguin bolts (1d12 damage - equip these and he's basically firing 2-handed swords with a possible stun effect), and the Bolts of Biting with the Crossbow of Speed and he ended up with the most kills after my way overlevelled PC.

As far as spell distribution goes, you just need to give the right spells to the right people. Your kensage is a tank, so give him your buffing/melee battle-spells, Aerie is a group buffer, sequencer/contingency death machine, and general caster, Jan is a sneaky-caster and backup group mage.
I'd go with Will's take, maybe with Minsc (for the banter with Jan and so the poor guy can complete his dajemma) in place of Immy (who's kinda redundant with Jan and 2 other mages).

[Rancid Sushi]

Nice thoughts Grasshopper. I was actually thinking of giving Jaheira fire immunity (not difficult with Red Dragon Scales, Ring of Fire Res etc.) and having her use Club of Detonation which should be useful in any TOB encounter than has massed enemies (there are plenty). My tanks should be able to shrug off the fire (use some scrolls/healing potions) and my casters won't be close enough to get hit anyway. Similar tactic is Sanchuudoku + Death Fog which I can start using much earlier, though I'd use it less often probably. So far, I think the following party has the best tactical versatility:

PC Kensai/Mage (dual-wield Celestial Fury, Sanchuudoku, later Hindo's Doom, and maybe a different weapon if I have the proficiency points to spread around).

Minsc (dual-wield Flail of Ages [and Mace of Disruption against undead] plus situation-appropriate hammer i.e Crom Faeyr, Runehammer)

Jaheira (dual wield Club of Detonation and Belm, keep Staff of Woodlands around for a good source of summons).

Jan (Starting equipment, later a good backstabber's weapon)

Aerie (Staff of the Magi)

Haer'Dalis (starting equipment with nice stat drain. Later a pair of longswords because he eventually gets specialization in them automatically).

Further thoughts anyone?

[Stworca]

Just one. Defender of Easthaven > Crom Faeyr in offhand. For the tougher fights.

[Edar Macilrille]

Bump, this thread should not really be lost when it can help so many.

[Rancid Sushi]

I'm finding that Aerie with Vhailor's Helm + Protection from Magic scrolls wins battles against improved spellcasters. Against Liches though, you should also cast Protection from Evil 10' so your low-level party doesn't get destroyed by the Pit Fiend.

[Rancid Sushi]

Well, I'm here at the final battle in SoA and now I'd like to present a retrospective as I go into ToB. First, let's look at which party members shined and which ones didn't

Winners

PC Kensai/Mage: Jeezum Bloody Crow, this class is just plain broken with Sanchuudoku. Fit him with a few choice spells, and there's nothing that can stop this guy. He destroyed everything that got in his way. Robe of Vecna + Breach at point blank range is great for killing spellcasters before they even have time to figure out what happened to their protections. I could have soloed most of this game, and it would have been only slightly more challenging at some parts.

Minsc: Dualling FoA and Crom, this guy really brings the pain and is a nice compliment to my other main tank. Armor of Faith makes him even harder to kill, and berserker rage served well in some occasions.

Jaheira: Insect Plague and Call Woodland Beings are great spells in Tactics. Jaheira was instrumental in shutting down many spellcasters, and her summons (later Greater Elemental) proved very useful in evening the odds in some battles where spellcasters like to bring lots of helpers along.

Aerie: Vast array of spells meant that she had something for every occasion and the tactical options made things much easier. With Vhailor's Helm, I was able to reuse game-breaking items like Protection from Magic scrolls over and over again, even in the last battle to disable Irenicus from casting most spells.

Losers

Haer'Dalis: To be fair to Haery, it wasn't his fault. By no means is Haer'Dalis useless, it's just that there wasn't much that he could do that my PC and Minsc could not. In the end, he was just sucking up experience points mostly. I'm seriously considering replacing Minsc with Haery next time to a) have less divide in experience and b) be able to use more traps. They would have been most helpful in the final battle.

Jan: His usefulness really drops off in the latter stages of the game. Sure, he was great for backstabbing, but there comes a point where I'd rather just have Imoen casting spells rather than having Jan trying to backstab all the time. When you can load 3 ADHW into a Chain Contingency with Imoen, backstab just looks like it's all style and no substance.

I think one of my biggest mistakes was going with 6 characters. It really wasn't necessary, and everyone's levels suffered because of it. One or two levels for each party member can make all the difference in a mod like this. I'm starting over to test out some different strategies, and even invoke more cheese. I've made a Lawful Neutral Kensai/Mage so he can summon the pick-pocketing ferret familiar and abuse the rod you use to kill the Unseeing Eye. Yes, I have become quite shameless with my cheese thanks to Tactics.