"Miss" Monk

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Tue May 25, 2010 6:37 am

I just reinstalled this the other day and started a monk character..had never played one. Needless to say, I'm used to either blowing stuff up with fire or being a tank walking around in metal gear solid..lol. So the idea of being unarmored and having no weapons except for my fists of fury has me a little nervous.

I am now level 8. Until recently, like level 6, I was doing OK. I got my first +1 robes and +1 monk gloves and appeared to be doing ok. However, the last two quests I am on for the City Watch

Spoiler

the warehouse and the merchant escort quest

in the Merchant Quarter I have really been getting pummelled rather badly...like two shot dead bad.

I didn't see any real mention of a "monk build" and as I've started this guy I'm not looking to restart (unless I have to). But anyone that has experience with a monk... any pointers on what to build up as I level? I'm focusing on Dexterity (18) and Wisdom (17) but not neglecting Strength (16). Other skills are 10 rated. Feats, Tumble is 15 and my top stat. Armor currently is 22 which is in line with my other NPC party members. My attack Bonuses are +10/+1-/+5 and my damage is 1-10 +3 with a bonus +1 Electrical damage.

Just seems strange the tide turned on me so quickly though.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Tue May 25, 2010 7:26 am

Hm. Dexterity and Wisdom have the same AC effect as long as you remain unarmoured. Instead of raising them both really high, stop to think which you would rather have: better Willpower or better Reflex saves. That means (perhaps) that you can neglect one of them a little in favour of a little extra constitution. Note that Monks score generally o.k. saves and already get extra spell resistances as they level. I would choose slighly less Wisdom.

If this just isn't working out and you're not keen on restarting, consider a level in Shadow Dancer. Being able to use Hide in Plain Sight makes it much easier to take five and recuperate, and allows you to better determine who you want to attack when.

Decalies · Post by **Decalies** » Tue May 25, 2010 2:08 pm

Do you use the special abilities of the monk? If I recall correctly, I fairly often used the knockdown ability for instance combined with flurry of blows or power attack,
By the way, a popular combination of classes is Monk/Bard/Red Dragon Disciple as that prestige class gives some hefty bonuses on STR and AC.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Tue May 25, 2010 2:30 pm

Decalies wrote:Do you use the special abilities of the monk? If I recall correctly, I fairly often used the knockdown ability for instance combined with flurry of blows or power attack,
By the way, a popular combination of classes is Monk/Bard/Red Dragon Disciple as that prestige class gives some hefty bonuses on STR and AC.

Only problem is the alignment: Bards can't be Lawful, Monks have to be.

If you restart, dump CHA: you don't need it. STR is your friend: it determines hit & damage, and saves a feat on Weapon Finesse. (Which doesn't raise damage.)

Power Attack & Flurry of Blows don't mix: you have to select either.

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Wed May 26, 2010 7:11 am

If you have not yet bought circle kick as a feat, get it as soon as possible. That free attack it gives you is a godsend when you are surrounded. monks can attack up to 5 times a round, so there is a near certainty of it triggering once per round. Don't neglect your "sense skills". Getting 2 shotted almost sounds like you are getting backstabbed. I know the city watch quest line involves going up against a lot of stalkers at points.

That's all I got.

Elrohir. · Post by **Elrohir.** » Wed May 26, 2010 8:32 am

I also believe its the sneak attackers giving you trouble.

Other than that, remember to get boots of sun soul asap you see them. You can find boots of sun soul +4 right at the start of act 2 in blacklake district temple. The Gnome merchant in docks sells +1.

Also if you have elanee you can use Cat's Grace and Owl's Wisdom (+4 ac right there) and barkskin (3-5) for more ac. They all have a great duration aswell (especially if extended), together will Bull's strength or a str increasing item (like Gloves of ironfist) and (greater) flurry you'll be kicking butts.

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Wed May 26, 2010 9:01 am

Haven't made it to Blacklake yet..so I'll keep an eye out for that.

So, if I restart to optimize my stats:
STR: 18
DEX: 15
CONS: 15
WIS: 12
Others at minimum.

Thinking a half orc to get the added strength bump +2 as well.

Don't see Circle Kick available yet. Don't even see it listed under Feats in the strat guide.

Decalies · Post by **Decalies** » Wed May 26, 2010 1:03 pm

True enough, bard doens't work. So no Bard level but sorcerer then for getting red disciple... And indeed you can't mix power attack with flurry of blows.

And circle kick is certainly a very useful feat! I remember that getting that feat made a big difference in the game.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Wed May 26, 2010 5:53 pm

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/never ... 11738.html

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Thu May 27, 2010 7:28 am

While circle kick is not a monk skill per ce, you need advanced unarmed strike and +3 to attack and +15 dex to get it. Maybe at level 8 you don't have the prerequisites yet. I seem to remember having it by that stage of the game though. It in the guide under "general feats"

Diamonddrago · Post by **Diamonddrago** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:46 pm

lol...wow....so much planning.....:speech:

i just hit the recommend button when upgrading the skills and character points.....

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:12 am

Diamonddrago wrote:lol...wow....so much planning.....:speech:

i just hit the recommend button when upgrading the skills and character points.....

By planning out your character, even if not in detail but just so you have an idea of where you are going with it, can add a new dimension to the game and it can be fun playing with characters that are a bit different or not the usual kind of build.

Diamonddrago · Post by **Diamonddrago** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:42 am

mr_sir wrote:By planning out your character, even if not in detail but just so you have an idea of where you are going with it, can add a new dimension to the game and it can be fun playing with characters that are a bit different or not the usual kind of build.

lol....i am not criticizing you guys.....just jealous i don't have the capacity to imagine and plan out my chars like you guys.....

i just cannot seem to commit to em.....

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:52 pm

Diamonddrago wrote:lol....i am not criticizing you guys.....just jealous i don't have the capacity to imagine and plan out my chars like you guys.....

i just cannot seem to commit to em.....

For some builds it can "make or break" the gaming experience.

The D&D/Planescape rules, structure, and lore for gaming has no peer, it's *vastly* more sophisticated than most games.

It achieves a level of multi-balance that is not dissimilar from the classic "rock/paper/scissors".

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:22 pm

Euhm... Balance? In something D&D?

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:21 pm

GawainBS wrote:Euhm... Balance? In something D&D?

Yes!

Fighter beats Rogue, Rogue beats Wizard, Wizard beats Fighter.

Seeing a similarity to rock/paper/scissors?

Also, consider all the wildly different builds, attack methods, and defenses available.. THEN add-in equipment. THEN add in single opponent vs. multi-opponent. THEN add-in level. THEN add-in single party or multi-party. etc. etc. etc.

Now compare all that to various battles and other game-play experiences throughout a module/campaign. The difficulty, *despite* the vast number of variables, is often remarkably "even". Of course some encounters will be easier for some builds than others, but again, that's part of the "rock/paper/scissors" dynamic - AND it can largely be "evened-out" with multi-party composed of different builds from different "disciplines".

Diamonddrago · Post by **Diamonddrago** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:40 am

Scottg wrote:Yes!

Fighter beats Rogue, Rogue beats Wizard, Wizard beats Fighter.

Seeing a similarity to rock/paper/scissors?

Also, consider all the wildly different builds, attack methods, and defenses available.. THEN add-in equipment. THEN add in single opponent vs. multi-opponent. THEN add-in level. THEN add-in single party or multi-party. etc. etc. etc.

Now compare all that to various battles and other game-play experiences throughout a module/campaign. The difficulty, *despite* the vast number of variables, is often remarkably "even". Of course some encounters will be easier for some builds than others, but again, that's part of the "rock/paper/scissors" dynamic - AND it can largely be "evened-out" with multi-party composed of different builds from different "disciplines".

I see one wrong statement here......rogues don't beat wizards.....and especially not warlocks.....

one true seeing or similar spell makes a rogue all by a mewling weak fighter.....>_<......

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:59 am

Diamonddrago wrote:I see one wrong statement here......rogues don't beat wizards.....and especially not warlocks.....

one true seeing or similar spell makes a rogue all by a mewling weak fighter.....>_<......

Nope..

See the gameplay notes here:

True Seeing - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki - Races, classes, skills, and more

Warlocks are a bit different because they are a "hybrid", as are Clerics, Druids, Favored Souls, Spirit Shamans, etc..

The biggest difference with equal level is the hit dice:

Hit die - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki - Races, classes, skills, and more

Wizards and Sorcerers don't have many hit points, and a couple of Sneak Attack hits can kill a Wizard or Sorcerer of equal level.

CRITICALLY - Of course a Wizard can have defenses against this, but that's under the preconception that they do, and usually the implication that they know a Rogue is even there. (..the same could be said for True Seeing if it actually worked to detect a Stealth character.. You would first need to know that someone was "there" to then activate True Seeing - because it, and most spells, are not persistent spells - instead having a limited duration.)

Another way you can observe the dynamic between Rogue and Wizard is the spell selection for Wizard:

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Sorcerer/wizard_spell_list

There are basically 2 types of direct damage spells:
1. target, and
2. area effect.

All the target spells require the ability to spot the Rogue, which as noted can be difficult.

*Most* of the area effect damage spells have reflex save components, and usually Rogues have a high reflex save + Evasion to avoid the damage completely.

The exceptions are:

Level 4: Evards (though it has an AC component and is unlikely to hit a Rogue of equal value in a single casting), Ice Storm.

Level 6: Acid Fog, Circle of Death (which won't work on a Rogue of equal level).

Level 8: Horrid Wilting, Sunburst (..which has gimped damage).

Level 9: Burst of Glacial Wrath, Weird, Wail of the Banshee.

(..obviously the higher in level, the more powerful the Wizard, but don't forget that a Rogue should have between 8 and 9d6 of Sneak Attack per hit - with 3 attacks at these higher levels.)

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:03 am

I assume you're only talking about NWN2 balance, right? Not D&D on the whole? Even then, I won't go blindly for a Rogue over a Wizard or Sorcerer.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:15 am

GawainBS wrote:I assume you're only talking about NWN2 balance, right? Not D&D on the whole? Even then, I won't go blindly for a Rogue over a Wizard or Sorcerer.

What I was describing is the "root" process for D&D.

What we have today is still based on this, if far more complex.

..hmm, "blindly" for a Rogue over a Wizard?

That's pretty much the whole point, each builder tries to improve upon the most basic build for a particular discipline (..for any given level).

In other words someone can "shift" a Wizard's build in their favor, but at the same time another can "shift" a Rogues build in their favor.

In NWN2.. the game doesn't "break" the root dynamic, but it does break the *usefulness* of a Rogue character with weak traps, weak locks, and a multitude of critically immune opponents (..and in fact far more multi-opponent encounters than single-opponent encounters).